Egypt

User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Corrupt TimocRats vs. Religious Fanatics.....

Post by monster_gardener »

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:Damn. I don't know enough detail about the last century's history of Egypt to make any learned pronouncements, but my gut is telling me I hope the MB gets the upper hand mercs every single one of people responsible for all this.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Juggernaut.

Sometimes it is hard to choose but I think I would back corrupt military timocrats ;) over religious fanatics who think that G_D has given them a perfect plan in a perfect book to make all of the World as good as it can be.....

You may be able to bribe the corrupt TimocRats........

For example to let you get out of a burning school if you are not in proper Muslim attire.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Mecca ... chool_fire

Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C. S. Lewis
http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/33029.html
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

Ibrahim wrote:https://twitter.com/Earth_Pics/status/3 ... 20/photo/1

Muslims protecting Christians in Egypt during mass.
Image
Pro-Morsi supporters burn churches, reprisal for Cairo dispersal
DEBKAfile August 14, 2013, 3:08 PM (GMT+02:00)

Muslim supporters of Mohamed Morsi torched three Christian churches in central Egypt Wednesday in reprisal attacks as security forces broke up their protest camps in Cairo. They burned down the Mar Gergiss Coptic church in Sohag and two more churches in Menia province.

Image
Sohag St. George church attacked by Morsi supporters (Mostafa Hussein)
I have no doubt many Muslims wish no harm to people of other faiths, but that's definitely not the case with the MB. Their struggle in Egypt is not for freedom, it is for a chance to oppress people who think differently from them. They should be fought hard, until they learn to respect others and be tolerant. Had the German army done that in the thirties, against the Nazis, and we would have been spared a lot of pain.
User avatar
Typhoon
Posts: 27435
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:42 pm
Location: 関西

Re: Egypt

Post by Typhoon »

Beware the man who only knows one book.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
User avatar
Juggernaut Nihilism
Posts: 1417
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:55 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Syria wrote:Hey assholes. We're still here.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
User avatar
Azrael
Posts: 1863
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Azrael »

I wonder how many of the violent acts that have taken place in Egypt in recent weeks that the military has blamed on Morsi supporters have actually been committed by agents provocateurs. I don't think that people should always take reports from the Egyptian military at face value.
cultivate a white rose
User avatar
Azrael
Posts: 1863
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Azrael »

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Syria wrote:Hey assholes. We're still here.
Don't you have your own thread, Syria?

And how did you get here? Did you pass through the Jordanian and Israeli threads, or fly to this one in a plane?
cultivate a white rose
User avatar
Azrael
Posts: 1863
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Azrael »

Ibrahim wrote:Its weird to see all of these white liberals who were shocked/disgusted at the Erdogan government for using tear gas on protesters cheer on the Egyptian military as they gun down protesters and members of the wrong political parties.
It's hypocritical; but perhaps it is a good sign that people now have much higher standards for Turkey than they do for Egypt. Now people take it for granted that Turkey should be a liberal democracy. That wasn't the case 20 years ago, when the military called the shots.

With regards to Egypt, people in the West are starting to lose patience with the violence meted out by the Egyptian military. Obama has canceled joint military exercises with Egypt and now there is even talk of cutting American funding to Egypt. Perhaps they'll even use the word "coup".
cultivate a white rose
User avatar
Alexis
Posts: 1305
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2012 2:47 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Alexis »

Interesting.

And frightening.
Egyptian Amir Salim has the classic profile of a revolutionary. As a politically engaged young lawyer, he specialized in human rights cases, a focus which earned him nine trips to jail under Hosni Mubarak. When the revolt against the aging despot gained traction in 2011, Salim quickly became one of its spokesmen. After Mubarak's fall, he founded an organization which promulgated the creation of a civilian state free from military meddling. In a book published in 2012, he dissected the structures of Mubarak's police state.

Now, the same police that Salim attacked so vehemently in his book, has responded to demonstrations in Cairo with shocking brutality. At least 623 people, the vast majority of them civilians, were killed in street battles earlier this week.

And what is Salim doing? Sitting in a popular café in the Cairo city center, he says things like this: "The Muslim Brothers are a sickness and the police have to eradicate them." And: "The police and the army were only defending themselves." He adds that "the problem will only have been solved when the last Muslim Brother who causes problems is locked away in prison." When asked about the obvious human rights violations perpetrated on the dead and wounded, he said: "And what about the rights of those who live near the protest camps? What about their right to be able to enjoy their apartment?"

Welcome to Egypt under General Abd al-Fattah al-Sissi. The country is so polarized that people are no longer able to feel any empathy whatsoever for others.

(...)

"The majority of Egyptians think the Brotherhood should be dealt with even more severely," he says, adding that few have understanding for Mohammed ElBaradei, the opposition leader and Nobel Peace Prize laureate who resigned from the transition government as a result of the bloodbath on Wednesday. Since then, Egyptian liberals have been blasting him as a traitor.

(...)

"My greatest fear seems to have come true," the activist says. "The Egyptians no longer see the authorities as their opponents. The enemy is now those Egyptians with other views."
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

Azrael wrote:With regards to Egypt, people in the West are starting to lose patience with the violence meted out by the Egyptian military.
I repeat my point: would we have shown equal disgust if in the thirties the German military had used force to repress the then popular Nazi party? The sad thing is that we would have indeed protested against such violence, and would have given Nazis the chance to commit all the crimes we have witnessed. Repressing the MB may be shocking, but maybe the Egyptian military are just avoiding a greater evil. Unfortunately we will never know whether killing a few hundred MB's now will indeed prevent greater killings in the future. And so we will opt for condemning the military.
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Right Tack to Take

Post by monster_gardener »

Azrael wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:Its weird to see all of these white liberals who were shocked/disgusted at the Erdogan government for using tear gas on protesters cheer on the Egyptian military as they gun down protesters and members of the wrong political parties.
It's hypocritical; but perhaps it is a good sign that people now have much higher standards for Turkey than they do for Egypt. Now people take it for granted that Turkey should be a liberal democracy. That wasn't the case 20 years ago, when the military called the shots.

With regards to Egypt, people in the West are starting to lose patience with the violence meted out by the Egyptian military. Obama has canceled joint military exercises with Egypt and now there is even talk of cutting American funding to Egypt. Perhaps they'll even use the word "coup".
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azrael.

IMHO cancelling the military exercises but not the money may be the right tack to take.....

Neither the Egyptian military nor US need to be seen as arm in arm chummy with each other.......

Which gives the Muslim Brothers something to point at it.......
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
Juggernaut Nihilism
Posts: 1417
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:55 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Endovelico wrote:
Azrael wrote:With regards to Egypt, people in the West are starting to lose patience with the violence meted out by the Egyptian military.
I repeat my point: would we have shown equal disgust if in the thirties the German military had used force to repress the then popular Nazi party? The sad thing is that we would have indeed protested against such violence, and would have given Nazis the chance to commit all the crimes we have witnessed. Repressing the MB may be shocking, but maybe the Egyptian military are just avoiding a greater evil. Unfortunately we will never know whether killing a few hundred MB's now will indeed prevent greater killings in the future. And so we will opt for condemning the military.
Come on bro. You're justifying every military crackdown on any group. I mean, how do we know the Chinese weren't preventing a greater evil by suppressing the Tibetans after all? I guess we'll never know, so people will just continue to blithely assume that the Chinese were in the wrong.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
Hoosiernorm
Posts: 2206
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:59 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Hoosiernorm »

Man I'm glad we aren't involved in any way with all of the bloodshed.................No Wait!
Been busy doing stuff
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Azrael wrote:With regards to Egypt, people in the West are starting to lose patience with the violence meted out by the Egyptian military.
I repeat my point: would we have shown equal disgust if in the thirties the German military had used force to repress the then popular Nazi party? The sad thing is that we would have indeed protested against such violence, and would have given Nazis the chance to commit all the crimes we have witnessed. Repressing the MB may be shocking, but maybe the Egyptian military are just avoiding a greater evil. Unfortunately we will never know whether killing a few hundred MB's now will indeed prevent greater killings in the future. And so we will opt for condemning the military.
Come on bro. You're justifying every military crackdown on any group. I mean, how do we know the Chinese weren't preventing a greater evil by suppressing the Tibetans after all? I guess we'll never know, so people will just continue to blithely assume that the Chinese were in the wrong.
I'm not justifying "every military crackdown on any group". Some military interventions are clearly abusive, but are we sure that the MB is not the type of group which would oppress those who would not toe their line? Egyptian Christians are among those who would be able to tell you what kind of movement the MB is. Are there no circumstances in which a military intervention is justified? Would we rather have an extremist party come to power than having the military taking a stand? I'm not saying there are no dangers to such interventions, but doing nothing is sometimes the worst option. In the case of Egypt I think that stopping a bunch of fanatics was the least bad option.
User avatar
Juggernaut Nihilism
Posts: 1417
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:55 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Juggernaut Nihilism »

Endovelico wrote:
Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Azrael wrote:With regards to Egypt, people in the West are starting to lose patience with the violence meted out by the Egyptian military.
I repeat my point: would we have shown equal disgust if in the thirties the German military had used force to repress the then popular Nazi party? The sad thing is that we would have indeed protested against such violence, and would have given Nazis the chance to commit all the crimes we have witnessed. Repressing the MB may be shocking, but maybe the Egyptian military are just avoiding a greater evil. Unfortunately we will never know whether killing a few hundred MB's now will indeed prevent greater killings in the future. And so we will opt for condemning the military.
Come on bro. You're justifying every military crackdown on any group. I mean, how do we know the Chinese weren't preventing a greater evil by suppressing the Tibetans after all? I guess we'll never know, so people will just continue to blithely assume that the Chinese were in the wrong.
I'm not justifying "every military crackdown on any group". Some military interventions are clearly abusive, but are we sure that the MB is not the type of group which would oppress those who would not toe their line? Egyptian Christians are among those who would be able to tell you what kind of movement the MB is. Are there no circumstances in which a military intervention is justified? Would we rather have an extremist party come to power than having the military taking a stand? I'm not saying there are no dangers to such interventions, but doing nothing is sometimes the worst option. In the case of Egypt I think that stopping a bunch of fanatics was the least bad option.
Not even saying you're necessarily wrong about the MB. All I'm saying is that your position basically amounts to "Brutally murdering Group X to keep them from taking power - even democratically - is OK because I don't like Group X."
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:Not even saying you're necessarily wrong about the MB. All I'm saying is that your position basically amounts to "Brutally murdering Group X to keep them from taking power - even democratically - is OK because I don't like Group X."
Not really. I'm not proposing using violence against a group because I don't like them. Only if there are enough indications that said group would be oppressive and even criminal. And enough indications must be based on past performance. Like what Nazis did in Germany even before taking power, and the MB in Egypt. If international law allows for foreign intervention - and thus violation of sovereignty - when a government, even a democratically elected one, is guilty of genocide or crimes against humanity, why shouldn't the military, in their own country, have the same right? Apparently there is a consensus that there are limits to the supremacy of the people's will when fundamental rights are being violated. The tricky part is proving such violation is taking place. But I guess there is enough proof of that happening in Egypt at the hands of the MB.
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

No consensus but an Excellent post.

Post by monster_gardener »

Endovelico wrote:
Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:Not even saying you're necessarily wrong about the MB. All I'm saying is that your position basically amounts to "Brutally murdering Group X to keep them from taking power - even democratically - is OK because I don't like Group X."
Not really. I'm not proposing using violence against a group because I don't like them. Only if there are enough indications that said group would be oppressive and even criminal. And enough indications must be based on past performance. Like what Nazis did in Germany even before taking power, and the MB in Egypt. If international law allows for foreign intervention - and thus violation of sovereignty - when a government, even a democratically elected one, is guilty of genocide or crimes against humanity, why shouldn't the military, in their own country, have the same right? Apparently there is a consensus that there are limits to the supremacy of the people's will when fundamental rights are being violated. The tricky part is proving such violation is taking place. But I guess there is enough proof of that happening in Egypt at the hands of the MB.
Thank You VERY MUCH for your post, Endovelico.
Apparently there is a consensus that there are limits to the supremacy of the people's will when fundamental rights are being violated.
I'm not so sure about this......

AIUI Governments in general see sovereignty as supreme ;) no matter what :shock: : China and Uz supporting the Khmer Rouge against Vietnam being a horrible example..... :evil:

But still an excellent post.......
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

MB versus TB infections...........

Post by monster_gardener »

Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:
Endovelico wrote:
Azrael wrote:With regards to Egypt, people in the West are starting to lose patience with the violence meted out by the Egyptian military.
I repeat my point: would we have shown equal disgust if in the thirties the German military had used force to repress the then popular Nazi party? The sad thing is that we would have indeed protested against such violence, and would have given Nazis the chance to commit all the crimes we have witnessed. Repressing the MB may be shocking, but maybe the Egyptian military are just avoiding a greater evil. Unfortunately we will never know whether killing a few hundred MB's now will indeed prevent greater killings in the future. And so we will opt for condemning the military.
Come on bro. You're justifying every military crackdown on any group. I mean, how do we know the Chinese weren't preventing a greater evil by suppressing the Tibetans after all? I guess we'll never know, so people will just continue to blithely assume that the Chinese were in the wrong.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Juggernaut.

IMVHO the difference is that the Muslim Brotherhood/MB is a Malignant Manifestation of a Meme which aims at conquering the World by force if necessary so that the Arabian god Allah can impose his Control Freak Rules on all of humanity while AIUI the Tibetan Buddhists/TB aren't into that so far in this timeline........

Not saying everything in TB is great but TB ;) seems in general so far to be a less aggressive infection than MB ;) :twisted:

Note: Not all Muslims are into the Muslim Brotherhood/MB malignancy or similar. Some try to spirtiualize Jihad into a struggle to improve themselves. Many just want to get on with their lives as did many of the first generation of immigrants to Europe..... One problem is that when hard times come the attraction of preachers/professional infection agents :twisted: who say "You have not because you are not obeying Allah" becomes high.........

Another one is converts such as the Woolwich Murderers or Adam Gadahn who feel they have to prove that they are just as good as those born into the Malignant Meme....
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Muslim Brotherhood

Post by Endovelico »

(...)

In power, Mursi and his backers in the Brotherhood proved unable to collaborate with either Islamist allies or secular adversaries and fatally alienated an army they first tried to co-opt. They have left the country more divided than at any time since it became a republic in 1953.

"They have no understanding whatsoever of the way democratic politics operates," says George Joffe, an expert on North Africa at Cambridge University. "It is difficult to imagine how anyone, given the opportunity of power, could in any circumstances have behaved as stupidly as they did. It is staggering incompetence."

The 2011 upheavals promoted Islamist groups affiliated with or similar to the Brotherhood to the heart of politics across the Arab world, and most observers say events in Egypt are not just a national but a regional setback for the organization.

"The Brotherhood have committed political suicide. It will take them decades to recover ... because a significant number of Egyptians now mistrust them. Al-Ikhwan is a toxic brand now in Egypt and the region," said academic Fawaz Gerges, adding that the damage goes beyond Egypt to its affiliates in Tunisia, Jordan and Gaza, where the ruling Hamas evolved from the Brotherhood.

This has delighted leaders as distinct as King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, traditionally wary of rival flavors of Islam, and Bashar al-Assad, who greeted last month's military takeover in Egypt as vindication of his own bloody fight against Islamists.

Some say Egypt is a setback for democracy itself in the Arab world.

"It delegitimizes the ballot box and legitimizes in the eyes of Arabs that the army is the only institution we can fall back on to protect us against disintegration or Islamists who hijack the state," said Gerges of the London School of Economics.

Tarek Osman, author of "Egypt on the Brink", said Egypt represented a clash over whether these states are to be governed according to traditions of secular nationalism or see their rich, ancient identities squeezed into the Islamist strait-jacket of the Brotherhood.

It is "the Islamic frame of reference versus old, entrenched, rich national identities", he says: "This identity clash is a root cause for the antagonism that wide social segments have for the Islamists."

(...)

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/ ... 8N20130818
User avatar
YMix
Posts: 4631
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:53 am
Location: Department of Congruity - Report any outliers here

Re: Egypt

Post by YMix »

Google translation:

Refueling in Cairo has never been this comfortable: go to the gas pump, open the hood, hose mount, take pitch and wait. For a long time taxi driver Ahmed hasn't found so much pleasure in his work. Today, he could even choose the natural gas dispenser at his favorite gas station not far from Tahrir Square, smiling. And because no one is in the queue and honks, there is even time for a paint cleaning. Ahmed is waving a leather cloth and philosophizes excitedly about the "Second Revolution" and the "people's coup", as he calls the events of those days. He turns up the radio: "Oh you my beloved Egypt!" is blaring from the speakers.

A week ago, Ahmed had to stay at the gas station over night to secure a tiny ration of natural gas. Refuel one day, work the other: Such was the life for many Egyptians. Especially taxi or micro-bus drivers were hit hard by the energy crisis. Natural gas was so scarce that many of them had to give up her job.

Also, gasoline was in short supply. The traffic on the streets of Cairo came to a halt on a regular basis. Not because too many vehicles were on the road, but because on the bridges cars and buses would more frequently get stuck from lack of fuel. On other roads though one had suddenly free ride. In the middle of the metropolis of Cairo there were only half as many vehicles.

To most Egyptians it was clear who is to blame for this mess: President Mohammed Mursi and his Muslim Brotherhood. They were unable anyway to organize anything at all, says Ahmed. The short supply of energy initiated a power crisis. In some areas of Cairo and in many provinces, the electricity supply failed 12 hours straight - every day. And because there was no electricity and not enough transport, the supply of bread and food was also scarce. A hungry people who on top of it all did not agree with the political style of the Brotherhood revolted on June 30 and the days after in a very angry manner.

A possible explanation of the sudden oversupply can be enhanced investment flows, which have primarily been redirected to the stock market of Cairo by rich Egyptian businessmen in recent days. Since Mursi became president, they had boycotted the Egyptian economy. Now they pump billions of Egyptian pounds in securities, including in the energy sector. Since Wednesday, Egypt's benchmark EGX posted the highest profits in its history. The stock market in Cairo had to temporarily halt trading as high increases were experienced. Suddenly no more power outages

Ahmed did not even notice that since removal of the president, the current no longer fails. He shrugs his shoulders and has no real explanation for it. He lovingly continues to polish his "White Princess", as he calls his taxi.

In Egypt, the energy sector is state-owned. Private corporations can exist only with special permits in the electricity and fuel market. The prices are heavily subsidized and the International Monetary Fund for a year made pressure on the government of President Mursi to liberalize the market. Occassionally it even looked as if the government wanted to give in to this desire to get a billion euro loan, which should be half funded by the European Union.

In practice the Muslim-Brotherhood-dominated government and the oil ministry responsible for supply specifically were, however, helpless and did nothing about the issue. It felt like this at least for many Egyptians. The somewhat silly commercials that ran on national television and asked to save electricity and energy, were not seen as a measure to solving the problem. In those a computer-animated Rushdi uncle with a mustache stated how an energy saving light bulb works, how carpools can be arranged and he urged to set up air conditioners to 25 degrees. The taxi driver Ahmed felt ridiculed each and every evening. He possesses neither air conditioning nor does he have the money to afford an expensive energy-saving lamp. The Muslim Brothers are just too stupid for politics he says. Pro-Mursi protesters feel betrayed

At the entrance of the protest camp of the Muslim Brotherhood there is also a petrol station. The attendant here has lost all belief in humanity. Now, suddenly, when the Muslim Brothers are gone, the tank trucks carrying fuel supplies are queueing en masse. The many pro-Mursi protesters who fill here are indeed happy that they now easily get gasoline, however they refer to this development as clear proof of the conspiracy against their brotherhood. The economic elite positioned itself against their president from the very beginning and made common cause with the military, judiciary, police, opposition, the old cadres and the media. A protester with an "I want my president back" poster stuck to his windshield claims that tons of gasoline were dumped in the desert sand, only to get Mursi deposed.

In any case, such a sudden improvement in the supply situation remains remarkable and a little mystery here at the gas station not far from Tahrir Square: "It doesn't matter," Ahmed the taxi driver says, "The main thing is the brothers are gone and my tank is full".
http://www.zeit.de/politik/ausland/2013 ... rgungslage
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Democracy MB style

Post by Endovelico »

Image
User avatar
Azrael
Posts: 1863
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Azrael »

We don't know who sets a lot of the fires. Morsi supporters? Agents provocateurs hoping that the Muslim Brotherhood would get the blame?
cultivate a white rose
User avatar
Parodite
Posts: 5690
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:43 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Parodite »

In memoriam: Egypt

LeiFF0gvqcc
User avatar
monster_gardener
Posts: 5334
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........

Better with Bangles Walking Like a Egyptian with the Sandman

Post by monster_gardener »

Parodite wrote:In memoriam: Egypt

LeiFF0gvqcc
Thank you VERY MUCH for your post, Rhapsody Parodite.

Great Visuals in the Video.... Especiall Michael Jackson as the Sandman ;)

But I like the music for the Bangles' "Walk Like an Egyptian" better so why not combine the best of both.....

trPbqYBFvWk
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
User avatar
Endovelico
Posts: 3038
Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Endovelico »

Azrael wrote:We don't know who sets a lot of the fires. Morsi supporters? Agents provocateurs hoping that the Muslim Brotherhood would get the blame?
Agents provocateurs? Not impossible, but how likely would that be?...
Ammianus
Posts: 306
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:38 pm

Re: Egypt

Post by Ammianus »

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 63272.html
No one knows exactly when the Virgin Mary Church was built, but the fourth and fifth centuries are both possible options. In both cases, it was the time of the Byzantines. Egypt's Coptic Church—to which this church in modern-day Delga belonged—had refused to bow to imperial power and Rome's leadership over the nature of Christ. Constantinople was adamant it would force its will on the Copts. Two lines of popes claimed the Seat of Alexandria. One with imperial blessing sat in the open; the other, with his people's support, often hid, moving from one church to the other. Virgin Mary Church's altar outlasted the Byzantines. Arabs soon invaded in A.D. 641. Dynasties rose and fell, but the ancient building remained strong, a monument to its people's survival.

Virgin Mary Church was built underground, a shelter from the prying eye. At its entrance were two ancient Roman columns and an iron door. Inside were three sanctuaries with four altars. Roman columns were engraved in the walls. As in many Coptic churches, historical artifacts overlapped earlier ones. The most ancient drawing to survive into the 21st century: a depiction, on a stone near the entrance, of two deer and holy bread. Layers and layers of history, a testament not only to the place's ancient roots but also to its persistence. Like other Coptic churches, the ancient baptistery was on the western side, facing the altar in the east. Infants were symbolically transferred through baptism from the left to the right. The old icons were kept inside the church, the ancient manuscripts transferred to the Bishopric in modern times.

Once there were 23 other ancient churches next to it, all connected through secret passages. Only Virgin Mary Church remained. Decline and survival, loss and endurance, the twin faces of the story of the Copts who built it.

Why Virgin Mary Church endured until modern times is a mystery. Some churches in Cairo survived because Coptic popes made them their residence. Being built on a place Jesus and his mother had visited gave others in Egypt a claim to fame and a chance at survival, while in still others the miracles performed by the patron saint were a reason for pilgrims to visit and donate. Virgin Mary Church had none of these. For hundreds of years, its sole claim to miracles: a Roman column that, according to parishioners, produced oil once a year on Good Friday. The church was probably too small and too remote from the center of authority to merit notice. Its flock never abandoned it. Most of the Copts had converted to Islam over the centuries, but in Delga a critical mass remained that kept putting candles in front of the old icons.

Then, in 1829, a boy named Boulos Ghobrial was born in a village nearby. He was baptized in Virgin Mary Church's ancient baptistery and taught to read and write in its small school. He would become St. Abram, the Bishop of Fayoum, a man of deep spirituality, who performed thousands of miracles and resembled his master in his poverty. He died in 1914, and the Holy Synod would declare him a saint in 1963. Many churches would be built under his name, and his residence in Fayoum would become a huge attraction to pilgrims. His birthplace would reap some of the benefits.

Two newer churches were built next to Virgin Mary Church: St. George, about 100 years ago, and the modern St. Abram. Other buildings were soon added. A church that was a shelter from persecution under the Byzantines became a shelter from increasing discrimination and banishment from the public space in modern times. A large meeting room was built, as were a theater and retreat house. In the open space, a soccer field. Church permits became harder to get in Egypt and the small complex served 30,000 Copts.

Miracles are rare in modern times. More common is hardship, and plenty befell the churches of Delga. St. George was attacked a number of times and its domes destroyed. An enthusiastic bishop built two minarets only to have the Egyptian police destroy them. More threatening than a persecuting state was the mob. The ancient churches were attacked several times in the past. On July 28, Molotov cocktails and stones were thrown. The churches survived that day.

But survival was not destined two weeks later. The army's violent crackdown on Mohamed Morsi's supporters in Cairo unleashed a wave of attacks on churches the like of which Copts had not seen in centuries, thus laying waste to examples of a unique byway in the history of architecture, religious structures that are a hybrid of Egyptian, Greco-Roman and Christian Byzantine styles. Dozens of churches were burned and destroyed in the largest attack on Coptic houses of worship since 1321. A complete tally is still to be written. But in its latest report, the Egyptian Initiative for Personal Rights, Egypt's best human-rights organization, documents a total of 47 churches attacked, of which 25 were burned, seven looted and destroyed, five partly damaged, and 10 attacked without sustaining heavy damage.

In this maelstrom, the ancient Virgin Mary Church was not spared. In a day of brutality, the people of Delga distinguished themselves. All three of Delga's Coptic churches were destroyed. So were a Catholic and a Protestant church in the city. In place of Virgin Mary Church, the mob placed a sign: The Martyrs Mosque.

Other areas in the country attempted to compete. The school run by Franciscan nuns in Beni Suef was destroyed. It had been opened in 1889 and provided education to thousands of Egypt's girls. A symbol of a bygone time. Lost with the building were many artifacts, statues and paintings. A museum in Malawi was also destroyed. About 1,200 ancient artifacts have been looted.

A Coptic exodus has been under way for two years now in Egypt. The hopes unleashed by the 2011 revolution soon gave way to the realities of continued and intensified persecution. Decades earlier, a similar fate had befallen the country's once-thriving Jewish community. The departure of the people is echoed in the decay of the buildings. The landscape of the country is changing along with its demography. A few synagogues stand today as the only reminder of the country's Jews. Which churches will remain standing is an open question.
I have now changed my mind. What happened in Algeria cannot happen fast enough in Egypt right now. Spengler, in his gloating and bloviating, at least hit upon a kernel of truth. Throughout the Arab world, somewhat similar to Continental Europe of the 16th, 17th, and early 20th century, there exist perhaps 15-20%, perhaps less, perhaps more, of the population that are hopelessly recalcitrant, reactionary, and antagonistic to any semblance of modernity and compromise. Perhaps you will disagree and use completely different terms, but in the end, it matters not. What is certain is that they are preternaturally disposed to virulent strands of paranoia, antipathy, and violence, that over time has shown itself to be entirely metastatic, regardless of the external factors, which in any case serve only to strengthen and not attenuate them regardless of their nature. If that population segment demands martyrdom so desperately, then let them eat it ten times over. Physical extinction is the only end run for them. They get their wish, we get ours, and human civilization reformats itself accordingly. Past history has proved a sanguineous guide, and this time will not be any different.
Post Reply