Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

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Doc
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Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

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"Why not catch the six fish and move them to where they need to go?"

http://www.wired.com/2015/04/california ... ater-fish/
Nick Stockton Science

04.10.15
9:55 pm


Should California Spend 4 Billion Gallons (of water)to Save a Six Fish?


In the the heart of California’s drought-parched Central Valley, fruit and vegetable supplier to the nation, a water district is defying a federal order to give some endangered trout a 3.9 billion gallon water ride out to sea. And it could be the first skirmish in a much wider conflict.

The Endangered Species Act protects steelhead trout, a small population of which are attempting a recovery in the Stanislaus River, which flows out of the Sierra Nevada Mountains into Modesto, in the San Joaquin Valley. So earlier this week a federal fisheries agency—it’s unclear which one, and there are several—told the California branch of the Bureau of Reclamation (another water agency) that the fish needed more water to get out to the Pacific. The bureau in turn passed the order to the South San Joaquin Irrigation District, telling them to let a pulse of water through the dam on the Stanislaus.

But upon receipt, Jeff Shields, the manager of SSJID went rogue: “Whose water will be released down the Stanislaus River to satisfy the second pulse flow?” Not his, in other words.

It was the second such order in the past three weeks. The SSJID complied with the first. According to the Manteca Bulletin, a local paper that has been covering the standoff, this flushed out 15,000 acre feet of water and 23 steelhead trout. But this latest order, which would reportedly use another 12,000 acre feet to save only six fish, was too much for Shields. (Fisheries agencies haven’t yet confirmed that count.)

So Lewis said no to the Bureau, and then secured legal counsel. “We tried to work with the Bureau for the last several years. We’ve sent dozens of letters and ideas about how to manage the river more prudently and other issues that we felt needed to be addressed because they were affecting our water,” Shields told the Manteca Bulletin. “I understand that they’re busy and they have a river that they have to manage and water that they have to take care of, but we’re busy as well—we have water that we have to manage and people that we have to look out for as well.” According to Shields, this water is better used on human interests, like agriculture and homes.

As of Friday evening, the SSJID and the Bureau of Reclamation—along with several other agencies, including the National Marine Fisheries Service, which estimates how many fish are expected to swim to sea each year—were still on the phone, trying to figure out what happens next. This is likely to open the proverbial flood gates (ahem) in a long-simmering debate over whether fish are an interest group worthy of California’s precious water allocations.

The environmental argument is that steelhead trout are important to mountain ecosystems, which have downstream benefits. And the flows themselves keep the briny water from the San Francisco Bay from creeping into the Sacramento Delta. But of course California is facing a record-breaking drought, and the crops that feed the country need fresh water, too. According to Lewis Moore, a spokesperson for the Bureau of Reclamation, if the various interest groups don’t resolve the issue tonight, the negotiations will continue into next week. “We are hopeful there will be a favorable response, and then everything will go back to the way it was,” Moore says.

Regardless, it looks like the SSJID is geared up for a fight. In the past, courts have sided with local water districts. But for someone inclined toward apocalyptic cli-fi, this kind of standoff isn’t good news.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Nonc Hilaire
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Protect the fish. When the canary in the coal mine stops singing, you don't move the canary to a better location so the miners can keep working.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

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Nonc Hilaire wrote:Protect the fish. When the canary in the coal mine stops singing, you don't move the canary to a better location so the miners can keep working.
So if push comes to shove the people rather than fish should be moved out?
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Simple Minded

Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Simple Minded »

I think the CA legislature should legally declare that they are not fish, but human fetuses and abort all of them.

Convenience should always be a high priority in the management of human affairs.

IMSMO, as both a fourth or fifth generation CA farmer, and a professor at an elitist CA university, Victor Davis Hanson's has some very interesting perspectives on CA water management. He has been writing about the upcoming problems (now current) for years. http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=8327

Many of his articles from the last few years, describing current events in CA read like a newspaper written in the final days of the Roman empire.

These problems were not unforeseen in the past, just not a priority. Damn those horizons for not staying where they were! :evil:

As water becomes more scarce, and the cost skyrockets, the overpopulation problem of both fish and humans in CA should solve itself.
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Typhoon »

How did it become a binary situation?

My guess is that therein lies the stupidity.
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by YMix »

Doc wrote:So if push comes to shove the people rather than fish should be moved out?
Simple Minded wrote:As water becomes more scarce, and the cost skyrockets, the overpopulation problem of both fish and humans in CA should solve itself.
As far as I can tell, the fish will die and the people will move out. Equal opportunity disappointment.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

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Simple Minded wrote:IMSMO, as both a fourth or fifth generation CA farmer, and a professor at an elitist CA university, Victor Davis Hanson's has some very interesting perspectives on CA water management. He has been writing about the upcoming problems (now current) for years. http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=8327

Many of his articles from the last few years, describing current events in CA read like a newspaper written in the final days of the Roman empire.
Let's see...
Hanson wrote:Does anyone realize that the entire California experiment — having 75% of the people live in a Mediterranean climate where 25% of the state’s rain and snow fall — is unnatural and depends on each generation’s ingenuity and industriousness to ensure water, an educated populace, safe freeways, and basic safety and security for the citizenry?
The market will provide a solution.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
Simple Minded

Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Simple Minded »

YMix wrote:
Doc wrote:So if push comes to shove the people rather than fish should be moved out?
Simple Minded wrote:As water becomes more scarce, and the cost skyrockets, the overpopulation problem of both fish and humans in CA should solve itself.
As far as I can tell, the fish will die and the people will move out. Equal opportunity disappointment.
You are wise beyond your years Grasshopper!
Simple Minded

Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Simple Minded »

YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:IMSMO, as both a fourth or fifth generation CA farmer, and a professor at an elitist CA university, Victor Davis Hanson's has some very interesting perspectives on CA water management. He has been writing about the upcoming problems (now current) for years. http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=8327

Many of his articles from the last few years, describing current events in CA read like a newspaper written in the final days of the Roman empire.
Let's see...
Hanson wrote:Does anyone realize that the entire California experiment — having 75% of the people live in a Mediterranean climate where 25% of the state’s rain and snow fall — is unnatural and depends on each generation’s ingenuity and industriousness to ensure water, an educated populace, safe freeways, and basic safety and security for the citizenry?
The market will provide a solution.
absolutely, if not, we can fall back on Mother Nature and Darwin.... ;)
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Doc »

YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:IMSMO, as both a fourth or fifth generation CA farmer, and a professor at an elitist CA university, Victor Davis Hanson's has some very interesting perspectives on CA water management. He has been writing about the upcoming problems (now current) for years. http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=8327

Many of his articles from the last few years, describing current events in CA read like a newspaper written in the final days of the Roman empire.
Let's see...
Hanson wrote:Does anyone realize that the entire California experiment — having 75% of the people live in a Mediterranean climate where 25% of the state’s rain and snow fall — is unnatural and depends on each generation’s ingenuity and industriousness to ensure water, an educated populace, safe freeways, and basic safety and security for the citizenry?
The market will provide a solution.

How do you have unnatural rain and snowfall?
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Simple Minded

Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Simple Minded »

Doc wrote:
YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:IMSMO, as both a fourth or fifth generation CA farmer, and a professor at an elitist CA university, Victor Davis Hanson's has some very interesting perspectives on CA water management. He has been writing about the upcoming problems (now current) for years. http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=8327

Many of his articles from the last few years, describing current events in CA read like a newspaper written in the final days of the Roman empire.
Let's see...
Hanson wrote:Does anyone realize that the entire California experiment — having 75% of the people live in a Mediterranean climate where 25% of the state’s rain and snow fall — is unnatural and depends on each generation’s ingenuity and industriousness to ensure water, an educated populace, safe freeways, and basic safety and security for the citizenry?
The market will provide a solution.
How do you have unnatural rain and snowfall?
I think the point he was trying to make is that 75% of the people in CA live in an area with almost no rainfall or snowfall. Therefore, if they hope aspire to becoming anything other than Mother Nature's homemade jerky, they better be smart enough to plan ahead.
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Doc »

Simple Minded wrote:
Doc wrote:
YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:IMSMO, as both a fourth or fifth generation CA farmer, and a professor at an elitist CA university, Victor Davis Hanson's has some very interesting perspectives on CA water management. He has been writing about the upcoming problems (now current) for years. http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=8327

Many of his articles from the last few years, describing current events in CA read like a newspaper written in the final days of the Roman empire.
Let's see...
Hanson wrote:Does anyone realize that the entire California experiment — having 75% of the people live in a Mediterranean climate where 25% of the state’s rain and snow fall — is unnatural and depends on each generation’s ingenuity and industriousness to ensure water, an educated populace, safe freeways, and basic safety and security for the citizenry?
The market will provide a solution.
How do you have unnatural rain and snowfall?
I think the point he was trying to make is that 75% of the people in CA live in an area with almost no rainfall or snowfall. Therefore, if they hope aspire to becoming anything other than Mother Nature's homemade jerky, they better be smart enough to plan ahead.
There is enough water in California to support more people by about half. The half being what has been diverted for ecological reasons. Californians have consistently exhibited delusional thinking when it comes to water and energy. IE The NIMBY is strong in them.

My guess is that they will never figure it out until they are doing a reverse grapes of wraith kind of thing.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by YMix »

Doc wrote:My guess is that they will never figure it out until they are doing a reverse grapes of wraith kind of thing.
From Okies to... Callies?
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
Simple Minded

Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Simple Minded »

Doc wrote:
There is enough water in California to support more people by about half. The half being what has been diverted for ecological reasons. Californians have consistently exhibited delusional thinking when it comes to water and energy. IE The NIMBY is strong in them.

My guess is that they will never figure it out until they are doing a reverse grapes of wraith kind of thing.
Ahhhh.... the NIMBY. Yes, of course. Dams, reservoirs, power plants are so ugly. If only politicians were as skilled as Walt Disney.

You have to give the collective some credit for philosophical consistency.

When they take themselves out of the gene pool..... voluntarily, at the minimum, they should get a Darwin award.
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Doc »

YMix wrote:
Doc wrote:My guess is that they will never figure it out until they are doing a reverse grapes of wraith kind of thing.
From Okies to... Callies?
Maybe if Jeb Bush gets elected from CA to CA Nada :D
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Azrael »

Doc wrote:
YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:IMSMO, as both a fourth or fifth generation CA farmer, and a professor at an elitist CA university, Victor Davis Hanson's has some very interesting perspectives on CA water management. He has been writing about the upcoming problems (now current) for years. http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=8327

Many of his articles from the last few years, describing current events in CA read like a newspaper written in the final days of the Roman empire.
Let's see...
Hanson wrote:Does anyone realize that the entire California experiment — having 75% of the people live in a Mediterranean climate where 25% of the state’s rain and snow fall — is unnatural and depends on each generation’s ingenuity and industriousness to ensure water, an educated populace, safe freeways, and basic safety and security for the citizenry?
The market will provide a solution.

How do you have unnatural rain and snowfall?
More than 80% of water is used by agriculture, much of it by monsoon crops that don't belong in a Mediterranean climate.
cultivate a white rose
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Doc »

Azrael wrote:
Doc wrote:
YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:IMSMO, as both a fourth or fifth generation CA farmer, and a professor at an elitist CA university, Victor Davis Hanson's has some very interesting perspectives on CA water management. He has been writing about the upcoming problems (now current) for years. http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=8327

Many of his articles from the last few years, describing current events in CA read like a newspaper written in the final days of the Roman empire.
Let's see...
Hanson wrote:Does anyone realize that the entire California experiment — having 75% of the people live in a Mediterranean climate where 25% of the state’s rain and snow fall — is unnatural and depends on each generation’s ingenuity and industriousness to ensure water, an educated populace, safe freeways, and basic safety and security for the citizenry?
The market will provide a solution.

How do you have unnatural rain and snowfall?
More than 80% of water is used by agriculture, much of it by monsoon crops that don't belong in a Mediterranean climate.
Most people seem to have green yards Also not belonging in a Mediterranean climate.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Azrael »

Doc wrote:
Azrael wrote:
Doc wrote:
YMix wrote:
Simple Minded wrote:IMSMO, as both a fourth or fifth generation CA farmer, and a professor at an elitist CA university, Victor Davis Hanson's has some very interesting perspectives on CA water management. He has been writing about the upcoming problems (now current) for years. http://victorhanson.com/wordpress/?p=8327

Many of his articles from the last few years, describing current events in CA read like a newspaper written in the final days of the Roman empire.
Let's see...
Hanson wrote:Does anyone realize that the entire California experiment — having 75% of the people live in a Mediterranean climate where 25% of the state’s rain and snow fall — is unnatural and depends on each generation’s ingenuity and industriousness to ensure water, an educated populace, safe freeways, and basic safety and security for the citizenry?
The market will provide a solution.

How do you have unnatural rain and snowfall?
More than 80% of water is used by agriculture, much of it by monsoon crops that don't belong in a Mediterranean climate.
Most people seem to have green yards Also not belonging in a Mediterranean climate.
True. With water restrictions, some people may be forced to use less thirsty ground-cover.
cultivate a white rose
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Nonc Hilaire
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Natural Cal. flora talks to the lawn

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Image
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

Teresa of Ávila
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Re: Natural Cal. flora talks to the lawn

Post by Azrael »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Image
That's what I was thinking. I have relatives in Arizona, so I'm used to seeing cacti.
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Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Zack Morris »

You know, I've never met a fish I didn't like. Can't say the same for people.
Simple Minded

Re: Are the livelihoods of millions worth the lives 6 fish?

Post by Simple Minded »

Zack Morris wrote:You know, I've never met a fish I didn't like. Can't say the same for people.
:lol:

every once in a while Zack, I even like you for a short period of time. ;)

I value your consistent humanity and obnoxiousness!

As the comedian said "I rely on my personality as my primary means of birth control!" :)
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