Many Germans feel a special bond to Russia

[Endovelico]

Chechenia is a strictly Russian problem which wouldn't affect us in Europe.

Another example, then. Transnistria - a stick to beat Moldova and Ukraine with. It's the classic Russian scenario: you take a piece of one country and give it to a neighbor. A strip of land that should have gone to Ukraine, was given to the Moldavian Soviet Socialist Republic because that's how you turn neighbors against each other. In 1991, Transnistria declared some sort of independence from Moldova and, much like the matryoshka dolls, the pattern was repeated on a smaller scale. With Russia (and Ukraine) backing it up, Transnistria claimed territory on the western bank of the Dniester. They don't really need that territory, they just need to make sure that Moldova can't say: "We accept your independence. Now fu*k off". That would put an end to the game and make Transnistria completely useless.

Since the European Union is trying to get Moldova into the fold, that makes it our problem.

Should I mention that the Moldovan government has asked NATO to train its army? That's probably Nuland's doing.

I don't think that Transnistria is particularly important to Russia. And Moldova could easily neutralize the threat if it decided to rejoin Romania. I may be naive but I think that achieving a proper working relationship with an independent Europe would be more important to Russia than some more pieces of pretty useless real estate. It's Europe's stupid submission to American policy(?) that makes those odd pieces of real estate seem important.

[YMix]

I don't think that Transnistria is particularly important to Russia.

In itself? No. It's what Russia can do with it that matters.

And Moldova could easily neutralize the threat if it decided to rejoin Romania.

No, that would simply dump the whole thing on another country with the same leverage against Russia. This problem can't be solved because one of the sides involved does not want it solved.

I may be naive but I think that achieving a proper working relationship with an independent Europe would be more important to Russia than some more pieces of pretty useless real estate.

Maybe, maybe not. This is Russia's way of controlling the near abroad.

It's Europe's stupid submission to American policy(?) that makes those odd pieces of real estate seem important.

The game has been going on for many years, before the USA dropped by. Many of these decisions designed to turn neighboring people against each other were made in the 1920s, when the Soviets took control of the Caucasus region. For more examples see:

- Nagorno-Karabakh and the Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic (Armenia vs. Azerbaijan)
- South Ossetia (Georgia vs. separatists)
- Abkhazia (Georgia vs. separatists)

[Endovelico]

The game has been going on for many years, before the USA dropped by. Many of these decisions designed to turn neighboring people against each other were made in the 1920s, when the Soviets took control of the Caucasus region. For more examples see:

- Nagorno-Karabakh and the Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic (Armenia vs. Azerbaijan)
- South Ossetia (Georgia vs. separatists)
- Abkhazia (Georgia vs. separatists)

In all three cases the locals wanted to get away from their rulers. Had the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh been happy as part of Azerbaijan, or the population of South Ossetia and Abkhazia been happy as Georgians and there wouldn't have been any foreign (Armenian and Russian) intervention. So you can't really blame Russia for those conflicts.

[Mr. Perfect]

.

Never understood why West, Europe, and now America, anti Russian

I'll try to help. It is very complicated and schizophrenic.

Europeans view Russians as inbred funny looking redneck low IQ mongrel slavics; but, they turn out high percentage of alpha male. You cannot survive that country without toughness and grit, as oppose to epicure soft skinned European wine sippers.

Remember, western leftists are prisses, eastern leftists are skullcrackers, prisses or beta male submits to alpha male.

So western leftists are schizo on the issue. Despise and submit and admire.

American right sees Russia as the traditional seat of totalitarian collectivism and a power competitor. American right likes to compete in the ring, American and Euro left are more submissive. They submit to alpha types, Americans compete with them. American right very alpha male.

Just a basic overview. More to it of course.

Communism gone ..

No. Never gone. Most leftists are communists without any guts. They submit to full communists whenever they present themselves.

Putin's Russia and Russian Orthodox Church is the flag bearer of "conservatism" and "traditional values"

Still early.

West is sinking drowning in decadence and social perversion .. all western traditional values are under attack by those historically enemy of culture and civilization

Yup. Western leftism. It's about drugs and sex and paying for it with someone else's money. Moral death spiral. Darwin waits.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

Never understood why West, Europe, and now America, anti Russian

I'll try to help. It is very complicated and schizophrenic.

Europeans view Russians as inbred funny looking redneck low IQ mongrel slavics; but, they turn out high percentage of alpha male. You cannot survive that country without toughness and grit, as oppose to epicure soft skinned European wine sippers.

Remember, western leftists are prisses, eastern leftists are skullcrackers, prisses or beta male submits to alpha male.

So western leftists are schizo on the issue. Despise and submit and admire.

American right sees Russia as the traditional seat of totalitarian collectivism and a power competitor. American right likes to compete in the ring, American and Euro left are more submissive. They submit to alpha types, Americans compete with them. American right very alpha male.

Just a basic overview. More to it of course.

Communism gone ..

No. Never gone. Most leftists are communists without any guts. They submit to full communists whenever they present themselves.

Putin's Russia and Russian Orthodox Church is the flag bearer of "conservatism" and "traditional values"

Still early.

West is sinking drowning in decadence and social perversion .. all western traditional values are under attack by those historically enemy of culture and civilization

Yup. Western leftism. It's about drugs and sex and paying for it with someone else's money. Moral death spiral. Darwin waits.

Knew, we more agree than disagree .. on the same page

though, would not agree with your "Europeans view of Russians" ENTIRELY .. those Russian "inbred funny looking redneck low IQ mongrel slavics" fertile ground for Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Dostoevsky and Chekhov .. Russians are the biggest art lovers and connoisseurs and artist in all domains, literature, Music, painting and and and, they very passionate .. Europe feels and appreciates those attributes much more intensely than you guys

and

add to "Western leftism" the "Modernism" scam .. comet push to shove, they morph into "liberal democrat"

West has become a "runaway train", for sure will lead to social/cultural "Rupture"
.

[Doc]

.

Never understood why West, Europe, and now America, anti Russian

I'll try to help. It is very complicated and schizophrenic.

Europeans view Russians as inbred funny looking redneck low IQ mongrel slavics; but, they turn out high percentage of alpha male. You cannot survive that country without toughness and grit, as oppose to epicure soft skinned European wine sippers.

Remember, western leftists are prisses, eastern leftists are skullcrackers, prisses or beta male submits to alpha male.

[/quote]

And if you don't believe that just watch some MSNBC round table discussions After all seeing is believing

So western leftists are schizo on the issue. Despise and submit and admire.

I remember watching one of the PBS new discussion shows right after the Iron Curtain fell. They seemed stumped on this for about a minute. After all the revolutions were clearly populist Something that goes against western leftist philosophy in a very deep way. After about a minute of staring into the flood lights the talking heads on the show all leftists mutually decided that the communists were actually harled line extreme conservative right wingers. And that explained everything for them. They had quite a mutual congratulation there after for being so smart to figure that one out.

American right sees Russia as the traditional seat of totalitarian collectivism and a power competitor. American right likes to compete in the ring, American and Euro left are more submissive. They submit to alpha types, Americans compete with them. American right very alpha male.

Just a basic overview. More to it of course.

Communism gone ..

No. Never gone. Most leftists are communists without any guts. They submit to full communists whenever they present themselves.

Putin's Russia and Russian Orthodox Church is the flag bearer of "conservatism" and "traditional values"

Still early.

West is sinking drowning in decadence and social perversion .. all western traditional values are under attack by those historically enemy of culture and civilization

Yup. Western leftism. It's about drugs and sex and paying for it with someone else's money. Moral death spiral. Darwin waits.

[Mr. Perfect]

I remember watching one of the PBS new discussion shows right after the Iron Curtain fell. They seemed stumped on this for about a minute. After all the revolutions were clearly populist Something that goes against western leftist philosophy in a very deep way. After about a minute of staring into the flood lights the talking heads on the show all leftists mutually decided that the communists were actually harled line extreme conservative right wingers. And that explained everything for them. They had quite a mutual congratulation there after for being so smart to figure that one out.

Yes I've seen that many times, Ibs even did it once. The Soviet Union was right wing. ok.

It is admittedly complicated. Like I said, Russia is an alpha culture, they seek to dominate. Ok, well sometimes the western weenie leftist confuses the with right wing alphas. They aren't. They weren't. They were left wing alphas.

It is ultimately cognitivs dissonance. They left were rooting for the SU all during the cold war, then when it failed they threw them under the bus as right wingers. Why did they support a right wing regime?

So under the bus it had to go.

[Mr. Perfect]

Knew, we more agree than disagree .. on the same page

though, would not agree with your "Europeans view of Russians" ENTIRELY .. those Russian "inbred funny looking redneck low IQ mongrel slavics" fertile ground for Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Dostoevsky and Chekhov .. Russians are the biggest art lovers and connoisseurs and artist in all domains, literature, Music, painting and and and, they very passionate .. Europe feels and appreciates those attributes much more intensely than you guys.

ENTIRELY, maybe maybe not, but what not in dispute, western leftists do not marry Russian/Slavs, just abduct and use as whores. Subhumans.

They know that.

U21GF3047cg

[manolo]

Subhumans.

Alex.

[Simple Minded]

Mr. P & Doc,

I like your concise summaries in this thread. Thanks to both of you.

Anytime anyone argues for more power over others in order to make life more fair, I an reminded of the old saw about "The desire to save others is almost always a false front for the desire to rule others."

The same old failed ideology is trotted out every generation or so with new terminology and the rationalization of "my gang can do it better!"

[Simple Minded]

And if you don't believe that just watch some MSNBC round table discussions After all seeing is believing

YES! Thank you!

I remember watching one of the PBS new discussion shows right after the Iron Curtain fell. They seemed stumped on this for about a minute. After all the revolutions were clearly populist Something that goes against western leftist philosophy in a very deep way. After about a minute of staring into the flood lights the talking heads on the show all leftists mutually decided that the communists were actually hard line extreme conservative right wingers. And that explained everything for them. They had quite a mutual congratulation there after for being so smart to figure that one out.

Thanks again! Never underestimate the ability of an ideologue to cling to their delusions in the face of reality by asserting "Well... yeah.... they failed..... but I'm a purist. They just weren't pure enough!"

[Alexis]

ENTIRELY, maybe maybe not, but what not in dispute, western leftists do not marry Russian/Slavs, just abduct and use as whores. Subhumans.

For sure, it's Westerners who organize forced prostitution gangs, not Russians.

Just as sure: it's leftist Westerners only who buy sexual services. Not rightist Westerners.

Also, all Western men marrying Russian women are rightist. Just as much of a proven fact.




... but thanks for the laugh, Mr P !

[Alexis]

.

Identity Conflict

By the way, HP, what recent territorial modification I'm not aware of has led you to put a thread about link between Germany and Russia... in the North America subforum?

- Am I to understand that Alaska has just been reunified with Rodina Mat' (Mother Country) and nobody has yet dared to tell Obama?

- Or is it that the city of Philadelphia recently was accepted as a new Land in the BundesRepublik ...and nobody in Washington noticed anything?

I'm thrilled, please explain... which one of Russia and Germany has now part of its territory in Northern America?

[YMix]

Moved.

[Parodite]

Leftist weakness and submissiveness is a result of Christian culture in which Europe has been immersed for many centuries. Nietzsche already observed and warned for the castrating effects of it.

To emulate Christ is easy for gay males but hard for those with some testosterone left in their bodies. Inevitably, a religious castration program applied to entire populations over generations, will blow back at one point where hot testosterone magma erupts at one place or other. Usually a dick-tator who understands that enough is enough, that people want to have their erected dicks march forward and spray around semen.

Christian weakness and its offshoot, leftist liberalism and multi-culti ... where cheek to cheek is offered and butt-spread inviting alpha males to f*ck-rape whatever holes are available, will however only last for so long as it lasts. This is even more so an issue in Islam, where submission is really core. To bend down on your knees to Mecca.. with your ass up and available... is begging for future testosterone retaliation and invasive violence. Plenty of that in the Islamic world too.

Mr. P. you blame the wrong guys! for Chrissake

[Heracleum Persicum]

Knew, we more agree than disagree .. on the same page

though, would not agree with your "Europeans view of Russians" ENTIRELY .. those Russian "inbred funny looking redneck low IQ mongrel slavics" fertile ground for Tchaikovsky, Rachmaninoff, Dostoevsky and Chekhov .. Russians are the biggest art lovers and connoisseurs and artist in all domains, literature, Music, painting and and and, they very passionate .. Europe feels and appreciates those attributes much more intensely than you guys.

ENTIRELY, maybe maybe not, but what not in dispute, western leftists do not marry Russian/Slavs, just abduct and use as whores. Subhumans.

They know that.

U21GF3047cg

A few observation about the above


- if , point is, Russian girls are sluts, it ain't so : Countries Ranked on Promiscuity .. Ukraine 36, Russia not even on the list .. US # 22, ahead of french

- if the point is, Russian girls whores : if so, the criminal are ones forcing them to prostitution, the girls are the "victims" .. the perpetrators go unpunished, you blame the victims .. Pimps Enslave White Women


- if the point is prostitutes bad girls, say this to "college girls" earning their tuition in spring brake in Reno "cut houses"

Russian girls passionate and warm, neither sluts nor whores


Reminds me to that "Pederast" calling himself "Spengler" on ATOL saying Iranian woman all prostitutes

Pfui, MP

Imagine, if some nation had killed 25 million of your people and destroyed 5/8 of your country, pushed "Stalingrad" into cannibalism to survive, if this was done to America, what would America have done ? ? well, Japan did not do to America even 1% of that and got 2 nuclear bomb dropped on their civilians

What did Russians do to Germany ? ? not much

.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

Identity Conflict

By the way, HP, what recent territorial modification I'm not aware of has led you to put a thread about link between Germany and Russia... in the North America subforum?

- Am I to understand that Alaska has just been reunified with Rodina Mat' (Mother Country) and nobody has yet dared to tell Obama?

- Or is it that the city of Philadelphia recently was accepted as a new Land in the BundesRepublik ...and nobody in Washington noticed anything?

I'm thrilled, please explain... which one of Russia and Germany has now part of its territory in Northern America?

Thanx Alexis for the question

Each time I want to post anything .. a news, an article, a political analysis, a clip .. I think where best to post it

IMO, best where to post, is not the letter of the news or analysis or article, but where that news or article or analysis best relates to the heart of the matter .. where the issue of the post will hit the root

German public distancing from America and having warm feelings toward Russia already known, effecting Europe's future direction since long long time

but

It will also effect American foreign policy toward Europe AND Middle East BIG

That's why I posted this in America thread and somebody moved it to Europe thread

I think it belong to America thread

.

[Alexis]

Leftist weakness and submissiveness is a result of Christian culture in which Europe has been immersed for many centuries. Nietzsche already observed and warned for the castrating effects of it.

To emulate Christ is easy for gay males but hard for those with some testosterone left in their bodies. Inevitably, a religious castration program applied to entire populations over generations, will blow back at one point where hot testosterone magma erupts at one place or other. Usually a dick-tator who understands that enough is enough, that people want to have their erected dicks march forward and spray around semen.

Christian weakness and its offshoot, leftist liberalism and multi-culti ... where cheek to cheek is offered and butt-spread inviting alpha males to f*ck-rape whatever holes are available, will however only last for so long as it lasts. This is even more so an issue in Islam, where submission is really core. To bend down on your knees to Mecca.. with your ass up and available... is begging for future testosterone retaliation and invasive violence. Plenty of that in the Islamic world too.

My, Parodite, this was good!

Either it's intended as a parody, in which case: congratulations!
Or it's not intended to, in which case I would respectfully submit (yes... ) that you need to get rid of an obsessive attraction-repulsion to passive anal sex.

[Doc]

I remember watching one of the PBS new discussion shows right after the Iron Curtain fell. They seemed stumped on this for about a minute. After all the revolutions were clearly populist Something that goes against western leftist philosophy in a very deep way. After about a minute of staring into the flood lights the talking heads on the show all leftists mutually decided that the communists were actually harled line extreme conservative right wingers. And that explained everything for them. They had quite a mutual congratulation there after for being so smart to figure that one out.

Yes I've seen that many times, Ibs even did it once. The Soviet Union was right wing. ok.

It is admittedly complicated. Like I said, Russia is an alpha culture, they seek to dominate. Ok, well sometimes the western weenie leftist confuses the with right wing alphas. They aren't. They weren't. They were left wing alphas.

It is ultimately cognitivs dissonance. They left were rooting for the SU all during the cold war, then when it failed they threw them under the bus as right wingers. Why did they support a right wing regime?

So under the bus it had to go.

This is not all that complicated. The Soviet Union was a s close to a pure political patronage system as there every has been. Left wing = patronage That is really all it is about Making a political machine that serves the "in" group.

[Parodite]

My, Parodite, this was good!

Either it's intended as a parody, in which case: congratulations!
Or it's not intended to, in which case I would respectfully submit (yes... ) that you need to get rid of an obsessive attraction-repulsion to passive anal sex.

Sometimes I'm not sure what I mean and why...

[Typhoon]

Russian politician orders aides to ‘violently rape’ pregnant journalist at press conference

To paraphrase Gandhi

Q: What do you think about Russian civilization?

A: I think that civilization in Russia would be a good idea.

[YMix]

Vladimir Jirinovsky

'nough said.

[Heracleum Persicum]

Russian politician orders aides to ‘violently rape’ pregnant journalist at press conference

To paraphrase Gandhi

Q: What do you think about Russian civilization?

A: I think that civilization in Russia would be a good idea.

Had this discussion a few times

Brits .. with all those atrocities and genocides in Africa, China, Middle East, biggest slave traders in human history .. Germans with not so distant genocide history .. French with Algeria, Dutch with Indonesia, Belgium with Angola and Kongo, Spaniards and and and .. you probably consider them all civilized nation

but

Russians, with non of the above, uncivilized

well, CS, you re civilization, issue not the page you on, you reading different book

.

[monster_gardener]

Russian politician orders aides to ‘violently rape’ pregnant journalist at press conference

To paraphrase Gandhi

Q: What do you think about Russian civilization?

A: I think that civilization in Russia would be a good idea.

Had this discussion a few times

Brits .. with all those atrocities and genocides in Africa, China, Middle East, biggest slave traders in human history .. Germans with not so distant genocide history .. French with Algeria, Dutch with Indonesia, Belgium with Angola and Kongo, Spaniards and and and .. you probably consider them all civilized nation

but

Russians, with non of the above, uncivilized

well, CS, you re civilization, issue not the page you on, you reading different book

.

Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

Brits .. with all those atrocities and genocides in Africa, China, Middle East, biggest slave traders in human history .. Germans with not so distant genocide history .. French with Algeria, Dutch with Indonesia, Belgium with Angola and Kongo, Spaniards and and and .. you probably consider them all civilized nation

True......*

Russians, with non of the above,

WRONG!

Russians with Holodomor
And More

The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомор, "Extermination by hunger" or "Hunger-extermination";[2] derived from 'Морити голодом', "Killing by Starvation" [3][4][5]) was a man-made famine in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1932 and 1933 that killed up to 7.5 million Ukrainians.[6] During the famine, which is also known as the "Terror-Famine in Ukraine" and "Famine-Genocide in Ukraine",[7][8][9] millions of citizens of Ukrainian SSR, the majority of whom were Ukrainians, died of starvation in a peacetime catastrophe unprecedented in the history of Ukraine.[10] Since 2006, the Holodomor has been recognized by the independent Ukraine and several other countries as a genocide of the Ukrainian people.[11]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Which is a major reason why the Little Ukrainians hate their not so Great Russian Brothers so much....

uncivilized

Recalling that the Romans used uncivilized German barbarian warriors as bodyguards because the Germans had barbaric personal honor which made them less likely to betray their employer......


Really pretty near all Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey Humans can easily become Killer Apes In their
Peculiar Ways......

Including Ukrainians.....

And Uz......

And even Persian Peacock Throners can reach a Nadir


*BTW congrats on not being a Holocaust Denier which some Iranians seem to be....

[monster_gardener]

.

Identity Conflict

Are we as deeply rooted in the West as most believe ?


'Tug-of-War' of Emotions

Our relationship to the Russians is as ambivalent as our perception of their character. "When it comes to the relations between the Germans and Russians, there is a tug-of-war between profound affection and total aversion," says German novelist Ingo Schulze, author of the critically acclaimed "Simple Stories," a novel that deals with East German identity and German reunification. Russians are sometimes perceived as Ivan the Terrible, as foreign entities, as Asians. Russians scare us, but we also see them as hospitable people. They have an enormous territory, a deep soul and culture -- their country is the country of Tchaikovsky and Tolstoy.

It's thus no wonder that the debate about Russia's role in the Ukraine crisis is more polarizing than any other issue in current German politics. For Germany, the Ukraine crisis is not some distant problem like Syria or Iraq -- it goes right to the core of the question of German identity. Where do we stand when it comes to Russia? And, relatedly: Who are we as Germans? With the threat of a new East-West conflict, this question has regained prominence in Germany and may ultimately force us to reposition ourselves or, at the very least, reaffirm our position in the West.

In recent weeks, an intense and polemical debate has been waged between those tending to sympathize with Russia and those championing a harder line against Moscow. The positions have been extreme, with one controversy breaking out after the other. The louder the voices on the one side are in condemning Russia's actions in Ukraine, the louder those become in arguing for a deeper understanding of a humbled and embattled Russia; as the number of voices pillorying Russia for violating international law in Crimea grows, so do those of Germans raising allegations against the West.

One of the main charges is that the European Union and NATO snubbed Moscow with their recent eastward expansion. Everyone seems to be getting into the debate -- politicians, writers, former chancellors and scientists. Readers, listeners and viewers are sending letters to the editor, posting on Internet forums or calling in to radio or television shows with their opinions.

"Most Germans want to understand Russia's side of things," says Jörg Baberowski, a prominent professor of Eastern European history at Berlin's Humboldt University. Historian Stefan Plaggenborg of the Ruhr University in Bochum has described the sentimental relationship between Germans and Russians as "doting love." But how is it that this connection still exists after two world wars?

Perhaps a man who grew up in East Germany can explain what links Germans and Russians: Thomas Brussig, a novelist from the former East Berlin, says he first got to know Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union when he visited during a book tour. During his stay, he recalls being constantly asked which Russian writers influenced him. Brussig didn't give the obvious answers -- Tolstoy or Dostoyevsky. He instead named a third-rate Soviet writer, Arkady Gaidar. "I did it to exact a bit of revenge and to remind them what imperialists they had been," he says.

Brussig says he has no special attachment to the Russians. He says the only Russian figure he actually views positively is Gorbachev. It was "his vision of a Common European Home that cleared the way for the demolition of the Soviet Union." It was a dream of a Europe without dividing lines. "We shouldn't act as though the border to Asia starts where Lithuania ends," says Brussig. "Europe reaches all the way into the Ural Mountains."

Romanticism and War

There are some obvious explanations for the bond between Germans and Russians: economic interests, a deeply rooted anti-Americanism in both countries on both the left and the right of the political spectrum. But those are only superficial answers -- dig a little deeper, and you'll find two other explanations: Romanticism and the war.

The war explanation is inextricably linked to German guilt. As a country that committed monstrous crimes against the Russians, we sometimes feel the need to be especially generous, even in dealing with Russia's human rights violations. As a result, many Germans feel that Berlin should temper its criticism of Russia and take a moderate position in the Ukraine crisis. It was Germany, after all, that invaded the Soviet Union, killing 25 million people with its racist war of extermination.

Hans-Henning Schröder, a Russia expert at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs describes this as Russophilia and says it is a way of compensating for Germany's Nazi past. Noted German historian Heinrich August Winkler fears Germans have adopted a "pathological learning process."

The question of guilt has created a link between Germans and Russians, but the issue evaporated fairly quickly for the Russians after the war. Unlike the French, Scandinavians and Dutch, the Russians don't tend to name and shame the Germans for crimes committed during the German occupation.

"Those who suffered the most had the least hate for the Germans," says Baberowski, as if the issue of German guilt evaporated in the first frenzy of revenge at the end of the war. He believes it dissipated, at the very latest, after the return of the last prisoners of war to Germany. "The Russians told stories that would make your blood freeze in your veins, but they were never accusatory towards us," says Schulze, who spent several months in St. Petersburg during the 1990s.

Despite the fact that German politicians exploited fears of Russia for many years in the postwar period, the war still connects Germans with Russians today. Our relationship is characterized by the "intimacy of a relationship that arose out of two wars," says Herfried Münkler, a professor of political theory at Humboldt University. He describes the war as an experience shared by both Germans and Russians. He argues that conflict creates a stronger community dynamic than peace -- and that, as a result of the war, Germans learned another thing: to never again attack Russia.

Then, of course, there are Germans' romantic ideas about Russia. The country has always been idealized by Germans. No other country was as thrilled as Germany when glasnost and perestroika ushered in the de-escalation of the East-West conflict. Finally, they felt, it was acceptable for them to love Russia again. In Gorbachev, the good Russian had returned and the Germans saw no reason to continue living in fear of Russia.

Documentary programs about the remote reaches of Siberia and the banks of the Volga River attracted large viewership numbers. In the preceding decades, works by German-language authors like Heinz Konsalik -- whose book "The Doctor of Stalingrad," dealt with German prisoners of war -- and Johannes Simmel -- whose novels delved into Cold War themes -- had been best-sellers.

"The east is a place of longing for the Germans," says Münkler. The expanse and seeming infinity of Russian space has always been the subject of a German obsession for a simpler life, closer to nature and liberated from the constraints of civilization. The millions of Germans that were expelled from Eastern Europe and forced to move to the West after 1945 fostered that feeling. To them, it represented unspoiled nature and their lost homeland.

A Tradition of Anti-Western Sentiment

The flipside to Germany's longing for Russia is its desire to differentiate itself from the West. Fundamental opposition to the West's putative superficiality is seen as being part of the Russian soul: The perceived busyness and money-grubbing ways of the Western man stand in contrast to the East's supposed depth of emotion and spirituality. "When something is romanticized, there is always an antidemocratic streak," says Baberowski. It privileges harmony over conflict, unity over confrontation.

This tradition of anti-Western thinking has a long tradition in Germany. In "Reflections of an Unpolitical Man," written during the First World War, Thomas Mann sought to strongly differentiate Germany from the West, even citing Dostoyevsky in the process. "Being German," Mann wrote, "means culture, soul, freedom, art and not civilization, society, the right to vote, literature." Mann later revised his views, but the essay remains a document for those seeking to locate Germany's position between East and West.

Winkler points to a battle between the era's German intellectuals, which pitted the "Ideas of 1914" -- propagated by Johann Plenge, and emphasizing the "German values" of duty, discipline, law and order, ideas that would later influence National Socialism -- against those of liberté, égalité, fraternité -- which were adopted in 1789 during the French Revolution.

When West Germany became politically part of the West after 1945, the Eastern way of thinking was pushed to the wayside. But Russia remained a country of longing for the East Germans. Münkler believes that the longing for Russia is also a symbol of "what we used to think but are no longer supposed to think."

A Special Role for Germany?

Henrich August Winkler argues that Germany has now arrived at the end of a "long journey to the West." But with the Ukraine crisis and the threat of a revival of the East-West conflict, that arrival now seems less final. Suddenly old questions about a special role for Germany have resurfaced. Of course, no one would throw our membership in the EU or NATO into question, but Germany's special ties to Russia -- which differentiate it from other Western European countries -- have a justifiable effect on our politics.

"The ideology of taking the position in the middle has exhausted itself," Winkler told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung newspaper in a 2011 interview. That was easy to say at a time when the East-West rivalry seemed to have disappeared. Nowadays, that's no longer the case.

If the EU manages to speak with a single voice, it remains possible that the West will be able to achieve something close to a consensus position. But if the conflict with Russia escalates and decisions have to be made about economic sanctions or the stationing of troops, the situation could get very tricky for Germany. It may also force Germans to confront the crucial question of where they stand in their relationship with Russia. It would be a tough question for Germans to dodge, given Germany's current -- voluntary or not -- de facto leadership role in Europe.

In the Ukraine crisis, the stakes for Germany are higher than for perhaps any other country in Europe. So far, Chancellor Angela Merkel and Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, have managed, with difficulty, to maintain a unified position, but cracks are already showing. Leaders of the center-left Social Democratic Party (SPD), which implemented Ostpolitik policies of detente with the East under Chancellor Willy Brandt, are far less inclined to assume the role of adversary to Russia than Merkel's conservatives. The Social Democrats have now adopted the same strategy with Putin's authoritarian regime as they did in the 1970s, when they sought a better understanding of the Communists. Their approach -- to seek a better understanding of Russia's positions -- has been a successful political model for the party.

Germans Divided over Affiliation with West

Still, a divide is growing between the political elite and those in Germany who are sympathetic towards Russia. A recent survey conducted by pollster Infratest dimap showed that almost half of all Germans want the country to adopt the middle ground between Russia and the West. In the states that belonged to the former East Germany, twice as many people as in western German states believe that Germany should adopt a special role. But even in the western states, there is only a narrow majority which believes Germany should stand firmly on the side of NATO and the EU in the conflict with Russia. It's fair to say that when it comes to question of its affiliation with the West, Germany is a divided land.

Old anti-American sentiments, intensified by the NSA spying scandal, could very well be playing a role, along with fear of an escalation in the conflict with Russia. It's unlikely that the majority of Germans want to revive the former East-West order.

As a child in West Germany, I personally feared the Russians. I couldn't sleep at night because we had, technically at least, only reached a cease-fire agreement with the Soviet Union and it sounded like the shooting would resume again after a short pause. Fortunately, there was a lot of singing in my family. Perhaps it had to do my grandfather. Maybe they wanted to provide us with an important tool for survival later in life -- just in case the Russians came. In any case, my grandfather, who had sung for years for his very survival, never spared a nasty word about the Russians.

Europe moving away from American "Weltanschauung"

Europeans look at life and everything else differently than America

Come push to shove, Europe will not be as solid on American train as you might think

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Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari......

I believe the most important special bond Germans feel with the Russian Bear is the one caused by getting ~30 to 40% of their gas & oil wants from the Bear's Gas Teat ........

If the Germans want to be Free, they may need to have a CANDU attitude and show the Russians that the Germans can Frack themselves....

Enough to satisfy their energy needs....

Instead of paying tribute to the Russian Bear......

Disguised as Gas Tariffs.......



Also has enhanced safety features......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CANDU_reactor