Immigration debate in the USA

[Typhoon]

Actually, no. The US so-called progressive media is obsessed with the classifying people according to race (and gender and sexual orientation and . . . ) as much, if not more so, than US social conservatives. Their online media are full of it every day. These so-called progressives big mistake is a familiar historic one, assuming that individuals and society are a tabula rasa - blank slate - on whom new social norms can easily be imposed, er, legislated, er, written. Push back is the natural to-be-expected reaction. Doc alluded to this in another thread when he wrote about "cultural imperialism". If he is correct, and it is not just "the economy, stupid", then the US Senate is going to have a Republican majority for a while yet.

Sounds like you suffer from the same massive blind spot that Doc and most of the US right wing do.

Which would be remarkable considering I'm not American, not right wing, and have healthy retina.

The "so-called" "progressive" media (Slate? Salon? The Nation?) do indeed perform a lot of hand-wringing about race issues. Apparently, this is a shiny distraction that blinds you from the fact that the right wing acts to impose or defend racial disparities. "So-called progressive" local politicians haven't been comparing blacks to monkeys (including the former President and his wife). Nor is it they who constantly work to disenfranchise minority voters (US courts have repeatedly had to get involved in race-based gerrymandering cases). It's not the lefty media who refuse to have a conversation about police discrimination and whine about how "there was no racism before Obama". It's not the progressive media using hostile, inflammatory rhetoric that makes minorities feel unsafe.

And what inflammatory rhetoric is the WSJ using?

Why don't you ask minorities here about why they feel unsafe or have them describe incidents that have made them fear for their safety? Then, ask conservatives the same question. You're very likely to hear personal stories from one group and wild conspiracy theories and conjecture about what "liberals" allegedly want to do, as imagined by right wing talk radio.

I lived in the US for ~ 7 years. The conservative Midwest of suburban Chicagoland.
Back in the days when the homicide was the highest ever, including the 1920's and today.
The few negative incidents that I did experience all involved minorities. Go figure.

Unfortunately for you, I do know a lot of Americans, some are conservative, some are liberal.
Almost all are unimpressed by current histrionics, be it from the left or the right.
Although few with liberal views did have a bit of a meltdown after this past POTUS election

However, rather than personal stories and anecdotes,I prefer US CDC statistics.
The sad reality is that the leading cause of death in the US of young black men, 15 to 34, is other young black men.
For hispanic men in the same age range, homicide by other hispanic men is the second leading cause of death.

It's not the media that's the problem here. That's a lazy cop-out. The media obsesses about all kinds of things. But America's nasty atavistic racism goes back very, very far.

I am familiar with US history.
As for today, both the right and the media, especially in this new era of clickbait, blows incidents completely out of all proportion while real issues such as those that I noted above are studiously ignored.

[Zack Morris]

You think your conservative Chicagoland friends or folks in Iowa are actually worried about black-on-black crime?
Black-on-black crime is the consequence of more than a century of economic discrimination, ghettoization, redlining, and voter disenfranchisement. The top fear conservatives in the burbs have is poor black people moving nearby. Plummeting crime rates haven't stopped the wacko righties from screaming for more law enforcement and racial profiling. Hell, that was one of the pillars of the Trump candidacy, inexplicably.

[noddy]

i dont believe in much but i do believe white people are not better than any other people.

so i mostly expect average merkin joe to carry on like average han joe.

this leaves me somewhat dubious as to the amount of change that can be inflicted on a population before it pops, racism will be only one of many irrational vectors - chinese joe pops against japanese.

indonesian and malaysian joe pops all the time against chinese entrepeneurs, melanesian joe pops all the time at chinese and polynesian migrants.

i could go on.

the problems of black america and the legacy of slavery is something that most countries dont have, so who's to know what the right answer to that is except time and a willingness to stop looking backwards from all sides.

[Mr. Perfect]

You think your conservative Chicagoland friends or folks in Iowa are actually worried about black-on-black crime?

About as much as you.

Black-on-black crime is the consequence of more than a century of economic discrimination, ghettoization, redlining, and voter disenfranchisement.

Really. How so. Why didn't you do anything about that when obama was president

The top fear conservatives in the burbs have is poor black people moving nearby.

Smells like projection. Either way, citation needed.

Plummeting crime rates haven't stopped the wacko righties from screaming for more law enforcement and racial profiling. Hell, that was one of the pillars of the Trump candidacy, inexplicably.

Cant wait for the citations.

[Typhoon]

You think your conservative Chicagoland friends or folks in Iowa are actually worried about black-on-black crime?

I don't recall saying that I have friends in Iowa.
As for the ones in Chicagoland, yes, they are. No one likes have high crime zones in their city.

Black-on-black crime is the consequence of more than a century of economic discrimination, ghettoization, redlining, and voter disenfranchisement.

I don't think so. The Civil Rights Act was necessary, however, the Great Society program destroyed black families and a once thriving
self-reliant community creating a cycle of dependency.
Fortunately for minorities such as Chinese, Japanese, and others there was no such program.

The top fear conservatives in the burbs have is poor black people moving nearby.

Who would want people with a history of propensity for crime and violence in their neighbourhood?

http://heyjackass.com/

Middle and upper class blacks don't want them either.

f3PJF0YE-x4

Plummeting crime rates haven't stopped the wacko righties from screaming for more law enforcement and racial profiling. Hell, that was one of the pillars of the Trump candidacy, inexplicably.

Looking forward to the references.

[Simple Minded]

f3PJF0YE-x4

Looking forward to the references.

This is exactly what I meant in the other thread when I said hipsters have destroyed the definitions of black and white in America. To me, Chris Rock is black, and sounds as normal as the black and white people I have known all my life. To Zack, Chris Rock is obviously white.

White people with microphones..... run!

[Simple Minded]

"You do realize that you are describing yourself to me, right?"

False equivalence. My point stands. The issue at heart here is proportionality. Conservative America is fearful of and demands greater concessions from a segment of the population it hardly interacts with. The issues that most irritate conservative America are those in which it has the least stake. That's an essential difference. Conservative America frequently demands that the rights of others be sacrificed for their own pride. Take for instance the travel ban. It is very unpopular in areas that are most likely to be targeted by terrorists. Likewise with most social issues. Irrational opposition to gay marriage is strongest among troglodytes in places like Utah, which, much like Ahmedinajad's Iran, hardly even have gay people! People hundreds of miles from the nearest major city are suddenly having panic attacks over crime in three Chicago neighborhoods and demanding Federal intervention headed by a documented racist.

I know it's boring out there and you want to feel like you have a stake in our society but, please, stop watching our TV (you apparently lack the context to process it properly) and mind your own business. More than enough problems of your own to fix.

Like i said Zack, cosmic justice is sweet. Stop being a slave to your concept of group identity, and start looking at people as individuals, and evaluate them by their behavior rather than by skin color or zip code and you will be a lot happier.

In the meantime, how about a selfie with all the illegal immigrants, or poor black people that live in your house, and that you provide with means of support?

Dude, that 3X-20X mean American income can do a lot of good if you just hand it over to the needy! How much does a 3 star sushi meal cost? How many big Macs could it buy?

You crack me up! Ask mom and dad to read all your OTNOT posts and ask them what they think. Ask them, please!!!!

[Heracleum Persicum]

.

Alabama crops is rotting .. no pickers


https://mic.com/articles/8272/alabama-i ... .Jr9hxRws2


http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/undocumented ... on-alabama


.

[Apollonius]

In the meantime, how about a selfie with all the illegal immigrants, or poor black people that live in your house, and that you provide with means of support?

Dude, that 3X-20X mean American income can do a lot of good if you just hand it over to the needy! How much does a 3 star sushi meal cost? How many big Macs could it buy? ...

Davi to Hollywood elite: Invite illegal aliens and refugees to the Oscars… or you’re racists! - Robert Davi, Breitbart, 14 February 2017
http://www.breitbart.com/big-hollywood/ ... fterparty/

My Dear friends and colleagues,

I have recently been pondering President Trump’s executive action with regard to our nation having extreme vetting and our immigration policy finally being enforced. It has pained me deeply to see such a violent reaction to something that, to my mind, makes absolute common sense.

Let me begin by saying that I am from a family of immigrants that came to this country for a better life. They came to the US "legally," assimilated, integrated, and learned English to the best of their ability, and demanded we speak it. As we all know, we live in a time in which there are forces who wish to destroy our way of life.

There are thousands of illegal immigrant criminals in the United States whose country of origin will not take them back. These criminals are free on the streets of America.

We have recently heard from a plethora of Hollywood stars on this issue — Meryl Streep, Robert DeNiro, Ashley Judd, Madonna, major agencies, musicians, singers and even the indomitable Shia LaBeouf. After much prayer on this issue, I must now stand in solidarity with all of my Hollywood elite brethren. They are right! The rest of you are wrong!

It is now in this spirit that I make an appeal to all in Hollywood and the media for us to use the Oscars to take a stand for the entire world to see and hear. It is time for Hollywood to lead the way.

I propose that Meryl Steep, Chelsea Handler, Richard Gere, Robert DeNiro, Christoph Waltz and others lead an Oscar first: let’s do away with the rules, barriers, and tickets to the Oscars and after-parties, such as the swanky Vanity Fair party or the Weinsteins’ star-studded affair. I ask all migrants, all illegal immigrant criminals and all un-vetted refugees to converge on Hollywood to come to the Oscars and all the after-parties, even those held at the mansions or the Chateau Marmont or anywhere else. After all, we in the Hollywood community want to show all Islamic extremists that we have love in our hearts — and what better way to do that than by inviting them along on our most important night?

[Doc]

You think your conservative Chicagoland friends or folks in Iowa are actually worried about black-on-black crime?

I don't recall saying that I have friends in Iowa.
As for the ones in Chicagoland, yes, they are. No one likes have high crime zones in their city.

Black-on-black crime is the consequence of more than a century of economic discrimination, ghettoization, redlining, and voter disenfranchisement.

I don't think so. The Civil Rights Act was necessary, however, the Great Society program destroyed black families and a once thriving
self-reliant community creating a cycle of dependency.
Fortunately for minorities such as Chinese, Japanese, and others there was no such program.

The top fear conservatives in the burbs have is poor black people moving nearby.

Who would want people with a history of propensity for crime and violence in their neighbourhood?

http://heyjackass.com/

Middle and upper class blacks don't want them either.

f3PJF0YE-x4

Plummeting crime rates haven't stopped the wacko righties from screaming for more law enforcement and racial profiling. Hell, that was one of the pillars of the Trump candidacy, inexplicably.

Looking forward to the references.

Here you go

151231_crime-murder_v3.png (43.86 KiB) Viewed 959 times

[Simple Minded]

....

the problems of black america and the legacy of slavery is something that most countries dont have, so who's to know what the right answer to that is except time and a willingness to stop looking backwards from all sides.

Pretty much an issue that varies from zip code to zip code. Most of the places I have lived, 95%+ of the people will look you in to eye and could not care less about your race. Those have always been low population density regions.

Assuming the average person gets to know two people a week well enough to be on a first name basis, that is sill only about 8,000 or so people in a lifetime. Pretty small percentage of a 320,000,000+ population.

But I hear from the MSM, that there are some zip codes where race is the only thing the residents care about.

I don't know anyone who has ever had to deal with the black community or the white community, but I know lots of people who deal with black individuals and white individuals all the time.

Strange huh?

[Typhoon]

. . .

Plummeting crime rates haven't stopped the wacko righties from screaming for more law enforcement and racial profiling. Hell, that was one of the pillars of the Trump candidacy, inexplicably.

Looking forward to the references.

Here you go

151231_crime-murder_v3.png

Not the references I was referring to, but thank you.

Two year comparisons have little, if any, information without historical context.

Chicago:



There was clearly a spike in the homicide rate last year against what had been a long downward trend, followed by a noisy plateau, from a peak [back when I lived in the Midwest].

[Doc]

. . .

Plummeting crime rates haven't stopped the wacko righties from screaming for more law enforcement and racial profiling. Hell, that was one of the pillars of the Trump candidacy, inexplicably.

Looking forward to the references.

Here you go

151231_crime-murder_v3.png

Not the references I was referring to, but thank you.

Two year comparisons have little, if any, information without historical context.

Chicago:



There was clearly a spike in the homicide rate last year against what had been a long downward trend from a peak [back when I lived in the Midwest].

The year before as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Michael_Brown

[noddy]

apparently more europeans are rednecks than rednecks are.

curious.

german moral leadership is showing through.

gargle.

[Typhoon]

The cognitive dissonance between the ruling chattering classes and the proletariat has not been this large in Europe for decades.
The upcoming French P-election will be telling.

Although some in Europe got a bit carried away with their disapproval.

Reason | Refugee Rape Mobs on New Year's Eve Were a Hoax, Say German Police

"Masses of refugees were not responsible for any sexual assaults in the Fressgass over New Year," police said, according to English-language Euro paper The Local. "The accusations are completely baseless." May and Irina are currently under investigation by police for making up the incidents, the paper says.

Meanwhile, Bild—a publication accused by Germany's left of routinely stoking anti-immigrant sentiment—published a statement on its website Tuesday saying the paper "apologizes expressly for the untruthful article and the accusations made in it. This article in no way met the journalistic standards of Bild." On Twitter, Bild Editor-in-Chief Julian Reichelt apologized and said there would be consequences at the paper.

On the other hand, Europe has experienced a series of serious terrorist attacks by Muslim faction groups over the last several years. which has certainly helped shape public perception.

[noddy]

yeh, saw that - its 'truthy' in the sense that bild thought thats what its audience wanted to read.

[Simple Minded]

Which would be remarkable considering I'm not American, not right wing, and have healthy retina.
.

I would like to see your supporting... data....

[Simple Minded]

yeh, saw that - its 'truthy' in the sense that bild thought thats what its audience wanted to read.

The market determines what writers publish. See the graph you posted. Nothing new about that. Same with tit mags.

Reference the graph, gold bars are the insulated elitists who think outhouses are composting toilets.

[YMix]

Which would be remarkable considering I'm not American, not right wing, and have healthy retina.
.

I would like to see your supporting... data....

But will you see eye to eye on that?

[Typhoon]

Which would be remarkable considering I'm not American, not right wing, and have healthy retina.
.

I would like to see your supporting... data....

That would be telling.

[Typhoon]

apparently more europeans are rednecks than rednecks are.

curious.

german moral leadership is showing through.

gargle.

Cultural memory is long, sometimes too long. The Poles remember the Polish-Lithuanian Hussars, led by John III Sobieski of the Commonwealth, stopping the last Muslim invasion of Europe at the gates of Vienna and the Hungarians remember the Ottoman occupation.

Yet, oddly enough, both Poland and Lithuania have native Muslim populations dating back to the 14th century.

[Heracleum Persicum]

.


Haaretz
' Where God Had Sex '

"America and Israel, we have a joint enemy: Iran. They call Israel the little Satan. They call America the great Satan. So when it comes to Satanism, thanks to us, America is great again,"

n-HXJ7M70kA


.

[Doc]

[Zack Morris]

The Civil Rights Act was necessary, however, the Great Society program destroyed black families and a once thriving

False. Care to provide any references?

self-reliant community creating a cycle of dependency.
Fortunately for minorities such as Chinese, Japanese, and others there was no such program.

Your analysis of African American pathologies is woefully inaccurate. If you bother to panic Google for supporting references to your first claim above, you'll maybe start to see why.

Who would want people with a history of propensity for crime and violence in their neighbourhood?

They were more than happy not all that long ago to have them living under the same roof so long as they were slaves. Housing discrimination in the US has a long history. Conservatives can't have it both ways here: decrying government housing as a liberal plot to ghettoize blacks and create a hostage voter bloc while simultaneously opposing integration efforts. It's the laughable position that Mr P likes to take: that only Democratic cities have failing black communities. Apart from being technically untrue, it's a hilarious statement given that blacks are virtually non-existent in GOP-dominated areas. Where he lives (suburban/rural Washington state), there are none at all!

Plummeting crime rates haven't stopped the wacko righties from screaming for more law enforcement and racial profiling. Hell, that was one of the pillars of the Trump candidacy, inexplicably.

Looking forward to the references.

None required, given that virtually very one of his campaign speeches (and even his inaugural address, for Chrissakes!) dwells on this "fake news" topic.

[Zack Morris]

Actually, no. The US so-called progressive media is obsessed with the classifying people according to race (and gender and sexual orientation and . . . ) as much, if not more so, than US social conservatives. Their online media are full of it every day. These so-called progressives big mistake is a familiar historic one, assuming that individuals and society are a tabula rasa - blank slate - on whom new social norms can easily be imposed, er, legislated, er, written. Push back is the natural to-be-expected reaction. Doc alluded to this in another thread when he wrote about "cultural imperialism". If he is correct, and it is not just "the economy, stupid", then the US Senate is going to have a Republican majority for a while yet.

These arguments are logically incoherent. On the one hand, liberals are "obsessed" with the verifiable reality of identity groups and the very human tendency to stereotype and generalize, but then you claim that liberals believe everyone is a blank terminal ready to be reprogrammed with a flick of the President's pen. I'm surprised conservatives have so much difficulty grasping this. Social identity is a function of history and environment. Government and societal institutions play an enormous role in that and everyone -- especially conservatives -- agree that they have the power to shape human behavior going forward. It's logically inconsistent for you to argue otherwise.

I admit I'm impressed you can make sense of anything Doc says but his claim of being subjected to "cultural imperialism" is more evidence of just how delusional and paranoid conservatives have become. How can the dominant class be subjected to cultural imperialism by their own society? They can't, of course. But this hasn't stopped conservative, white Christians from crying about the "discrimination" they allegedly face for decades. These are the same people who I now hear claiming -- with a straight face! -- that racism didn't exist before Obama.