Mr. Perfect wrote:You are fascinating me on levels I haven't felt in some time.Simple Minded wrote:No point in looking for a god that does not suit one's needs.
Isn't that that whole point of blogging?
Mr. Perfect wrote:You are fascinating me on levels I haven't felt in some time.Simple Minded wrote:No point in looking for a god that does not suit one's needs.
God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?
Perhaps God created the universe as a simulation to study the nature of good and eWill?Colonel Sun wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:54 am Epicurus' Trilemma is a version of the problem of evil.
Lactantius attributes this trilemma to Epicurus in De Ira Dei, 13, 20-21:
God, he says, either wishes to take away evils, and is unable; or He is able, and is unwilling; or He is neither willing nor able, or He is both willing and able. If He is willing and is unable, He is feeble, which is not in accordance with the character of God; if He is able and unwilling, He is envious, which is equally at variance with God; if He is neither willing nor able, He is both envious and feeble, and therefore not God; if He is both willing and able, which alone is suitable to God, from what source then are evils? Or why does He not remove them?
strikes me as an apt description of any deity credited with allegedly creating this universe.
IIRC, it was Lazarus Long who stated "Men never succeeds in inventing a god superior to himself. Most gods have the manners and morals of a spoiled child."Colonel Sun wrote: ↑Tue Jun 08, 2021 7:49 amstrikes me as an apt description of any deity credited with allegedly creating this universe.
to me thats not even wrong about the complaint itselfNonc Hilaire wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:31 am Good and evil are not a binary concept. They are two entirely different things.
As the good Colonel would say, Epictitous is not even wrong. Epi’s viewpoint is as absurd as saying rust and rot are the inverse of the processes of building and engineering.
no doubt another planet has far more interesting versions of life form than us, which is using up all the attention.Parodite wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:52 am Q: Hi God, who or what are you and why?
God: The question never occurs to me.
Q: And the question of good and evil? Suffering and salvation?
God: No questions no answers there either, sorry
Q: Try this one. I wonder, why am I?
God: How could reason or cause be of any help to you? Infinite regress. If I created you, then who created me? Maybe you did.. on a sad Monday morning, God forbid. And so on.
Q: Looks like we are in an self-referential loop, or something that will spiral out of control!
God: If true, so what?
Q: You think it is true?
God: Surely not. Just that all answers you find give rise to new questions which render the initial answer incomplete, possibly wrong or even... not even wrong. Where does that leave you?
Q: Looks like it leaves me being wrong all the time. Not even wrong being the default.
God: But I'm always with you, don't worry. In fact, you being not even wrong is my life insurance. I'm only in danger when you go beyond that. But.. it could also be my own salvation. The road to freedom, the end of your torturous investigations! It's not really fun being created and killed the next moment, over and over again.
Q: Sounds like you prefer me going completely mad so you can get rid of me like an annoying tick!
God: Ticks fall off naturally after they sucked enough blood, so I'm not worried. One day you stop harassing me.
Q: So I'm just a God-sucker as far as you're concerned.
God: I'm not concerned. Just showing you, that your way of questioning turns you into a tick of sorts.
Q: But you love all creatures don't you. Gotcha!
God: The ticks were friendly enough to finally let me go. They moved on to other hosts. They never bother me any longer also because I smell very bad lately! Stench is protecting me. Made sure of that, works like a charm. They are my best friends now because we mind our own business. We don't need to kill nor save each other. No questions no answers. That would be a good definition of heaven, don't you think?
Q: I don't know. It might too boring for me there. But if you feel at home in such a place... who am I to interfere.
God: And there you have your answer to the "Who am I?" <satisfied grinning>. You guessed it: you are an interfering, irritating, blood sucking bug. Now repent!
I can understand that Epicurus' Trilemma would upset believers, but that does not make it go away.noddy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:55 amto me thats not even wrong about the complaint itselfNonc Hilaire wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:31 am Good and evil are not a binary concept. They are two entirely different things.
As the good Colonel would say, Epictitus is not even wrong. Epi’s viewpoint is as absurd as saying rust and rot are the inverse of the processes of building and engineering.
that version of god is indifferent or powerless to the outcomes in the creation, which is another word for irrelevant.
a parent that sits back and watches the child drown requires a very specific definition of love, one that most of us atheist types don't see.
Welcome back Parodite, or God, whatever you call yourself...... the world's a better place with you in it!Parodite wrote: ↑Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:52 am Q: Hi God, who or what are you and why?
God: The question never occurs to me.
Q: And the question of good and evil? Suffering and salvation?
God: No questions no answers there either, sorry
Q: Try this one. I wonder, why am I?
God: How could reason or cause be of any help to you? Infinite regress. If I created you, then who created me? Maybe you did.. on a sad Monday morning, God forbid. And so on.
Q: Looks like we are in an self-referential loop, or something that will spiral out of control!
God: If true, so what?
Q: You think it is true?
God: Surely not. Just that all answers you find give rise to new questions which render the initial answer incomplete, possibly wrong or even... not even wrong. Where does that leave you?
Q: Looks like it leaves me being wrong all the time. Not even wrong being the default.
God: But I'm always with you, don't worry. In fact, you being not even wrong is my life insurance. I'm only in danger when you go beyond that. But.. it could also be my own salvation. The road to freedom, the end of your torturous investigations! It's not really fun being created and killed the next moment, over and over again.
Q: Sounds like you prefer me going completely mad so you can get rid of me like an annoying tick!
God: Ticks fall off naturally after they sucked enough blood, so I'm not worried. One day you stop harassing me.
Q: So I'm just a God-sucker as far as you're concerned.
God: I'm not concerned. Just showing you, that your way of questioning turns you into a tick of sorts.
Q: But you love all creatures don't you. Gotcha!
God: The ticks were friendly enough to finally let me go. They moved on to other hosts. They never bother me any longer also because I smell very bad lately! Stench is protecting me. Made sure of that, works like a charm. They are my best friends now because we mind our own business. We don't need to kill nor save each other. No questions no answers. That would be a good definition of heaven, don't you think?
Q: I don't know. It might too boring for me there. But if you feel at home in such a place... who am I to interfere.
God: And there you have your answer to the "Who am I?" <satisfied grinning>. You guessed it: you are an interfering, irritating, blood sucking bug. Now repent!
Yeah, but someone is keeping the cats from picking up guns! If not God(s), then who (Wu?)?Colonel Sun wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:30 am
With regards to life on earth, this physical law necessitates the existence of the food chain - eat and try to avoid being eaten - until disease and age eventually takes their toll.
It is difficult for me to reconcile "nature red in tooth and claw" with all powerful metaphysical deities or a deity having purposely created such a universe.
If so, then I can understand indifferent or even malevolent deities or deity, but not ones or one who are/is caring and/or loving.
A quip, attributed to Epicurus, is thatSimple Minded wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:44 pmYeah, but someone is keeping the cats from picking up guns! If not God(s), then who (Wu?)?Colonel Sun wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:30 am
With regards to life on earth, this physical law necessitates the existence of the food chain - eat and try to avoid being eaten - until disease and age eventually takes their toll.
It is difficult for me to reconcile "nature red in tooth and claw" with all powerful metaphysical deities or a deity having purposely created such a universe.
If so, then I can understand indifferent or even malevolent deities or deity, but not ones or one who are/is caring and/or loving.
Thanks Bre. Well, I'm a bit overly busy with earthly survival issues lately so haven't been able to be there for God much. But seriously... she/he/it obviously needs help. To be a friend who is there and just listens would already help God, I suspect! God being eternally omnipotent or forever impotent... who knows. All knowing or... perhaps not so much, when unknown unknowns terrorize His dreams. Or being of such an unfathomably different nature that no finger of a stranger can find a single crack in the Dome of the Unknown (a place you won't find on any map anyways), where no human desperate or thankful thought ever reaches you as all thought evaporates at the event horizon. Imagine you created a black hole for fun but are sucked into it never to get out again. All relative time stopped. Eternal death row. Solitary confinement. Let's not do this to God.Simple Minded wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:41 pm Welcome back Parodite, or God, whatever you call yourself...... the world's a better place with you in it!
That's why, IMSMO, Lazarus Long got it right. Humans can imagine the concept of God, but we can't imagine his existence, behavior, or perspective. At least in anything outside of our own life experience. So far, there seem to be 7 billion + gods and counting. Even atheist gods who aren't very powerful.Parodite wrote: ↑Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:50 pmThanks Bre. Well, I'm a bit overly busy with earthly survival issues lately so haven't been able to be there for God much. But seriously... she/he/it obviously needs help. To be a friend who is there and just listens would already help God, I suspect! God being eternally omnipotent or forever impotent... who knows. All knowing or... perhaps not so much, when unknown unknowns terrorize His dreams. Or being of such an unfathomably different nature that no finger of a stranger can find a single crack in the Dome of the Unknown (a place you won't find on any map anyways), where no human desperate or thankful thought ever reaches you as all thought evaporates at the event horizon. Imagine you created a black hole for fun but are sucked into it never to get out again. All relative time stopped. Eternal death row. Solitary confinement. Let's not do this to God.Simple Minded wrote: ↑Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:41 pm Welcome back Parodite, or God, whatever you call yourself...... the world's a better place with you in it!
It is also possible God is suffering more than any sentient organism ever suffered or will suffer in the future! For instance, what if she-he-it is all that is, was and will be.. the total sum of all past and future? It doesn't seem a nice position to be in, always being everything and everybody at the same time. It is a romantic version of God that many people prefer over the old fashioned behind the clouds, distant, anthropomorphic God who remotely watches over his unruly children, sending graceful gifts or painful punishments depending on his mood of the day... but it condemns God to eternal Hell too; He will never know what time it is, whether he is smiling or crying, being at war or at peace... when He is all that simultaneously. Let's not do this to God either!
So it seems to me, that being forever-alone or forever-everything are just two different versions of the same Hell. What other options does God have? How can he be saved from Hell? His situation, it seems to me, is much more painful and precarious than our infamous human condition. At least we know our suffering will end. That luxury and re-assurance is not something available to Him. (I'm told He tried suicide once, but it was a total failure.)