On the Nature of Things | Forum

Folks,

This came up elsewhere and might be worth a discussion. The question is about freedom and human attitudes to animals kept as housepets, and whether a person could be said to 'love' a creature which is kept in a state of capture in a domestic situation.

First off, there is a lot of them. People keep dogs, cats, budgies, reptiles, monkeys, tortoises: all kinds of creatures in their homes. People do become fond of the creatures and might even say that they 'love' their pets. I am inclined to agree with someone who has argued that we are never really 'loving' a creature that we keep in a state of imprisonment, denying its true nature. Is this true?

Alex.

Alex,

I hope you are not referencing me in the above post, if so you are misreading me.

If I understand you correctly, then I do not know of even one parent who loves their child(ren). All the parents I know impose their values and rules of acceptable (civilized?) behavior upon their children, including language.

What would humanity look like after two generations of allowing children to reach their natural potential?

In Appalachia, we really love farm animals. really!

manolo wrote:I am inclined to agree with someone who has argued that we are never really 'loving' a creature that we keep in a state of imprisonment, denying its true nature. Is this true?

My cat is sleeping in the yard as we speak. She's free to jump the fence any time she wants, but she never even tries. I had a bunch of tomcats at one point. Some roamed the area around the house but came back to base every couple of hours, while others preferred a bed & breakfast relationship. Does this mean I love my cat(s)?

YMix,

we do the same with our cats. some choose to spend 90+% of their time outside, others choose to spend 50+% of their time inside. we have lots of outdoor shelters. they are freerange cats, and often patrol/hunt the woods behind the house. they even stalk deer, but have yet to team up and bring one down.

in the olden days, parents did the same with their kids. kids were informed that the door swung both ways, and if they did not like the rules, they were free to leave anytime they wanted.

we all ran away from home, at least once or twice, for a few hours, or a day or two.

even though we were "oppressed & unloved," most of us chose to stay.

Yes, we can really love housepets.

Defining love is impossible, but if we grieve the death of a pet that validates the fact that we loved it.

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Yes, we can really love housepets.

Defining love is impossible, but if we grieve the death of a pet that validates the fact that we loved it.

Nonc,

We always have 'rescued' hamsters. These are ones that have been unwanted or even mistreated and returned to the shop. The shop keeps them in a little glass case until someone takes them for free, and this can be a matter of months.

After this tiny space in the shop, we have a huge 'cage' with lots of levels and tubes leading out to other smaller compartments. Interestingly, the last four hamsters have all chosen the same place to make a nest, which is at the highest point of the network of tubes. All of the hamsters have been wary about coming out of a tube into the large space of the cage, until they get to know us. Their personalities are quite different otherwise.

As mentioned previously, there was one hamster (Alan) who chewed at the cage, so I let him go. He lived under the floor for a while and then came back. I have ambivalent feelings about having a creature in a 'prison' but I do know that hamsters are solitary animals and they have a lot to do, with the making nests and varied nuts and stuff, and activity things here and there. With one (Bruin) I even offered some gymnastic climbing challenges and she did amazingly.

They don't live very long, as each one comes to us as an adult. Of course there is top quality healthcare for them, but the death of any hamster is a big deal. We have had four previous to our present chap (Felix) and I miss every one of them. Felix is nearly two years old now. He comes out whenever he hears my voice, likes to be tickled and stroked and has been relaxing and pleasant company.

Alex.

PS - But caged animals are a problem, can't deny it. I have rescued three wild birds over the last five years and the best moment of all - is to see them fly away.

I have no idea why, but I just had a vision of four hamsters in WW1 leather flying helmets, scarves and goggles duct taped to the blades of a ceiling fan.

Simple Minded wrote: we all ran away from home, at least once or twice, for a few hours, or a day or two.

even though we were "oppressed & unloved," most of us chose to stay.

SM,

My Dad was 'old school' patriarch, but he left me with one great gift. I understood how to learn from my daughter, by putting myself to one side and letting her blossom in her own way.

I am dearly loved, and there has now been an added blessing. We have a granddaughter and I see my daughter being a parent in the gentle way she learned from me and her Mum. After all these years I can see how much my father lost by 'always being right'. It must have been a hard road for him.

Alex.

manolo wrote:

Simple Minded wrote: we all ran away from home, at least once or twice, for a few hours, or a day or two.

even though we were "oppressed & unloved," most of us chose to stay.

SM,

My Dad was 'old school' patriarch, but he left me with one great gift. I understood how to learn from my daughter, by putting myself to one side and letting her blossom in her own way.

I am dearly loved, and there has now been an added blessing. We have a granddaughter and I see my daughter being a parent in the gentle way she learned from me and her Mum. After all these years I can see how much my father lost by 'always being right'. It must have been a hard road for him.

Alex.

Congrats on the granddaughter.

At least in our first world luxury, each successive generation has almost no experience of the hardship faced by the previous generation. Imagine having children and knowing that only 70% of them, at best, would reach adulthood. Changes in generational norms far outstrips left/right, rich/poor, white/black, etc. differences. Even today's "poor" enjoy a life kings and queens could not imagine only a couple hundred years ago, or many wealthy people could not imagine two generations ago. You would probably enjoy Strauss & Howe's research.

Discussing our parent's generation with a lifelong friend about 20 years ago, I coined the phrase "the John Wayne Generation" to describe them. She would brag that she never spanks her children. I told her that is true, but don't be disappointed if your children an/or grandchildren spank the hell out of their kids. Dr. Spock has limited shelf life.

Imagine how insignificant a mirco-aggression, or an internet slight would seem.... if your childhood responsibilities involved keeping a clear path thru the snow to the outhouse 24/7, or getting up at 4 am to work for 2 hours before breakfast. Imagine how little you would fear police or "societal oppression" if you knew every adult within a mile was keeping an eye on you, and would not hesitate to "tan your hide," or worse, tell your parents about your misdeeds.... and your parents always sided with the adult.

Every generation has losses and gains. We were spanked, and presented the opportunity to work if we wanted more, starting at age 8 or so. We had choices, as Gramma loved to say, "Well then, if you don't want to work for it, you better learn to do without." End of discussion. No lecture required. Nobody needed to locked their doors, grudges on the playground with fists or insults, not knives or guns.

Back to your earlier post. Nonc nailed it. You know you love and enjoy your animals. You provide for their needs. Kudos to you. Any opinions of observers are irrelevant. Enjoy those swarthy varmits.

SM,

One thought. Yes, there are societal patterns and influences over time, but there are also individual personalities.

Interestingly, there are also individual personalities in hamsters. We have had three gentle natures and one bruiser. We liked them all, but kept our fingers away from Bruin's mouth. Our current hamster, Felix, is very relaxed.

I have enjoyed feeding some squirrels in our local woodlands. After a while they would run to me when I turned up with a few peanuts in shells. When offering a nut, I tried a small experiment. I would hold on to my end of the nut firmly to see how strong and/or pushy they were. The squirrels were all different. The more nervous ones tended to pull hard and then run quickly. More confident squirrel's would be gentler and I remember one squirrel that sat on my legs and put a paw (paw?) onto my hand while taking the nut. Remember, these were wild woodland creatures, not domesticated. I won't forget that 'brief encounter' with the paw, so natural and I would use the word 'intimate'.

Alex.

manolo wrote:SM,

One thought. Yes, there are societal patterns and influences over time, but there are also individual personalities.

Interestingly, there are also individual personalities in hamsters. We have had three gentle natures and one bruiser. We liked them all, but kept our fingers away from Bruin's mouth. Our current hamster, Felix, is very relaxed.

I have enjoyed feeding some squirrels in our local woodlands. After a while they would run to me when I turned up with a few peanuts in shells. When offering a nut, I tried a small experiment. I would hold on to my end of the nut firmly to see how strong and/or pushy they were. The squirrels were all different. The more nervous ones tended to pull hard and then run quickly. More confident squirrel's would be gentler and I remember one squirrel that sat on my legs and put a paw (paw?) onto my hand while taking the nut. Remember, these were wild woodland creatures, not domesticated. I won't forget that 'brief encounter' with the paw, so natural and I would use the word 'intimate'.

Alex.

Alex,

Could you ID the Tory squirrels? Perhaps the different squirrels viewed you as a different mountain.

This parallels my experiences with people. Both animals & humans seem to be individuals. Other than humans being predictable as acting like humans, that is.

Except, of course, the right wingers, left wingers, Americans, Europeans, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Blue staters, Red staters, whites, blacks, cinnamons, Asians, etc. Each person in those groups all think alike....

Those experiences lead me to think there are old souls and young souls out there, in both human and animal form. Anthropomorphism, it's not just for people....

seeing as SM and Nonc have said all the sensible stuff, do i get to make a furry joke now ?

noddy wrote:seeing as SM and Nonc have said all the sensible stuff, do i get to make a furry joke now ?

My task on Earth is to promote creative discussion, wit, and occasionally intelligence. Furry joke away!

something about pets, petting, and beavers or pussys or one-eyed snakes maybe?

A one-eyed snake in the hand is worth two, three, or more beavers in the bush?

I assume loving animals excludes bestiality?

Parodite wrote:I assume loving animals excludes bestiality?

I certainly hope not!

That would be racist!

Simple Minded wrote:
Could you ID the Tory squirrels?

Alex.

Simple Minded wrote:

noddy wrote:seeing as SM and Nonc have said all the sensible stuff, do i get to make a furry joke now ?

My task on Earth is to promote creative discussion, wit, and occasionally intelligence. Furry joke away!

something about pets, petting, and beavers or pussys or one-eyed snakes maybe?

A one-eyed snake in the hand is worth two, three, or more beavers in the bush?