On the Nature of Things | Forum

The man who destroyed America’s ego

How a rebel psychologist challenged one of the 20th century’s biggest—and most dangerous—ideas

Good article, Typhoon. Thanks for posting that.

The value of our lives depends entirely on the quality and depth of our relationships with others, not on what we happen to think or believe about ourselves. One thing the article did not address is the danger of shared identifications of esteem promoting a communal exceptionalism to any value other than those that elevate the group. If the possibility for serious critique of shared assumptions becomes impossible, human relations become vapid and meaningless, and morality becomes hollow and self-serving. Such a community is a danger to themselves and to the world.

Self-esteem and human potential movements were a natural extension of a humanism that has degenerated into a hollow materialism, a “freedom” from shared obligations both social and religious. Try as we might, we and our "autonomy" cannot be the center of the world in spite of being supported by our thin legalisms and feel good empiricisms. In my travels and work in Africa, there is admiration and concern for what we call "freedom" from the people there. We have freedoms and powers over our lives beyond what many in the world have experienced, but we lack the faith, depth, and wisdom to have any idea of what to do with them. We are like Dr. Faustus in Marlowe's play, where Faustus's pact with the devil provided him unimaginable powers, but he never understood what to do with them other than conjuring tricks for kings and noblemen and takes a strange delight in using his magic to play practical jokes on simple folks.

In spite of Baumeister’s critique, the exaltation of self-esteem remains too intoxicating in our culture and remains very much alive in while in various guises, political, religious, and social. It will only be pried apart by the pitiless crowbar of events in time. Narcissism does not die an easy death. What will happen after that is unknowable.

This self esteem stuff came from educators, not psychologists. Teachers who burnt out in the classroom and then went to grad school so they would not have to actually deal with the little monsters anymore.

Rogers work was brilliant and is still the basis of counseling seventy years later. It is a method for counseling people with problems. Maintenence and repair; not construction. Some educator got a smattering of Rogers and than went marching off in the wrong direction.

Nice read. It seems to me that all types of excessive attention and overdosed-value given to the individual tend to limit or create problems that would otherwise be mild or non-existent.

The continuous "I am wonderful and very important even without an effort" feeds hollow narcissism, but so does the "I am a selfish sinner, always falling short, in deficit in the face of the perfect divine." Two sides of the same pancake.

As certain feminists have rather perceptively pointed out; sometime in the 19th century, there was a definitive, revolutionary shift in conceptualizing an individual's virtue as conterminous with self-esteem. They attribute this to the period of revolutions which delineated the republican man as one whose very nature manifested virtue only in the most public actions and forums. The attitude was that a man could express courage, constancy et al. when the nation needed saving; but one couldn't or shouldn't expect such accounts in their private lives; even if displayed, nothing could be conceptualized or explicated from these instances.

Of course, virtues in private lives (as imagined) were ones more concerned with domesticity and "women's work" and should be no concern of men as men. To paraphrase, "Through the Reading Glass: Women, Books, and Sex Through the French Revolution" by Suellen Diaconoff, the general impression of women about the Revolution was negative. Whereas the old regime merely lowered them in the hierarchy, the new regime all but shut them out of any actual participation or role in society. Diaconoff suggests that a majority of these women, marginalized, clung to the more reactionary parties and institutions as a result- especially the religious institutions, which were buttressed by those who felt disenfranchised by the new order. It was this alliance, according to her, that revolutionized how we think of virtue and self-esteem.

The 20th century, in those disciplines even loosely concerned with concepts like virtue and esteem, is merely commentary, cogitation, implication and explication of an event that happened the previous century.

Which is why, it should be no surprise that as women have integrated more and more in previously "off-limit" areas of social life; we see the "self-esteem movement" dissipating.

their appears to be a small disconnect in reality between feeling confident in oneself versus expecting everyone else to treat you like a god.

the fundie self esteemers seem to really struggle with that particular aspect of things.

noddy wrote:their appears to be a small disconnect in reality between feeling confident in oneself versus expecting everyone else to treat you like a god.

Now that you mention it, I have been meaning to talk to everyone on the planet about the lack of respect and admiration they often fail to bestow upon me......

noddy wrote: the fundie self esteemers seem to really struggle with that particular aspect of things.

I can only conclude that everyone on Earth is RACIST!

Or maybe worse: SELFISH!

The science is settled!

Abandon your sense of self and worship me as the central point of your existence! Please! Please! Please!

its an ongoing problem, women especially dont treat me like the king god i am, its all blah blah reciprocation blah.

noddy wrote:its an ongoing problem, women especially dont treat me like the king god i am, its all blah blah reciprocation blah.

I feel your pain Bro. That really sucks! Those selfish bitches!

But hey, enough about you..... let's talk about me!

“Self-esteem is the likeliest candidate for a social vaccine, something that empowers us to live responsibly and that inoculates us against the lures of crime, violence, substance abuse, teen pregnancy, child abuse, chronic welfare dependency and educational failure. The lack of self-esteem is central to most personal and social ills plaguing our state and nation as we approach the end of the 20th century.”

IF you want to see proof of the *belief* of that just go to a little league baseball game and watch the parents.

We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.

Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.

That sounds about right.

Doc wrote:

“Self-esteem is the likeliest candidate for a social vaccine, something that empowers us to live responsibly and that inoculates us against the lures of crime, violence, substance abuse, teen pregnancy, child abuse, chronic welfare dependency and educational failure. The lack of self-esteem is central to most personal and social ills plaguing our state and nation as we approach the end of the 20th century.”

IF you want to see proof of the *belief* of that just go to a little league baseball game and watch the parents.

Bingo! Now we are making some progress! The root cause of all self-esteem issues (high, low, inflated, unrealistic, etc.) is parents.

Their kids are so "special," "cute," "smart," "talented," etc. Spending more money on their own kids than they do on other people's kids. Trying to give their own kids advantages over other kids.

Some sort of pre-natal education or indoctrination camps for expecting parents would be useful to create universal, acceptable standards of parenting in regards to developing the child's sense of self.

It could be marketed under the banner of "Let's do it for the common good!" or "Let's do it for the children!"

Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.

I would re-phrase your second sentence to read: "Realistic self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept." I've met a more than a few who are totally incompetent and devoid of knowledge, yet very confident.

The third sentence is an excellent summation of the problem!

Simple Minded wrote:

Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.

I would re-phrase your second sentence to read: "Realistic self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept." I've met a more than a few who are totally incompetent and devoid of knowledge, yet very confident.

The third sentence is an excellent summation of the problem!

Your rephrasing is a tautology. Self esteem comes from a congruence of self-perception and the idealized self. It is a function of how well one feels they have lived up to the values and mores of the people who they self-elected as role models.

A confident person who is incompetent and ignorant usually has accompanying anxiety, and has developed various coping mechanisms: denial, projection, reaction formation, etc. One can appear to be confident but still feel inadequate, and this is very common. Especially with politicians and used car salesmen.

Nonc Hilaire wrote:

Simple Minded wrote:

Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.

I would re-phrase your second sentence to read: "Realistic self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept." I've met a more than a few who are totally incompetent and devoid of knowledge, yet very confident.

The third sentence is an excellent summation of the problem!

Your rephrasing is a tautology. Self esteem comes from a congruence of self-perception and the idealized self. It is a function of how well one feels they have lived up to the values and mores of the people who they self-elected as role models.

A confident person who is incompetent and ignorant usually has accompanying anxiety, and has developed various coping mechanisms: denial, projection, reaction formation, etc. One can appear to be confident but still feel inadequate, and this is very common. Especially with politicians and used car salesmen.

One could also down a jar of pills to make those anxious feelings meaningless.

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:

Nonc Hilaire wrote:

Simple Minded wrote:

Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.

I would re-phrase your second sentence to read: "Realistic self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept." I've met a more than a few who are totally incompetent and devoid of knowledge, yet very confident.

The third sentence is an excellent summation of the problem!

Your rephrasing is a tautology. Self esteem comes from a congruence of self-perception and the idealized self. It is a function of how well one feels they have lived up to the values and mores of the people who they self-elected as role models.

A confident person who is incompetent and ignorant usually has accompanying anxiety, and has developed various coping mechanisms: denial, projection, reaction formation, etc. One can appear to be confident but still feel inadequate, and this is very common. Especially with politicians and used car salesmen.

One could also down a jar of pills to make those anxious feelings meaningless.

If ya can't make denial, ignorance, or faith in God or Karma work for ya, I really don't think those pills will help.

Personally, I recommend bottles of Dr. Feelgood. This week only, regular OTNOT posters, qualify for the special reduced rate.

Our motto is "Life is better when you feel good."

Nonc Hilaire wrote:

Simple Minded wrote:

Nonc Hilaire wrote:We need to differentiate self-esteem from self-concept. High self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept. What this so-called self-esteem movement was actually an artificially high self-conception.

I would re-phrase your second sentence to read: "Realistic self-esteem comes from an accurate self concept." I've met a more than a few who are totally incompetent and devoid of knowledge, yet very confident.

The third sentence is an excellent summation of the problem!

Your rephrasing is a tautology. Self esteem comes from a congruence of self-perception and the idealized self. It is a function of how well one feels they have lived up to the values and mores of the people who they self-elected as role models.

A confident person who is incompetent and ignorant usually has accompanying anxiety, and has developed various coping mechanisms: denial, projection, reaction formation, etc. One can appear to be confident but still feel inadequate, and this is very common. Especially with politicians and used car salesmen.

wow! It also appears self-esteem is affected by what other people post on the internet.

Who knew?

Some days the self-esteem movement rises, some days it falls.

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
One could also down a jar of pills to make those anxious feelings meaningless.

are you implying that Big Pharma is behind the death of the self-esteem movement?

makes sense.

lower self-esteem could also be a result of AGW!

I was waiting for my PornHub Video to Buffer and i noticed an Advert:

"Desperate Girls Willing To F-ck Anyone, Even You!"

Hey, that sh!t is not good for my Low Self Esteem, people. Have a little sensitivity, will ya?.

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/special-snowflake

Simple Minded wrote:

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:
One could also down a jar of pills to make those anxious feelings meaningless.

are you implying that Big Pharma is behind the death of the self-esteem movement?

makes sense.

lower self-esteem could also be a result of AGW!

You're gonna get all uppity now? We better get you some pills.

its that darned frontal lobe giving him the issues, a small incision with a drill by a trained professional should relieve the worst of it.

the sideeffect of a small amount of drooling is a small price to pay.

kmich wrote:I was waiting for my PornHub Video to Buffer and i noticed an Advert:

"Desperate Girls Willing To F-ck Anyone, Even You!"

Hey, that sh!t is not good for my Low Self Esteem, people. Have a little sensitivity, will ya?.

Kmitch,

My prescription is "Physician, heal thyself!"

Don't play coy... Yeah, you know what I mean.

Few, if any, are interested in the rise and fall of your self-esteem!