' Battle Against Nudity '

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Enki
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Enki »

Mr. Perfect wrote:People define freedom differently, I subscribe politically to the natural rights philosophy. Under this philosophy people are free to let me be their boss if they want to.
Sure. But the problem is when you have a scenario like we have today where you can't opt out of having a boss. That's not freedom. As I said, if I can walk down the street naked smoking a joint, I'm free. If I'm not, then I'm not free. If you oppose that, then you oppose my freedom and want to be my boss.
I just did, I came across a passage that says "thou shalt not steal". One of the earliest declarations of property rights I know of.

Jesus did not rescind that passage. :)
No, he didn't. But he did say, "Sell all your possessions give the money to the poor and follow me.", you seem to miss out on the transcendental aspirational message that Jesus was trying to inculcate.
I think so, but those policies were modified over time. Not the covering up and keep you hands off other people's stuff though, they continued on unaltered.
Funny thing about that, it's ok for ancient peoples to amend it, but not future peoples. The bible was essentially the 'law' book of the Jewish people, open to being amended. Our 'law' has been amended since too.

Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it. That's the part you don't really understand. Nudity is only bad to the degree it causes one to sin.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote: Sure. But the problem is when you have a scenario like we have today where you can't opt out of having a boss. That's not freedom. As I said, if I can walk down the street naked smoking a joint, I'm free. If I'm not, then I'm not free. If you oppose that, then you oppose my freedom and want to be my boss.
Well there is a whole other element here Tinker, and that is culture. I am constantly told that we must celebrate our differences and be accepting of other cultures. I think by this dictum it would go against multiculturalism to not celebrate clothes wearing culture wherever you find it.

No, he didn't. But he did say, "Sell all your possessions give the money to the poor and follow me.", you seem to miss out on the transcendental aspirational message that Jesus was trying to inculcate.
I think I got it just fine. Jesus wanted people not to be poor that was very clear. In this example he gave the command to one person, not all of Christianity. If he wanted all of Christianity to do that I have no doubt he would have said so.

My research shows that free enterprise and the nuclear family are the best combat against poverty. That is why I am a Republican.
Funny thing about that, it's ok for ancient peoples to amend it, but not future peoples. The bible was essentially the 'law' book of the Jewish people, open to being amended. Our 'law' has been amended since too.

Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it. That's the part you don't really understand. Nudity is only bad to the degree it causes one to sin.
Jesus certainly never said that. You are free to make up your own god laws if you want, there may just be some eventual consequences.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by noddy »

the perverts are the people who cant see a pretty chick in a bikini without frothing at the mouth, they need to learn self control and they need to learn respect.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Enki »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Well there is a whole other element here Tinker, and that is culture. I am constantly told that we must celebrate our differences and be accepting of other cultures. I think by this dictum it would go against multiculturalism to not celebrate clothes wearing culture wherever you find it.
genuflect cultures, just be accepting of individuals and the cultures will be respected by proxy. That's the genius of Libertarianism. In what other system can Communists and Republicans co-exist?
I think I got it just fine. Jesus wanted people not to be poor that was very clear. In this example he gave the command to one person, not all of Christianity. If he wanted all of Christianity to do that I have no doubt he would have said so.
I think his point had an aspirational quality that goes far beyond the fundamental notion of property ownership. Property ownership is a thing 'of the world'. And you don't seem to understand the difference between the worldly and that other thing he was referring to. Thus your obsession with the primary metaphor of accepting Jesus and the resurrection, which is in and of itself worldly, it's the portal from the world, to the other.

But if you're opening the can of worms and saying that Christ's messages were all individualized, then how can we tell what things he said that applied to us, and which things he said applied to all of Christianity? Especially considering he never used the word, "Christian", once.
My research shows that free enterprise and the nuclear family are the best combat against poverty. That is why I am a Republican.
Yes, but that's got nothing to do with freedom. You're combating poverty. You're talking about providing people with money, with goods, with services. That's not freedom. You can do all of those things without 'freedom'. And we haven't had free enterprise in this country in your or my lifetime. Do I need a professional license to be a massage therapist? Am I required to have the insurance that can only be provided through the Massage Therapist Professional Association? If so, then that's not FREE enterprise, that's tightly controlled enterprise. I have a skill, I can 'lay hands' and heal someone, as Jesus did. But if I don't keep my license current, I can be charged with a felony. Yeah...free enterprise indeed.
Jesus certainly never said that. You are free to make up your own god laws if you want, there may just be some eventual consequences.
He certainly did say that.

You just don't realize that the book you follow so strictly was redacted by the Roman Empire in order to encourage obedience and conformity. You hate Communists, a very Roman trait, though in reality what you really mean by "Communists", is the 'Eastern Empire' vs Capitalist the 'Western Empire'. You mean Roman authoritarianism vs Roman authoritarianism. Early Christians absolutely lived as Communists in that they had Democracies where people were equal and made decisions collectively.

There are all sorts of ridiculous things that absolutely don't apply to modern life and people interpret the bible however they want. It hardly mentions homosexuality, but Christians use a textual basis to hate homosexuals. It has some very strong words to say on Usury, yet those same Christians laud Capitalism which is fundamentally, a system of usury. So if I am making up my own God Laws, it would seem I am not the only one.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by monster_gardener »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Enki wrote:Clothes are decadent. Nudity is the most modest thing in existence.

That's the great irony of ironies. Clothes are the core basis of consumerism. Keep up with the Joneses, wear the required uniform, spend money on clothes.

There is nothing more modest than complete nudity.
I've always wanted to do a worship service at a nudist colony.
Whenever the congregation stands or sits it would sound like applause.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Nonc.

I once read a related story pre Web......... Not sure that is true............. But should be ;)

The Dinka people of Africa have traditionally been nude at all times in their daily lives. In modern times, some were converted to Christianity and due to the influence of Western culture began to wear clothes especially when they went to church. This began to become a problem. The church service began to be a fashion parade: more watching who was wearing what than paying attention to the sermon. The elders decided that drastic measures were needed to solve the problem. They ruled that in church at least all must be nude :shock: as they were before........................

FWIW
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Apollonius »

In the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition innocence was lost in the Garden of Eden.

It was not the curse of knowledge that came from eating the apple from the tree. Remember, it was the Tree of Life. In Norse mythology Freya tends it and the gods eat its fruit to retain their immortality. The god of the Bible was never going to allow that, so he banished Adam and Eve from the Garden. In their new-found shame at being naked they fashioned make-shift coverings from fig leaves but God didn't think that was enough and gave them leather aprons instead. We've been clothed, and literally bound, first by this leather SM god who is heavy into bondage and then by his male followers who have had a convenient scapegoat for all our troubles in a disobedient womankind ever since.


Those who have spent any time naked outdoors know that the play of the elements over the body produces an ever-changing response that reaches almost erotic intensity. The skin becomes alive and responsive and a whole new spectrum of sensations are generated. Clothe the body and this rich communion is replaced by fortuitous and often irritating contact with dead fabric. It is a huge impoverishment and its measure can perhaps best be judged by the reluctance of the Indians of Tierra del Fuego to adopt protective clothing. They lived in a climate so harsh that Darwin observed snow melting on the naked breasts of women but they preferred dermal contact with the environment, hostile though it was, to the loss of sensation which follows by wearing clothes.



Some of this, in particular that last paragraph, is paraphrased from an excellent book called The Anatomy of Nakedness by Paul Ableman (Orbis, 1982), which I don't have on hand at the moment.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Enki »

Thank you Appollonius. Once, I swam past the breaker at dawn to watch the sunrise over the Atlantic ocean while naked. It was a wonderful experience. The water was cold, but it was great.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by AzariLoveIran »

Mr. Perfect wrote:.
AzariLoveIran wrote:.

last few post attest this nothing to do with Islam or Middle East ..


viewtopic.php?f=10&t=275#p3979

.
Sorry Az, I thought thread was about nudity.

.
It is about "Nudity", Mr. Perfect

my question was, why it was moved to " The Muslim World | The Middle East "

90% of the posts have neither anything to do with Muslim world nor with Middle East


.
noddy
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by noddy »

i think azari that you implied that nudity was a western problem and it indicated a shallowness and perversity or somesuch.

most of the western guys i know are quite jaded to it, it means nothing to us... i grew up surrounded by women wearing bugger all and dont get any more sexually distracted by it than a chick in lotsof clothes, its her attitude and the way she carries herself which has the "oooh lah lah" in it.

havent got much to say about middle eastern attitudes, they are just crazy to my perspective.

i dont have a problem with burkahs and headscarves either, modest chicks and shy chicks are welcome to cover up if they feel better for it.

i do have a problem with the extended burkah (nijab?) that covers the entire face because open faces are part of respectful interaction in my culture, that gets lumped with bikies wearing bandito masks or white trash wearing hoodies and sunglasses.. my dad gets mad when people leave on sunglasses when talking to him, he loses all respect for them.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote: genuflect cultures, just be accepting of individuals and the cultures will be respected by proxy. That's the genius of Libertarianism. In what other system can Communists and Republicans co-exist?
They eventually cannot co-exist. We are watching that happen.
I think his point had an aspirational quality that goes far beyond the fundamental notion of property ownership. Property ownership is a thing 'of the world'. And you don't seem to understand the difference between the worldly and that other thing he was referring to. Thus your obsession with the primary metaphor of accepting Jesus and the resurrection, which is in and of itself worldly, it's the portal from the world, to the other.

But if you're opening the can of worms and saying that Christ's messages were all individualized, then how can we tell what things he said that applied to us, and which things he said applied to all of Christianity? Especially considering he never used the word, "Christian", once.
I don't understand any of this. Jesus never said be naked or that there are no property rights.
Yes, but that's got nothing to do with freedom. You're combating poverty.
Yup. And proud of it. Just like Jesus wants me to.
You're talking about providing people with money, with goods, with services. That's not freedom. You can do all of those things without 'freedom'.
A lot of places really, really struggle with it. It's not something I take for granted.
And we haven't had free enterprise in this country in your or my lifetime. Do I need a professional license to be a massage therapist? Am I required to have the insurance that can only be provided through the Massage Therapist Professional Association? If so, then that's not FREE enterprise, that's tightly controlled enterprise. I have a skill, I can 'lay hands' and heal someone, as Jesus did. But if I don't keep my license current, I can be charged with a felony. Yeah...free enterprise indeed.
Well, Democrats and their regulating everything. What are you going to do. I try to stop them.
He certainly did say that.

He didn't say it was ok to walk around naked.
You just don't realize that the book you follow so strictly was redacted by the Roman Empire in order to encourage obedience and conformity. You hate Communists, a very Roman trait, though in reality what you really mean by "Communists", is the 'Eastern Empire' vs Capitalist the 'Western Empire'. You mean Roman authoritarianism vs Roman authoritarianism. Early Christians absolutely lived as Communists in that they had Democracies where people were equal and made decisions collectively.
Except the ones that didn't.
There are all sorts of ridiculous things that absolutely don't apply to modern life and people interpret the bible however they want. It hardly mentions homosexuality, but Christians use a textual basis to hate homosexuals. It has some very strong words to say on Usury, yet those same Christians laud Capitalism which is fundamentally, a system of usury. So if I am making up my own God Laws, it would seem I am not the only one.
When you say usury, my study shows that means what we would call a market with a high barrier to entry. Jesus seemed to really be against market constraints.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

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Mr. Perfect wrote:
Enki wrote: Freedom means 'You're not the boss of me.' You don't seem to get that.
People define freedom differently, I subscribe politically to the natural rights philosophy. Under this philosophy people are free to let me be their boss if they want to.
Right. And if people are not free because they have no other choice or die of hunger.. you better have a good boss. One who stimulates and helps you having a choice to walk away on his/her own legs in life. Maybe as new boss or as independer. Many a boss though will be tempted to exploit the dependent worker who has no choice. How would you curve that injustice?
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Allowing as much free enterprise as possible. The healthier the economy the less likely it is to happen.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by monster_gardener »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Enki wrote: genuflect cultures, just be accepting of individuals and the cultures will be respected by proxy. That's the genius of Libertarianism. In what other system can Communists and Republicans co-exist?
They eventually cannot co-exist. We are watching that happen.
I think his point had an aspirational quality that goes far beyond the fundamental notion of property ownership. Property ownership is a thing 'of the world'. And you don't seem to understand the difference between the worldly and that other thing he was referring to. Thus your obsession with the primary metaphor of accepting Jesus and the resurrection, which is in and of itself worldly, it's the portal from the world, to the other.

But if you're opening the can of worms and saying that Christ's messages were all individualized, then how can we tell what things he said that applied to us, and which things he said applied to all of Christianity? Especially considering he never used the word, "Christian", once.
I don't understand any of this. Jesus never said be naked or that there are no property rights.
Yes, but that's got nothing to do with freedom. You're combating poverty.
Yup. And proud of it. Just like Jesus wants me to.
You're talking about providing people with money, with goods, with services. That's not freedom. You can do all of those things without 'freedom'.
A lot of places really, really struggle with it. It's not something I take for granted.
And we haven't had free enterprise in this country in your or my lifetime. Do I need a professional license to be a massage therapist? Am I required to have the insurance that can only be provided through the Massage Therapist Professional Association? If so, then that's not FREE enterprise, that's tightly controlled enterprise. I have a skill, I can 'lay hands' and heal someone, as Jesus did. But if I don't keep my license current, I can be charged with a felony. Yeah...free enterprise indeed.
Well, Democrats and their regulating everything. What are you going to do. I try to stop them.
He certainly did say that.

He didn't say it was ok to walk around naked.
You just don't realize that the book you follow so strictly was redacted by the Roman Empire in order to encourage obedience and conformity. You hate Communists, a very Roman trait, though in reality what you really mean by "Communists", is the 'Eastern Empire' vs Capitalist the 'Western Empire'. You mean Roman authoritarianism vs Roman authoritarianism. Early Christians absolutely lived as Communists in that they had Democracies where people were equal and made decisions collectively.
Except the ones that didn't.
There are all sorts of ridiculous things that absolutely don't apply to modern life and people interpret the bible however they want. It hardly mentions homosexuality, but Christians use a textual basis to hate homosexuals. It has some very strong words to say on Usury, yet those same Christians laud Capitalism which is fundamentally, a system of usury. So if I am making up my own God Laws, it would seem I am not the only one.
When you say usury, my study shows that means what we would call a market with a high barrier to entry. Jesus seemed to really be against market constraints.
Thank you Very Much for your posts Tinker Enki & Mr. Perfect.

FWIW IIRC C.S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity" opines that based on the Scriptures, a truly Christian society would seem rather right wing socially but rather left wing economically. In particular Lewis mentions that usury is condemned by both the Scriptures and the pagan philosophers........ Mentions that he has heard the "modern times" argument: that "investment" is different than usury etc........... FWIW

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_Christianity

NOTE: The discussion of usury is not mentioned in the wiki link about but is in the book.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Mr. Perfect »

monster_gardener wrote:FWIW IIRC C.S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity" opines that based on the Scriptures, a truly Christian society would seem rather right wing socially but rather left wing economically.
Well he was half right. :)
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

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Mr. Perfect wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:FWIW IIRC C.S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity" opines that based on the Scriptures, a truly Christian society would seem rather right wing socially but rather left wing economically.
Well he was half right. :)
Well, medieval monasteries were probably as close to truly Christian societies as one c geouldt and they were essentially communes, so I have to agree that C.S. Lewis was half right.

If one retrospectively applies the prevailing US left - right dialectic, then they were rather left wing both socially and economically.

On the other hand, whatever that "God wants you to be rich" stuff, popular in the US, is, it's not certainly Christianity.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by noddy »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
monster_gardener wrote:FWIW IIRC C.S. Lewis in "Mere Christianity" opines that based on the Scriptures, a truly Christian society would seem rather right wing socially but rather left wing economically.
Well he was half right. :)
i always wondered why i didnt like lewis and a penny has dropped now.

this sounds like that joke that ends with the punchline of the english doing the cooking, the french doing the engineering and the germans doing the comedy.
Last edited by noddy on Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Typhoon »

noddy wrote:the perverts are the people who cant see a pretty chick in a bikini without frothing at the mouth, they need to learn self control and they need to learn respect.
Exactly.

I've always thought that Shakespeare has King Lear describe this hypocrasy of human nature best:
Thou rascal beadle, hold thy bloody hand!
Why dost thou lash that whore? Strip thine own back.
Thou hotly lusts to use her in that kind
For which thou whip'st her.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by noddy »

seeing as this thread is now about anything but the middle east or boobies.
Enki wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Well there is a whole other element here Tinker, and that is culture. I am constantly told that we must celebrate our differences and be accepting of other cultures. I think by this dictum it would go against multiculturalism to not celebrate clothes wearing culture wherever you find it.
genuflect cultures, just be accepting of individuals and the cultures will be respected by proxy. That's the genius of Libertarianism. In what other system can Communists and Republicans co-exist?
i agree with tinker and mr p here ;)

tinker, because he is dead right, libertarianism does allow any community to live to its own standards... provided they can do so on their own steam.
mr p, because he is dead right, politics is a game that has all sides always pushing their own agenda and growing it with power takeovers.

its only possible if individual communities are proud enough to work with what they can get (earn?) themselves and not always looking to the "other" for comparisons or sources of tax... quite an alien headspace for the modern westerner im sad to say... asia pacific villiagers are awesome at it, barring the odd war to get rid of the excess population.

as for comparisons to the medieval period... the last thing any of them considered likely was the "king" giving em stuff, tax money in those times didnt get back out into the community like it does now, or atleast it was harder back then to get on the public teat than it is now.

they might have behaved all socialistic internally, but only cause they lived under such a harsh right wing economic system they didnt have any choice... this is why many libertarians are oblivious to the horror stories about welfare going away, they think we would all be less socialy lazy and selfish if we couldnt get away with it..
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by AzariLoveIran »

.


well folks,

after reading last 10 post by "noddy", Typhoon", "MP" and others I wonder what this thread doing in Islam and Middle East section ?


"Nudity" is now a "cultural" phenomena that is perverted into obscenity for marketing purpose

making movies ? zero content and entirely lacking any intelligent content ? no problemo , just include to juicy sex scenes .. Bingo

this is why western movies now empty ..

Nonc Hilaire wrote:.

In my opinion the person who started the thread owns it, and they have a right to decide what to do with it and what defines hijacking (moving away from the original purpose of the thread). They are the primary moderator of the threads they create.

.

.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Marcus »

AzariLoveIran wrote:this is why western movies now empty ..
Well said, ALI, and exactly why we use Netflix.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Parodite »

dDtisgnSZCc
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Typhoon wrote: Well, medieval monasteries were probably as close to truly Christian societies as one c geouldt and they were essentially communes, so I have to agree that C.S. Lewis was half right.
Monasteries were full of hermits and celibates, which I can't find any support for in either the OT or NT.
If one retrospectively applies the prevailing US left - right dialectic, then they were rather left wing both socially and economically.
I don't know any left wingers for celibacy and family friendly culture. Rather the opposite. :)

I also find no reference to government planned central economies in the OT or NT.

I find no relation between leftist thought and Christianity, none at all.
On the other hand, whatever that "God wants you to be rich" stuff, popular in the US, is, it's not certainly Christianity.
I know Jesus wanted to alleviate poverty, he certainly did not want people in poverty. He constantly spoke against poverty. One needs money to overcome poverty, lots of it sometimes. The Bible speaks of prospering people, some people need to think big in order to get out of the situation they are in. I would not deprive them of whatever they need to hear to get out of the various bad situations they are in, within reason.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by YMix »

Mr. Perfect wrote:Monasteries were full of hermits and celibates, which I can't find any support for in either the OT or NT.
"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman." - Corinthians 7:1

See the rest of chapter 7.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Mr. Perfect »

All the other chapters of the bible fill in the concept.
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Re: ' Battle Against Nudity '

Post by Parodite »

YMix wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:Monasteries were full of hermits and celibates, which I can't find any support for in either the OT or NT.
"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman." - Corinthians 7:1

See the rest of chapter 7.
But most importantly this CAVEAT added:

"But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
1 Corinthians 7:9
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