Finding God

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

On a different topic, in the process of finding God we may encounter....... the Devil:

https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/ni ... the-demon/

Lest one think Barron a metaphysical nut, his notion of the devil closely resembles the social media concept of the 'meme', a word coined by Richard Dawkins' in the 1976 book The Selfish Gene. It is "a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation and replication ... [like] melodies, fashions and learned skills [that] generally replicate through exposure to humans, who have evolved as efficient copiers of information and behavior.

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Memes are information objects that are in some sense alive, able to morph and become sufficiently viral to take over a host and produce copies of itself from its resources. Just as melodies can reproduce so can perversion. Such a thing would act like Barron's demon, turning "seminaries into 'cesspits'" or converting ancient universities into foundries of civilizational destruction as the case may be. This property was so powerful thirty years after Dawkins published his book he thought it might better have been titled The Immortal Gene.

[Parodite]

After "proving" God to exist (or not to exist) using faulty statistics, a next level of reasoning God into existence (that is equally faulty or even more so) is using the idea of the need for a first cause, an unmoved mover to explain/ground all scientific explanations:

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It all is just semantics.

The more interesting question to me, is why/how we see causality and probability everywhere in and around us. This leads inevitably, and again, to the need to understand the human brain first because the world as we know it is a model, a translation, an emulation, transmutation that cannot, at least not in a simple way, be correlated with objective experience-independent reality that becomes represented in consciousness. More likely, objective experience-independent reality is very VERY different from how we experience it to be.

[Mr. Perfect]

I had an interesting thought watching part of that.

When us God folk go to Church, none of these arguments are brought up. At all. When we do our churching all we talk about is prayer and scripture study. The fundamental is already worked out.

But if we go into public we have to do all these backflip abstractions. Nobody talks about prayer and living the teachings.

Like maybe we should tell non believers to pray and live the gospel, just to try it out and see what happens.

[Parodite]

I had an interesting thought watching part of that.

When us God folk go to Church, none of these arguments are brought up. At all. When we do our churching all we talk about is prayer and scripture study. The fundamental is already worked out.

But if we go into public we have to do all these backflip abstractions. Nobody talks about prayer and living the teachings.

Like maybe we should tell non believers to pray and live the gospel, just to try it out and see what happens.

Indeed. Converting people to a/b/ or c usually doesn't work using reason. There is probably a reason for that Most in life works fine without our reasoned justifications. Sometimes things work even better.

[Simple Minded]

I had an interesting thought watching part of that.

When us God folk go to Church, none of these arguments are brought up. At all. When we do our churching all we talk about is prayer and scripture study. The fundamental is already worked out.

But if we go into public we have to do all these backflip abstractions. Nobody talks about prayer and living the teachings.

Like maybe we should tell non believers to pray and live the gospel, just to try it out and see what happens.

Indeed. Converting people to a/b/ or c usually doesn't work using reason. There is probably a reason for that Most in life works fine without our reasoned justifications. Sometimes things work even better.

True enough gents. We can't separate ourselves from our interpretations.

God if he exists, appears to talk to some thru math, others thru music, others thru practice, others thru science, others thru empathy, others thru nature, English, German, etc.

The functioning of the Tower of Babel, or our preferred interpretations?

as three wise men once said:

You ride on the swing
In and out of the bars
Capturing moments of life in a jar
Playing with children,
Acting as stars
Guiding your visions to heaven
And heaven is in your mind
Take extra care not
To lose what up feel
The apple you're eating
Is simple and real
Water the flowers
That grow at you heel
Guiding your visions to heaven
And heaven is in your mind

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[noddy]

the thing about the "god" i find via nature or music is that he/she/it is silent on most matters of politics or day to day opinion.

which is nice, but not particularly relevant to squabbling with my fellow bald monkeys.

[Mr. Perfect]

Indeed. Converting people to a/b/ or c usually doesn't work using reason. There is probably a reason for that Most in life works fine without our reasoned justifications. Sometimes things work even better.

Yes. I used to be a big fan of reason and logic until I watched other people using it.

[Mr. Perfect]

I will amend my earlier statement.

That is, some people need intellectual arguments to reinforce their other feelings or hunches.

As such Mr. Feser has pretty good stuff.

[Simple Minded]

the thing about the "god" i find via nature or music is that he/she/it is silent on most matters of politics or day to day opinion.

which is nice, but not particularly relevant to squabbling with my fellow bald monkeys.

different processors running different operating systems......?

[Simple Minded]

Indeed. Converting people to a/b/ or c usually doesn't work using reason. There is probably a reason for that Most in life works fine without our reasoned justifications. Sometimes things work even better.

Yes. I used to be a big fan of reason and logic until I watched other people using it.

Amen Mr. P!

[noddy]

the thing about the "god" i find via nature or music is that he/she/it is silent on most matters of politics or day to day opinion.

which is nice, but not particularly relevant to squabbling with my fellow bald monkeys.

different processors running different operating systems......?

my code started off a right proper mess but it seems to slowly evolve over time

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

Indeed. Converting people to a/b/ or c usually doesn't work using reason. There is probably a reason for that Most in life works fine without our reasoned justifications. Sometimes things work even better.

Yes. I used to be a big fan of reason and logic until I watched other people using it.

Amen Mr. P!

sounds......... icky.......0_0...........

https://twitter.com/NatureisScary

[Parodite]

Indeed. Converting people to a/b/ or c usually doesn't work using reason. There is probably a reason for that Most in life works fine without our reasoned justifications. Sometimes things work even better.

Yes. I used to be a big fan of reason and logic until I watched other people using it.

Amen Mr. P!

Being, acting, thinking irrational maybe deserves to be rediscovered and honored instead of demonized. Or is that too rational a thought. Doesn't sound too unreasonable.

The End of Reason like a nice title for a new book as a response to The End of Faith

[Mr. Perfect]

I keep rewatching Feser, and am more and more impressed.

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[Parodite]

I'm sure that Feser is of help to people who maybe feel intimidated or are just irritated by people who say that believing in God is a silly thing to do because reason and science make a very strong case to reject the God hypothesis.

The summary of his proof that God exists: you need an unmoved mover, a sorta rock solid juggler to keep all that actualizes from moment to moment "up in the air".

I'd say: existence is ongoing creativity and destruction all in one. Between birth and death: beauty and ugliness, bliss and misery, discovery and loss, certainty and doubt, knowns and unknowns. And more... or less.

The Ground of being? Gob.

[Mr. Perfect]

In layman's terms, most layman observe the universe and simply say "somebody made this". He just uses better grammar, but is an effective foil in the ever growing in popularity round tables between Sam Harris and whoever.

[Mr. Perfect]

I'd say: existence is ongoing creativity and destruction all in one. Between birth and death: beauty and ugliness, bliss and misery, discovery and loss, certainty and doubt, knowns and unknowns. And more... or less.

Except those pesky laws of thermodynamics.

[noddy]

In layman's terms, most layman observe the universe and simply say "somebody made this". He just uses better grammar, but is an effective foil in the ever growing in popularity round tables between Sam Harris and whoever.

my instinctive childhood thought was that "it was always there"

its just a minor shuffle in the first cause train of thought.

[Mr. Perfect]

That's a great story and you may very well be right. However it's very hard to get the secular church to be honest about the other side. They do not like being honest.

[Mr. Perfect]

Logging in the book.

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[Typhoon]

I keep rewatching Feser, and am more and more impressed.

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One can no more prove or disprove the existence of a metaphysical god by argument, logical or otherwise,
than Hegel proved by the use of logic that only seven planets can exist in our solar system*.

*The ink was barely dry on his paper when the minor planet Ceres was discovered, the discovery of others followed.

It comes down to belief. Absent observation, either one believes that a metaphysical being or beings exist or one does not.

if-god-made-aman-in-his-own-a-image-why-12248741.png (118.53 KiB) Viewed 1480 times

[Mr. Perfect]

One can no more prove or disprove the existence of a metaphysical god by argument, logical or otherwise,
than Hegel proved by the use of logic that only seven planets can exist in our solar system*.

Depends on who you ask.

*The ink was barely dry on his paper when the minor planet Ceres was discovered, the discovery of others followed.

It comes down to belief. Absent observation, either one believes that a metaphysical being or beings exist or one does not.

if-god-made-aman-in-his-own-a-image-why-12248741.png

Some people think observing existence is evidence of God.

No one has observed one species turning into another, yet some people believe that.

Opinions vary, but some arguments stump harder than others.

[Mr. Perfect]

If you want to find God find the final judge. The one that judges all other judges. Or the one that people have faith in to judge in a way that perfectly follows the rules.

Great point.

[Simple Minded]

If you want to find God find the final judge. The one that judges all other judges. Or the one that people have faith in to judge in a way that perfectly follows the rules.

Great point.

Amen. No point in looking for a god that does not suit one's needs. There's lots to choose from.........

[Mr. Perfect]

No point in looking for a god that does not suit one's needs.

You are fascinating me on levels I haven't felt in some time.