Should you love thy neighbour as thyself?

[manolo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Commandment

Folks,

It is generally accepted that the second greatest commandment in the Christian religion is to "Love thy neighbour as thyself."
Not an easy one. Which of us can say that we put the needs and interests of others on a par with our own needs and interests? I guess there are devoted socialists and communists who seem to achieve this level of selflessness, but for the rest of us it is a very hard call. How many of us have not wanted just a little more advantage for ourselves than for our neighbours?

This is difficult. Anyone disagree?

Alex.

[Nonc Hilaire]

It's beyond difficult. It's almost impossible, even for the saints amongst us.

Jesus said the entirety of the law hangs on this commandment, and on the commandment to fully love God. This gives the Christian a workable two point spiritual litmus test instead of a list of 613 laws. One can meditate on how well these two concise commandments were put into action, and be strengthened spiritually. We fall short, we confess, we repent, we are forgiven, and we improve.

With practice, the ability to love thy neighbor becomes easier and more natural. One becomes able to better untangle ethical snarls and confusions. Loving thy neighbor is a continuum, not a pass/fail dichotomy.

[noddy]

the "dont do unto others what you dont like being done onto you" version reads better to me, makes it sound more possible and avoids the oh so over loaded with multiples defintions of contradiction called "love"

[manolo]

the "dont do unto others what you dont like being done onto you" version reads better to me, makes it sound more possible and avoids the oh so over loaded with multiples defintions of contradiction called "love"

noddy,

I like the "don't" version of the golden rule, but it still leaves us with the problem of sado masochism.

Alex.

[Endovelico]

"Should you love thy neighbour as thyself?"

Depends on how nice looking she is...

[manolo]

Jesus said the entirety of the law hangs on this commandment, and on the commandment to fully love God. This gives the Christian a workable two point spiritual litmus test instead of a list of 613 laws.

Nonc,

Something similar happens in socialism. We value humanity as an abstraction (replacing the God notion) and then have the spade work of getting on with the bloke next door. The 'two points' reinforce each other and reveal hypocrisy if it comes up (litmus test).

Alex.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Jesus said the entirety of the law hangs on this commandment, and on the commandment to fully love God. This gives the Christian a workable two point spiritual litmus test instead of a list of 613 laws.

Nonc,

Something similar happens in socialism. We value humanity as an abstraction (replacing the God notion) and then have the spade work of getting on with the bloke next door. The 'two points' reinforce each other and reveal hypocrisy if it comes up (litmus test).

Alex.

Turning a very real humanity into an abstraction is where socialism starts to run off the rails. Those who receive more than they produce start abstracting the humanity of the producers as well.

[noddy]

the "dont do unto others what you dont like being done onto you" version reads better to me, makes it sound more possible and avoids the oh so over loaded with multiples defintions of contradiction called "love"

noddy,

I like the "don't" version of the golden rule, but it still leaves us with the problem of sado masochism.

Alex.

thats puerile, of course self referential litmus tests are only as effective as the .. self.. doing .. the referencing... ermm... yes.

some ultra fundie christians have taken love to the "have to kill them to save them" extremes, many socialists think love is whinging about how government wont help the old woman next door and its never occurred to them that they could.

self referential one liners are only going to get you so far.

the usual criticism of the "dont" is that its not proactive like the love/do versions and allows for indifference but i personally believe indifference is a beautiful thing with a bad reputation, its not just halfway from love to hate its also halfway from hate to love.

[Simple Minded]

thats puerile, of course self referential litmus tests are only as effective as the .. self.. doing .. the referencing... ermm... yes.

some ultra fundie christians have taken love to the "have to kill them to save them" extremes, many socialists think love is whinging about how government wont help the old woman next door and its never occurred to them that they could.

self referential one liners are only going to get you so far.

the usual criticism of the "dont" is that its not proactive like the love/do versions and allows for indifference but i personally believe indifference is a beautiful thing with a bad reputation, its not just halfway from love to hate its also halfway from hate to love.

This is why you are my hero. Nothing is easier than proclaiming that someone else should do more.

Joe: "Of course Fred should be doing more, he's richer!"
Bill: "Really, how much are you doing?"
Joe: "I'm a 45%er (tee hee), Fred is a 30%er!"
Bill: "So, how much are you doing?"
Joe: "Fred is selfish and mean-spirited."
Bill: "So, exactly what are you doing?"
Joe: "........"

There is often such a fine line between indifference, tolerance, and love, that the observer may not be able to discern which is which.

I feel very bad for the child whose Mommy and Daddy won't let them fall down, get a bloody lip, and learn how to deal with it.
The lack of tough love may mean they remain children for life.

Maybe the same is true for God and man, or the state and man?

Those who profess to know the minds of others better than the others themselves are vain, arrogant people.

[Parodite]

I love myself 50/50... and my neighbor depending on which one. One is an 80/20 asshole.. the others are 80/20 angels so on average I comply?

[manolo]

the usual criticism of the "dont" is that its not proactive like the love/do versions and allows for indifference but i personally believe indifference is a beautiful thing with a bad reputation, its not just halfway from love to hate its also halfway from hate to love.

noddy,

I think that both the 'don't' and 'do' versions of the golden rule run into trouble with the sado masochist. It's an example of an old problem in philosophy, coming from moral subjectivism. The emotivists took it on the chin, utilitarians tried to avoid it and deontologists try a sort of trick objectivism which falls to reflective equilibrium IMHO.

Like all extant philosophical problems it remains extant.

Alex.

[Parodite]

I like people who love or hate entirely on their own terms.

[Mr. Perfect]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Commandment

Folks,

It is generally accepted that the second greatest commandment in the Christian religion is to "Love thy neighbour as thyself."
Not an easy one. Which of us can say that we put the needs and interests of others on a par with our own needs and interests? I guess there are devoted socialists and communists who seem to achieve this level of selflessness, but for the rest of us it is a very hard call. How many of us have not wanted just a little more advantage for ourselves than for our neighbours?

This is difficult. Anyone disagree?

Alex.

I don't know if this agrees or disagrees, but when in doubt as a Christian if we are confused with the instructions we can look to His example.

IE, loving oneself includes very tough love as we see with the Pharisees and Sadducees.

As for socialists and communists they seem committed to enslaving everyone to the state, impoverishing them and starving them out. I'm not calling that love.

[manolo]

I don't know if this agrees or disagrees, but when in doubt as a Christian if we are confused with the instructions we can look to His example.

IE, loving oneself includes very tough love as we see with the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Mr P,

Yup. No Mr nice guy when cornered. I've often seen this psychology with religious types.

Alex.

[Mr. Perfect]

Jesus is widely misunderstood, particularly by seculars. I'm amazed they comment on him at all.

[Parodite]

Mr.P., you come as close to a real Christian as it gets. It is an astute observation... "tough love". God loves all... but those led astray with their hearts closed and their eyes blinded are not meant to live. Old and new testament are filled with this warning, yet somehow people choose not to see and consider.

People are forgiven, get all the 2nd 3rd and 4rth chances to do better.... but only until judgment day. Then it is the sword or freedom. No matter the amount of sweetener and sugar coating modern day deluders like Nonc add to the story.. this outcome will not change. Kudos for keeping reality close to your chest Christ Warrior P.!

[Marcus]

“I, Wisdom, live together with good judgment.
I know where to discover knowledge and discernment.
13 All who fear the Lord will hate evil.
Therefore, I hate pride and arrogance,
corruption and perverse speech.
14 Common sense and success belong to me.
Insight and strength are mine. . . .

22 “The Lord formed me from the beginning,
before he created anything else.
23 I was appointed in ages past,
at the very first, before the earth began.
24 I was born before the oceans were created,
before the springs bubbled forth their waters.
25 Before the mountains were formed,
before the hills, I was born—
26 before he had made the earth and fields
and the first handfuls of soil.
27 I was there when he established the heavens,
when he drew the horizon on the oceans.
28 I was there when he set the clouds above,
when he established springs deep in the earth.
29 I was there when he set the limits of the seas,
so they would not spread beyond their boundaries.
And when he marked off the earth’s foundations, . . .

32 “And so, my children, listen to me,
for all who follow my ways are joyful.
33 Listen to my instruction and be wise.
Don’t ignore it.
34 Joyful are those who listen to me,
watching for me daily at my gates,
waiting for me outside my home!
35 For whoever finds me finds life
and receives favor from the Lord.
36 But those who miss me injure themselves.
All who hate me love death.”

—from Proverbs 8

[Parodite]

“36 But those who miss me injure themselves.
All who hate me love death.”

—from Proverbs 8

Beautiful, thanks.

[Mr. Perfect]

Mr.P., you come as close to a real Christian as it gets.

Thank you.

It is an astute observation... "tough love". God loves all... but those led astray with their hearts closed and their eyes blinded are not meant to live. Old and new testament are filled with this warning, yet somehow people choose not to see and consider.

People are forgiven, get all the 2nd 3rd and 4rth chances to do better.... but only until judgment day. Then it is the sword or freedom. No matter the amount of sweetener and sugar coating modern day deluders like Nonc add to the story.. this outcome will not change. Kudos for keeping reality close to your chest Christ Warrior P.!

Happy to serve.

[Marcus]

It is an astute observation... "tough love". God loves all... but those led astray with their hearts closed and their eyes blinded are not meant to live. Old and new testament are filled with this warning, yet somehow people choose not to see and consider.

People are forgiven, get all the 2nd 3rd and 4rth chances to do better.... but only until judgment day. Then it is the sword or freedom. No matter the amount of sweetener and sugar coating modern day deluders like Nonc add to the story.. this outcome will not change.

18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. 26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved.

28 Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. 29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. 31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. 32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

—from Romans 8

9 Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, 10 or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. 11 Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

—from I Corinthians 6

4 For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the day of judgment. 5 And God did not spare the ancient world—except for Noah and the seven others in his family. Noah warned the world of God’s righteous judgment. So God protected Noah when he destroyed the world of ungodly people with a vast flood. 6 Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to ungodly people. 7 But God also rescued Lot out of Sodom because he was a righteous man who was sick of the shameful immorality of the wicked people around him. 8 Yes, Lot was a righteous man who was tormented in his soul by the wickedness he saw and heard day after day. 9 So you see, the Lord knows how to rescue godly people from their trials, even while keeping the wicked under punishment until the day of final judgment. 10 He is especially hard on those who follow their own twisted sexual desire, and who despise authority.

These people are proud and arrogant, daring even to scoff at supernatural beings without so much as trembling. 11 But the angels, who are far greater in power and strength, do not dare to bring from the Lord a charge of blasphemy against those supernatural beings.

12 These false teachers are like unthinking animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed. They scoff at things they do not understand, and like animals, they will be destroyed. 13 Their destruction is their reward for the harm they have done. They love to indulge in evil pleasures in broad daylight. They are a disgrace and a stain among you. They delight in deception even as they eat with you in your fellowship meals. 14 They commit adultery with their eyes, and their desire for sin is never satisfied. They lure unstable people into sin, and they are well trained in greed. They live under God’s curse. 15 They have wandered off the right road and followed the footsteps of Balaam son of Beor, who loved to earn money by doing wrong. 16 But Balaam was stopped from his mad course when his donkey rebuked him with a human voice.

17 These people are as useless as dried-up springs or as mist blown away by the wind. They are doomed to blackest darkness. 18 They brag about themselves with empty, foolish boasting. With an appeal to twisted sexual desires, they lure back into sin those who have barely escaped from a lifestyle of deception. 19 They promise freedom, but they themselves are slaves of sin and corruption. For you are a slave to whatever controls you. 20 And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. 21 It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. 22 They prove the truth of this proverb: “A dog returns to its vomit.” And another says, “A washed pig returns to the mud.”

—from II Peter

[Mr. Perfect]

Good stuff Marcus. [applause][/applause]

[Marcus]

Good stuff Marcus. [applause][/applause]

I dunno, Mr.P . . according to NT scholar, Art Berhman, these passages are very questionable . . seems that latest scholarship reveals they were added by medieval, protoreligious-right monks . . .

[Mr. Perfect]

Everyone needs a rabbit hole I guess.

[manolo]

God loves all... but those led astray with their hearts closed and their eyes blinded are not meant to live.

Parodite and folks,

"Allah akbah!!"

http://infidelsarecool.com/2006/12/over ... ence-of-i/

Alex.

[Parodite]

"Allah akbah!!"

http://infidelsarecool.com/2006/12/over ... ence-of-i/

Bible and Koran share the same Father God, it should be known and no surprise.

Back to the original text Marcus quoted:

“36 But those who miss me injure themselves.
All who hate me love death.”

—from Proverbs 8

I tried that at evening dinners, telling my wife and kids the same. That if the don't follow my instructions they will injure themselves and if they hate me they love death. Not sure what I'm doing wrong... but they just start giggling. I think it is public schools that kill all respect for authority.