Finding God

[Simple Minded]

My take on finding God is that it may help to look in all places where he is not i.e. to find God via negation, but it will only prove that searching won't deliver what you are looking for. I don't think God wants to be found because that would suggest that he could be lost like a set of keys or is playing hide and seek with us.

Love it.

That would explain why someone else can't find your god or vice versa.

[Mr. Perfect]

you cant get a grip on the world from twitter or youtube. leave your bunker, visit some people.

You know it's weird, I often see you criticize Conservatives for giving up on issues or things, and yet every time I turn around you are giving up on issues and things.

[Mr. Perfect]

My take on finding God is that it may help to look in all places where he is not i.e. to find God via negation, but it will only prove that searching won't deliver what you are looking for. I don't think God wants to be found because that would suggest that he could be lost like a set of keys or is playing hide and seek with us.

Love it.

That would explain why someone else can't find your god or vice versa.

About 2 billion people have found my God.

[noddy]

you cant get a grip on the world from twitter or youtube. leave your bunker, visit some people.

You know it's weird, I often see you criticize Conservatives for giving up on issues or things, and yet every time I turn around you are giving up on issues and things.

you cut out the bit were i was calling bullshit on the atheists coming to kill me... you may have forgotten that i am an atheist and dont find them as terrifying as perhaps some do.

[Mr. Perfect]

Ermm they aren't coming to kill you because you are one of them.

[noddy]

australian politics travels on different levels to american politics.

for a start, we have centralised healthcare and didnt end up with death panels, all that happened was a generation later the government wants to get rid of it for costing too much and their are tax penalties for not using private healthcare.

very ho hum.

also, most of our immigrants are middle class chinese or indians, not south american socialists , and both of those only moved to australia for private ownership and business rights so they are ruthlessly anti lefty and dragging the country to the right, not the left.

5% of the population votes for the folks you are frightened of and they only have stronghold in one city - melbourne, even that is only in a few suburbs.

my only concern is too much immigration cutting down our forests and creating ghettos, culturally, id happily swap white leftists for entrepeneurial asians.

[Simple Minded]

My take on finding God is that it may help to look in all places where he is not i.e. to find God via negation, but it will only prove that searching won't deliver what you are looking for. I don't think God wants to be found because that would suggest that he could be lost like a set of keys or is playing hide and seek with us.

After some more thought, I think I have a different take on what you say.

"Look in the all places where he is not..." such as not on the screen of your smartphone? Am I getting warm?

But if you don't have God's contact info (address, cell phone, work phone, email, etc.) in your smartphone, can your claims be validated that:
a. you found him
or
b. he is "your" god

Kinda like the chic that says "yeah! I'd love to go out with you sometime! we really should get together, soon!" But never gives you any contact information.

[Simple Minded]

australian politics travels on different levels to american politics.

Weird, almost sounds..... Un-American.

[Mr. Perfect]

australian politics travels on different levels to american politics.

for a start, we have centralised healthcare and didnt end up with death panels, all that happened was a generation later the government wants to get rid of it for costing too much and their are tax penalties for not using private healthcare.

very ho hum.

also, most of our immigrants are middle class chinese or indians, not south american socialists , and both of those only moved to australia for private ownership and business rights so they are ruthlessly anti lefty and dragging the country to the right, not the left.

5% of the population votes for the folks you are frightened of and they only have stronghold in one city - melbourne, even that is only in a few suburbs.

my only concern is too much immigration cutting down our forests and creating ghettos, culturally, id happily swap white leftists for entrepeneurial asians.

What does this have to do with atheism?

[Mr. Perfect]

This is quite good. I have grown to like this guy.

yto4jXOOen8

[Parodite]

My take on finding God is that it may help to look in all places where he is not i.e. to find God via negation, but it will only prove that searching won't deliver what you are looking for. I don't think God wants to be found because that would suggest that he could be lost like a set of keys or is playing hide and seek with us.

After some more thought, I think I have a different take on what you say.

"Look in the all places where he is not..." such as not on the screen of your smartphone? Am I getting warm?

But if you don't have God's contact info (address, cell phone, work phone, email, etc.) in your smartphone, can your claims be validated that:
a. you found him
or
b. he is "your" god

Kinda like the chic that says "yeah! I'd love to go out with you sometime! we really should get together, soon!" But never gives you any contact information.

Just sayin'.. a God that can be found results in that kind of weirdonesses. And always more.

If your look for God in order to find him, it means you must have at least some idea of what you are looking for. If you never met your biological father and go on a search it is doomed to fail without some information. So what information do the searchers for God have about God? Lo and behold.. they got that information from others.

A God that can be found.. can also be lost. He can move in and out of existence. He can put his creative hands to work and grab that zombie clay..sculpting the cosmos and all organisms on planet earth into being. Then his hands withdrew...and by sheer magic the cosmos and carbon based life continue to exist.. and work.

On occasion his Hands were needed to create new species.. and without anyone noticing... oops he did it again! Then his hands left through the backdoor. Although they might come back in later, as they always did in the past. Oops after oops.

The God that can be found and lost... acts specific. He sends prophets and messiahs if needed. Is silent and passive in between. He also heralds and privileges the painful death of one, like his beloveth Son.. but lets the painful death of millions of others unnoticed and forgotten. His morality is like mood swings... in-out, present and gone, saved or let go to die without mercy.

All that is the God that can be found... and lost. He is immoral, a-moral at best. A demon hiding himself in a divine cloak and all the saints supporting him. A bi-polar mess.

[Mr. Perfect]

If you have no information about your father it doesn't change the fact that you have one. Your existence is evidence of your father's existence. The question is how do you find him.

Giving people free will and the ability to choose between good and evil I would not say is immoral, I would say it is the opposite. Once we are given the freedom to act, our acts are not his responsibility, but terrifyingly they are ours.

Much like a willful teen, chomping at the bit to drive a car and then when they get their license and proceed to wrap their car around a tree, we need to find someone else to blame. Anything else. Even our parents. Anyone but us.

A father who knows that when his children reach a certain age, he can no longer control them, rather they will be set loose to make a mess of things, and instead of being thanked for the freedom he knows he will be loathed for the freedom. There is some bipolar going on, I think though it is found in other places.

[Parodite]

If you have no information about your father it doesn't change the fact that you have one. Your existence is evidence of your father's existence. The question is how do you find him.

A question that springs from a delusion. God does not like what you are saying.

Giving people free will and the ability to choose between good and evil I would not say is immoral, I would say it is the opposite. Once we are given the freedom to act, our acts are not his responsibility, but terrifyingly they are ours.

Much like a willful teen, chomping at the bit to drive a car and then when they get their license and proceed to wrap their car around a tree, we need to find someone else to blame. Anything else. Even our parents. Anyone but us.

A father who knows that when his children reach a certain age, he can no longer control them, rather they will be set loose to make a mess of things, and instead of being thanked for the freedom he knows he will be loathed for the freedom. There is some bipolar going on, I think though it is found in other places.

Again, God is gnawing his own teeth hearing you say this. God moving in or out. Acting or remaining passive. Can be found can be lost. Giving us absolute freedom and maximum responsibility, hence not stopping the gas chambers. Or tsunamis and earth quakes. Viruses and so on. Alzheimer may not be such a bad last chapter of a human life.

[Mr. Perfect]

Let me know your thoughts on this parodite I would be fascinated to know what you think.

I find some atheist/agnostic seem to be under the impression that God would create a paradise with no suffering, from man or nature.

Well, he did, it was called the Garden of Eden. However, we fell from the garden to what we call the fallen world. This is a world the scriptures say is in the thralls of Satan. Putting that aside for a moment, this world is fallen, it is the next world that you are skipping ahead to.

But we are not in the next world. This one was created so we could experience free will and natural laws. Once you ask for free will for yourself, then you must allow others to have it. Once others have it they may kill you. It's part of the package.

And again, you seem to be arguing from a position of moral outrage. In order to be outraged morally you first need morals. And where do morals come from? Morals are invisible, like God, yet you treat them as real. So I would suggest, at this stage, that the invisible morals you are arguing from may have something to do with God who might then have to exist.

[Parodite]

Let me know your thoughts on this parodite I would be fascinated to know what you think.

I find some atheist/agnostic seem to be under the impression that God would create a paradise with no suffering, from man or nature.

Well, he did, it was called the Garden of Eden. However, we fell from the garden to what we call the fallen world. This is a world the scriptures say is in the thralls of Satan. Putting that aside for a moment, this world is fallen, it is the next world that you are skipping ahead to.

But we are not in the next world. This one was created so we could experience free will and natural laws. Once you ask for free will for yourself, then you must allow others to have it. Once others have it they may kill you. It's part of the package.

And again, you seem to be arguing from a position of moral outrage. In order to be outraged morally you first need morals. And where do morals come from? Morals are invisible, like God, yet you treat them as real. So I would suggest, at this stage, that the invisible morals you are arguing from may have something to do with God who might then have to exist.

I have no profound moral outrage about "the fallen" world and blame nobody. I think of the world more as "far from ideal" (a pun understatement) where by contrast there is also a lot of beauty and breathtaking magic to be found, and love always poring through some cracks as part of any miserable package.

As a teenager I made a serious effort making rational sense of the world, of existence and also scanned through the bible. Took a dive into Buddhism and forced myself to read philosophy (the existing record is 30 pages of philosophy and it is old). But I couldn't do it. No way anything could make any sense, or rather give me what I was looking for. Maybe out of despair my mode of trying to understand written texts has shifted from rational to musical. So when I read biblical text, or what you or anyone says about whatever not-immediately factual, I listen to it like music. My own rational mind sets the metric and beat but other than that it is just feeling and mood that inform me.

[Parodite]

To be a bit more specific:

And again, you seem to be arguing from a position of moral outrage. In order to be outraged morally you first need morals.

So again: I'm not morally outraged about our far from ideal world, so I'm not morally outraged at God either. I don't blame him at all. I do think however some of the Godcepts (conceptualizations of God) are outrageously silly. Especially the one where God is an almighty father who exposes us to the whims of volcanoes and tsunamis and gave us absolute free will with the price of him not stepping in when the gas chambers are burning. I'm amazed (although not really worried) that so many people still fall for it. But all the more interested why they do. Why do they?

And where do morals come from? Morals are invisible, like God, yet you treat them as real. So I would suggest, at this stage, that the invisible morals you are arguing from may have something to do with God who might then have to exist.

Morals are like any other feeling, of like-dislike judgment. Invisible experiences of conscious-sentient beings that get codified into rules of law that can be written down, orally transmitted or woven into a culture at large that control/shape social behavior. The chaos-order stuff Jordan Peterson talks about. The argument that morals should be more than that is very weak. I have some sympathy for the idea that God represents our highest moral ideal so to speak, but the fact that there exist so many different Gods and versions of God, disproves that point rather convincingly.

Now of course the argument can be made that since all Godcepts created by humans can only be imperfect, one has to assume an ultimate God to exist who is the source of everything. The thought is that something cannot come from nothing. So one can cap the causal and moral chains with a King of Kings, a God above all other Gods as source and unmoved mover. I certainly advocate to stop there where the buck really stops and not try go beyond the Ultimate - if you want to retain a modicum of mental health. But mental health is for the weak. Only the insane go further and find God. They will never come with reasonable answers though and are unable to express what they found. When they do talk about what they found, you only hear what you yourself are about to loose.

[Nonc Hilaire]

The "Godcepts" are similitudes. Metaphor, allegory, simile etc. We say "Jesus is my rock" but do not take that literally.

We say "God is love" and we do take that literally, but language is still involved.

All "Godcepts" are semiotic signs pointing towards God, not an attempt to circumscribe limits on divinity.

[Mr. Perfect]

To be a bit more specific:

So again: I'm not morally outraged about our far from ideal world, so I'm not morally outraged at God either. I don't blame him at all. I do think however some of the Godcepts (conceptualizations of God) are outrageously silly. Especially the one where God is an almighty father who exposes us to the whims of volcanoes and tsunamis and gave us absolute free will with the price of him not stepping in when the gas chambers are burning. I'm amazed (although not really worried) that so many people still fall for it. But all the more interested why they do. Why do they?

We can only draw one conclusion: God did it. Sam Harris would say we have no choice in the matter. We analyze the situation and conclude God.

But to aslo be more specific, the theodicy seems to fall into 2 categories; suffering from others, and suffering from nature.

The first one I think we agree can be acceptable. But let's examine the second.

First off, to answer your question I was enculturated into Christianity and therefore Conservatism when I was a youth in home and church but I was also enculturated into liberalism in school. Time wise an equal amount of exposure. However from earliest remembrance I didn't like liberalism and the Bible just made sense. Such has been the trajectory of my life.

However to address the volcano issue, none of this stuff perplexed me in the slightest, from the earliest times. I just assumed it would all work out in the end. God was bigger than us all, and i'm sure had his reasons.

But to skip to the end, I am toying with the theodicy, and I think free will is an adequate explanation for half of it, but the explanation for volcanoes and child fatalities I think comes under the following; we must be exposed to natural laws and learn to live by them. To be subject to them is to be exposed to consequences. Thats my short answer.

Morals are like any other feeling, of like-dislike judgment. Invisible experiences of conscious-sentient beings that get codified into rules of law that can be written down, orally transmitted or woven into a culture at large that control/shape social behavior. The chaos-order stuff Jordan Peterson talks about. The argument that morals should be more than that is very weak. I have some sympathy for the idea that God represents our highest moral ideal so to speak, but the fact that there exist so many different Gods and versions of God, disproves that point rather convincingly.

Now of course the argument can be made that since all Godcepts created by humans can only be imperfect, one has to assume an ultimate God to exist who is the source of everything. The thought is that something cannot come from nothing. So one can cap the causal and moral chains with a King of Kings, a God above all other Gods as source and unmoved mover. I certainly advocate to stop there where the buck really stops and not try go beyond the Ultimate - if you want to retain a modicum of mental health. But mental health is for the weak. Only the insane go further and find God. They will never come with reasonable answers though and are unable to express what they found. When they do talk about what they found, you only hear what you yourself are about to loose.

Except morals could be real. If morals are real then there is a higher power. Then the only question left is what is the nature of that power. I have some thoughts.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

For me it's a couple of subliminal presuppositions that comes from the base brain that doesn't do language and doesn't engage reason. One, an intense hostility and fear of death and two, the need to be incorporated into the timeline. To be limited to this current fit of consciousness causes me intense depression, indifference or rage depending on the moment. In short, nihilism in a very bitter state of mind......

God is necessary like a muffler on your lawn mower. It's so that you can stand to be near the thing which is life.......

[Mr. Perfect]

For me it's a couple of subliminal presuppositions that comes from the base brain that doesn't do language and doesn't engage reason. One, an intense hostility and fear of death and two, the need to be incorporated into the timeline. To be limited to this current fit of consciousness causes me intense depression, indifference or rage depending on the moment. In short, nihilism in a very bitter state of mind......

That's very interesting I would like to hear more

[Simple Minded]

For me it's a couple of subliminal presuppositions that comes from the base brain that doesn't do language and doesn't engage reason. One, an intense hostility and fear of death and two, the need to be incorporated into the timeline. To be limited to this current fit of consciousness causes me intense depression, indifference or rage depending on the moment. In short, nihilism in a very bitter state of mind......

God is necessary like a muffler on your lawn mower. It's so that you can stand to be near the thing which is life.......

very poetic and fitting. I have often thought, if god is real or a rationalization, who cares if it is a belief that helps one deal with life.

it is also a social bonding activity.

I love you LG!

[Typhoon]

The religious who obsess about atheists and atheists who obsess about the religious are far more similar than different.

Both harbour deep seated insecurities regarding their respective beliefs.

Lacking any self-awareness and incapable of self-reflection, they instead spend their efforts attempting to mind other people's business.

[Mr. Perfect]

Projection, strawmen and triangulation wrapped into one. Well played.

[Simple Minded]

The religious who obsess about atheists and atheists who obsess about the religious are far more similar than different.

Both harbour deep seated insecurities regarding their respective beliefs.

Lacking any self-awareness and incapable of self-reflection, they instead spend their efforts attempting to mind other people's business.

Well said. IME, both are like meddling Mother-in-laws who are bored with their own lives..... so they screw with other people...... in the name of compassion, kindness, and.... love, of course.

"

A man that has no virtue in himself, ever envies virtue in others, for men's minds will either feed upon their own good or upon other's evil, and he who lacks the one will prey upon the other.
Fancis Bacon

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C.S. Lewis

The jealous are troublesome to others, but a torment to themselves.
William Penn

When you call yourself an Indian or a Muslim or a Christian or a European, or anything else, you are being violent. Do you see why it is violent? Because you are separating yourself from the rest of mankind. When you separate yourself by belief, by nationality, by tradition, it breeds violence. So a man who is seeking to understand violence does not belong to any country, to any religion, to any political party or partial system; he is concerned with the total understanding of mankind.
J. Krishnamurti

The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve.
H.L. Mencken

Defend me from altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Maréchal Villars

He who would do good to another must do it in Minute Particulars. General Good is the plea of the scoundrel, hypocrite and flatterer. - William Blake

By oneself, evil is done; and by oneself one suffers. By oneself, evil is left undone, and by oneself one is purified. Purity and impurity are personal concerns; no one can purify another.

[Typhoon]

Pedantic correction

May God defend me from altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.

~ Typhoon, after Maréchal Villars