JBP: Light versus Darkness

[Parodite]

A little Jordan P Peterson drill but without the level of detail for which I don't have the brains nor the mental energy and patience. Myth and archetype will as a consequence be sacrificed on this alter and left to the winds because I do respect, and genuinely fear, the Gods. As I am also scared to death by grizzly bears. I prefer not stepping into a bear's trap or be devoured by the beast while I'm setting it up to catch it. (Although the latter would be moral justice)

JBP likes to be a dragon slayer, or at least he likes the idea of heroes who dare making the effort and face The Beast.

Personally I think they usually are fools. Statistically most of these dare devils end up dead with no rewards for anybody waiting: all they leave behind are crying loved ones who mourn the martyr's death. Which explains the popularity of martyrdom and the belief of the mourners to join the dead hero soon in that place called the after life where things turn out to be right and okay after total failure. If Heaven has to be over there, then nothing much is left but Hell over here. (Besides, the road to Hell is often paved with good intentions anyways.)

My intuition that JBP is stepping into a trap (of sorts) may be shared by JBP himself: I heard him say that he expects this JBP-hype where he suddenly finds himself riding a 150ft massive wave probably won't end well, "because these things tend to never end well". He clearly feels he is on some important mission and expects to be martyred. He is extremely afraid of "making a mistake" and said it a number of times. He is in a hurry and on overdrive.

I won't claim the Gods don't approve of his [JBPs] message, but they seem worried about his desire to end his own suffering as well as his misplaced belief that suffering is necessary, and sacrifice the way to do it. The Department of Suffering and Sacrifice has some active members but it is a rather small one in the divine ecology. The Department of Play, Humor and Free Inquiry is actually the department with most members, but they suffer a systemic lack of funding. (they go on strike every 4000 years or so over that)

Seek truth and speak truth.

This is the Master Rule of JBP. That is what generates the good. That is what he discovered and abstracted from his 50.000 miles long journey into history, myth, archetype, story telling, psychology, psychotherapy and science. I think it is in fact all you need to know about JBPs gospels and aspire doing. (which also comes in handy when you don't have the time or brains to carry and preserve more than one sentence of useful thought with you for an extended period of time)

If seeking and speaking truth is core, then not seeking and not speaking truth means serious trouble. This becomes apparently true when you look for instance at US politics, media, polarized culture, deep state and so on. People are not rewarded for speaking truth but for lying, or hiding truth which is lying by omission. To speak the truth, which is confession, often means serious punishment and even jail time.

Criminals are told by their lawyers to plea not guilty. Witnesses "take the 5th". Truth that is hurtful to those who have their hands on the throttle is protected from sunshine by stamping it classified. A whole industry of secret intelligence has emerged which of course is the perfect environment and tool for people who want to do things that better occur in the dark. It has made secrecy big business and corruption an inevitable consequence.

Being a whistle blower who wants to save truth babies from abortion is dangerous. Law suits designed to bankrupt you, prison sentences and even your death may be considered the appropriate fix by those whose live off darkness. (Not that I think nature objects to nocturnal creatures that eat other creatures)

If you want a kid to become a liar and successful criminal, a good start is to ask him after one of his first lil' sins: "Did you do that naughty evil thing, did you snatch those cookies from the jar eh?" If the terrified kid then confesses.. but gets slammed in the face and sent to his room doing jail time, you taught him only one lesson: speaking truth does not pay.

When confession is followed by being forgiven instead of punished, with a "[..] and do not sin anymore" as the proposed road ahead, the sun will shine considerably brighter.

@seektruth @speaktruth @confess @forgive @stayinthelight

caveat: @darknesspaystoo

[Simple Minded]

Well said P. While I think JBP serves a very useful purpose in introducing the short attention-spanned to some very useful and timeless material, people is fickle.

His almost instantaneous skyrocket popularity (not including his decades of study, of course) reminds of "the latest thing" phenomena that we humans live so much. Add in the factor that the second of of the "we like to create heroes" game is that "we like to destroy the heroes we have created," and I will not be surprised if JBP fades quickly. But I am grateful for all the intellectual legwork he has done for me.

Politicians, boy bands, celebrities are all good analogies.

"Even the seemingly immortal gods survive only as long as they are needed by mortal man."

Now me understands why, as a yute, the punishment for committing the sin was much less harsh than the punishment for lying about committing the sin.

Imagine the rules of old-fashioned parenting written into legal cannon. Crime x is punishable by y years in jail or a fine of $z. But only if one pleads guilty. If one pleads not guilty, and is found guilty at trial, punishment is tripled.

[Parodite]

Well said P. While I think JBP serves a very useful purpose in introducing the short attention-spanned to some very useful and timeless material, people is fickle.

His almost instantaneous skyrocket popularity (not including his decades of study, of course) reminds of "the latest thing" phenomena that we humans live so much. Add in the factor that the second of of the "we like to create heroes" game is that "we like to destroy the heroes we have created," and I will not be surprised if JBP fades quickly. But I am grateful for all the intellectual legwork he has done for me.

Politicians, boy bands, celebrities are all good analogies.

"Even the seemingly immortal gods survive only as long as they are needed by mortal man."

Now me understands why, as a yute, the punishment for committing the sin was much less harsh than the punishment for lying about committing the sin.

Imagine the rules of old-fashioned parenting written into legal cannon. Crime x is punishable by y years in jail or a fine of $z. But only if one pleads guilty. If one pleads not guilty, and is found guilty at trial, punishment is tripled.

I'm against punishment but not against removing people from an environment where they cause others serious harm or too frequent serious irritation. So if say my kid steals cookies even after some don't-do-thats, I will maybe not allow access to certain rooms/spaces where cookies are stored.. not to punish him/her, but because I also want to eat some cookies, i.e. some of them are mine! And I will defend them to the teeth. That should be the message to be made understood and felt Not guilt and punishment for the sake of sin and personal salvation of the kid. Kid-centric education creates snowflakes and narcissists?

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

Making the Truth game work involves commitment and also the willingness to take on risk as well as responsibility. We've looked at 12 Rules for Life, here are a few more rules that go below the skin:

https://www.amazon.com/Skin-Game-Hidden ... olas+Taleb

[Simple Minded]

I'm against punishment but not against removing people from an environment where they cause others serious harm or too frequent serious irritation. So if say my kid steals cookies even after some don't-do-thats, I will maybe not allow access to certain rooms/spaces where cookies are stored.. not to punish him/her, but because I also want to eat some cookies, i.e. some of them are mine! And I will defend them to the teeth. That should be the message to be made understood and felt Not guilt and punishment for the sake of sin and personal salvation of the kid. Kid-centric education creates snowflakes and narcissists?

I've never known any parents who punished their kids for "the sake of sin and personal salvation of the kid," but I suppose there are some out there. All the parents I've known have disciplined their progeny with the goals of a. ensuring the child's personal safety ("Stay out of the road!" Whack!). b. enabling them to become functional members of society. Since sometimes civilizing the little barbarians takes a lot of focus and effort, I would bet most of the prison population comes from single parent households.

As a child, I remember any lie that was told always coming back to haunt you. For weeks after being caught lying, when trying to make the case of your personal virtue, the response was "Well I caught you lying about stealing the cookies, so why should I believe you now?" Talk about rubbing your nose in your own mess.......

While reading Peterson's book, specifically the chapter "Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them," I recalled a conversation from 30 years ago. One of our friends, noted how often many of her peers criticized her for being strict with her daughter. Her reply was straight out of JBP's playbook. "They don't understand. I want other people to like my daughter. I don't want her to be the child everyone looks at and thinks Wow, what a brat! That kid needs a good spanking!"

While discussing that chapter at lunch with a couple younger parents, I noted their body language was broad casting they thought the advice was "old fashioned" and "out of date."

I thought "You reap what you sow." As I have noted before, a spoiled child is one of life's most perfect instruments of justice. No one suffers more than the parent(s).

Probably why Grandparents smile a lot.....

[Parodite]

I'm against punishment but not against removing people from an environment where they cause others serious harm or too frequent serious irritation. So if say my kid steals cookies even after some don't-do-thats, I will maybe not allow access to certain rooms/spaces where cookies are stored.. not to punish him/her, but because I also want to eat some cookies, i.e. some of them are mine! And I will defend them to the teeth. That should be the message to be made understood and felt Not guilt and punishment for the sake of sin and personal salvation of the kid. Kid-centric education creates snowflakes and narcissists?

I've never known any parents who punished their kids for "the sake of sin and personal salvation of the kid," but I suppose there are some out there.

It is quite possible there are less then I think there still are. I do think there are loads of parents who actually want to discipline kids to protect them from harming themselves and to protect others (so that indeed, those others will be able to like their kids) but who not always, even hardly, succeed in helping their kids to actually understand that... "soon enough". Because kids can indeed be irritating (exhausted single parents, but also dysfunctional couples where tension, irritation or worse dominate..are very easily irritated by anything) and slow learners. Although some smart young kids make you think they could become successful lawyers. As there is that joke:

Parent: "Bobby! you have to eat your plate. You know how many kids exist in the world who have no food on the table and have to live off garbage dumps?"
Bobby: "Really? Name me one."

All the parents I've known have disciplined their progeny with the goals of a. ensuring the child's personal safety ("Stay out of the road!" Whack!). b. enabling them to become functional members of society. Since sometimes civilizing the little barbarians takes a lot of focus and effort, I would bet most of the prison population comes from single parent households.

Single parent households, dysfunctional ones in general. High divorce rates say something here.

As a child, I remember any lie that was told always coming back to haunt you. For weeks after being caught lying, when trying to make the case of your personal virtue, the response was "Well I caught you lying about stealing the cookies, so why should I believe you now?" Talk about rubbing your nose in your own mess.......

The ability of being ashamed when your lies or other bad-ies are exposed.. is not a bad thing. Many parents however, maybe more in religious societies, consider being ashamed a very necessary force for good. Sin, shame, guilt, repentance, punishment etc. I consider it an ok-ish byproduct that however can become toxic when it is given unnatural amounts of importance.

While reading Peterson's book, specifically the chapter "Do not let your children do anything that makes you dislike them," I recalled a conversation from 30 years ago. One of our friends, noted how often many of her peers criticized her for being strict with her daughter. Her reply was straight out of JBP's playbook. "They don't understand. I want other people to like my daughter. I don't want her to be the child everyone looks at and thinks Wow, what a brat! That kid needs a good spanking!"

Post-modernist raising of kids can create toxic universities This phenomenon however seems to be a blow back from the earlier (but still existing!) "Sin, shame, guilt, repentance, punishment" culture.

While discussing that chapter at lunch with a couple younger parents, I noted their body language was broad casting they thought the advice was "old fashioned" and "out of date."

I thought "You reap what you sow." As I have noted before, a spoiled child is one of life's most perfect instruments of justice. No one suffers more than the parent(s).

Probably why Grandparents smile a lot.....

Indeed. Grandparents can be very wise... and mild towards their grandchildren, while more strict and critical to their own children who are way too stressed with those grandchildren they think. Maybe the parents of these grandparents would think the same if still alive. "Come on... did you forget how much work, how much worry and often stress raising kids bring into your life? Give 'm a break...sometimes being too strict and stressed out is part of parenting. Nobody is perfect"

[Simple Minded]

You are wise beyond your years Grasshopper!

Perhaps, the greatest authority on parenting to ever live..... much better than Dr. Spock!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5jKKN5v6yA

5jKKN5v6yA

[Typhoon]

Protestors at the talk by JBP at Queen's University, Kingston, Canada.

Daily Wire| "Lock em in and burn it down!"

Not the kind of light JBP has in mind.

[Parodite]

Jordan Peterson is trying to make sense of the world — including his own strange journey

[...]

The next second, he is exploring consciousness, vectors and theoretical physics, while melting my brain: “Here’s a weird thing. If you go out at night and you look up at a star and a photon hits your eye, that photon would not have left that star 20 million years ago if your eye wasn’t there now to see it.”

[...]

Good article, just had een OMG moment reading the quoted remark of JBP; apparently it is possible that quantum madness is even able to penetrate and infect minds of caliber JBP. Following the insane notion in some quantum madhouse circles that conscious observation by a human being is what "collapses the wave function" during a quantum measurement in a lab.

We have Sam Harris rambling unhinged about free will and now this! The Conscious Creating Observer again... collapsing divine dreams into physical reality. Just open your eyes and see the star you created 20 million years ago!

[Parodite]

JBP is very angry at Pankaj Mishra because of his review of 12 Rules For Life in the NYT, Jordan Peterson & Fascist Mysticism and tweets:

You arrogant, racist son of a bitch Pankaj Mishra: How dare you accuse me of "harmlessly romancing the noble savage." That's how you refer to my friend Charles Joseph (http://charlesjoseph.ca/ ), who I've worked with for 15 years?

Go Jordan go! A neo-marxist post-modernist socialist cobra from India spitting you in the face. Blink!

[Simple Minded]

Could someone who is against another person "harmlessly romancing the noble savage" properly be labeled as a "homophobe" in today ultra-sensitive, hyper-aware, modern post-modern society?

Or maybe just a prude?

bizarre essay. Every where I looks, all I sees is Ink blots.

I miss the 1960's. Now that the hippies have PhD's, they feel insecure it they're not using big words. It's a lot harder for me to relate to them (you listening Napster?).

Tune in. Turn on. Drop out.

[Simple Minded]

on page 252 of LBP's new book, 12 Rules for Life, he discusses humor.

JBP agrees with my long standing belief/observation, that I never bothered to articulate.

Rough humor, is almost always a sign of respect directed at one's acquaintances. At times, it may be used as an insult, but that seems to be the exception.

Cultural differences of course are a yuge factor. I recall many occasions with a former employer of visiting oil fields with a co-worker who was raised in an polite, urban environment, by cultured parents. The rough necks you met would almost instantly test you by directing a comment at you that could easily be interpreted as disrespectful, threatening, hostile, or condescending. If you replied with a comment in kind, you had their instant respect and they were ready and willing to bust their butts to help you in any way possible. They immediately identified you as "one of them."

If you took the high road of good manners, you were going to have a tough haul the whole time you were working with them.

Another good example of cultural interpretations being very much dependent of who, where, and when. the Internet seems better at creating misinterpretations rather than "we."

[Nonc Hilaire]

Rough humor and insults are a male bonding thing in the US. Only between buds and rarely with women.

Respect does not seem accurate.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

There's also a ritualised insult-game practiced by street poets and MC's and also (usually gay) floridly feminine men, called the diss:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCThNgv ... 9YQi5D-8Ng

https://www.buzzfeed.com/kayesss/20-of- ... .iu4Gdg92g

vNdgYBCnW-8

[Simple Minded]

yep. tis also a lightning fast assessment of the other.

"can I speak to you on my level, or do I need to enter your bubble and treat you with kid gloves?"

[Parodite]

JBP stepped into the lions den of atheism talking to Matt Dillahunty, a confident alpha male atheist:

An evening with Matt Dillahunty

JBP lost this battle IMO. What went wrong, or "wrong"? He tried to win on his own home turf instead of that of MD. You don't win throwing around concepts that are all irrelevant and outside the atheist's territory. The weakest moment of JBP was when he brought up hallucinogen drugs to make a case for the meta-physical.

He justifiably asked MD at one point what he meant with "meta-physical" because of course definitions matter, but that is like opening your defense for your enemy to strike first. He should have given his own definition and use it to make his case. MD basically just argues against the anthropomorphic God of his upbringing and religious dogmatic brainwashing.

[Parodite]

JBP drowns poor Ben Shapiro:

WT0mbNvaT6Y

[Parodite]

The problem of understanding things in terms of other things (among others)

Causality and determinism in classical physics:
(b) as an effect of (a) but never exactly.

Probability and indeterminism in quantum physics:
(b) as an effect of probability (c) but only over over a series of measurements.

Albert Einstein: "God doesn't play dice."
Niels Bohr: "Don't tell God what to do."

In short, we don't know. Especially the unknown unknowns. The black-box rules; there might not even be a black-box and no Schrodinger's Cat either!

People who can't resist the temptation of assuming the black-box to exist and put their heads inside because they want to know what's there start to see many worlds, indefinite amounts of universes that branch out from each and every possible event that did not happen here... but surely there!

Crazy stuff, hallucinating in the dark.

Conceptualization and definition in the Babylonian chaos of philosophy

Extracting, abstracting hierarchies as per JBP's "Logos creating order out of chaos" with God at the top representing ultimate individual consciousness. All that embedded in biological evolution over millions of years. Problem of course is: nobody knows, consciousness still a hard problem, all a pile of assertions and wordplay.

JBP's torrents of thought are primarily revealing how JBP thinks. Which is true for all of us. Connecting dots in the sky usually doesn't say much per se about the sky, but all the more about how our brains think.

Read any philosophical work and you will find that most of it is mere words "explaining" other words. Meaning is created by abstracting differences from differences reducing complexity into useful concepts and categories. If the neurological machinery of categorization and simplification is damaged, you have a problem like schizophrenia, autism or psychosis.

I don't see where "the logos" (consciousness) is a proven organizer of chaos into order. It is the complex structure and function of the brain itself that does "the organizing" - or rather, it is that order.

[Parodite]

PG decided to have a chat with Jordan B Petersen and Matt Dillahunti after their conversation about God.

PG: "Guys, what was this all about? You seem to be totally talking past each other, addressing different things."

MD: "Well, it just seems JBP can't accept that I don't believe you exist. To make it even worse he claims that I am a closet Christian, a religious believer of sorts no matter how hard I deny this to be the case. That is just obnoxious, disrespectful and, in my opinion, it doesn't help him further his own arguments. He is behaving very childish. He even claimed that if I were a real atheist, I would start killing people."

PG: "Jordan, is that true? That seems rude."

JBP: "Most definitely! I understand Matt rebels against that picture of you as an all powerful and all knowing patriarch floating on a cloud while pulling all the strings, but that is not my picture of you at all! He just doesn't want to hear about it. Because I suspect it would threaten his nice, little and way too simplistic frame."

PG: "I see. But do you think I care how either of you see me? I am used to that, people do it for ages. Assigning all kinds of attributes to me. Dressing me up like an Emperor or Christmas tree. Or decide I'm something spiritual, a force, a presence. I'm non-stop being sculpted, changed, destroyed, re-invented. You could fill an entire shopping mall with all my versions. Some people even think they themselves are God."

JBP: "Exactly, but that is my point, you matter! That story is our story! Your fingerprint is the underlying archetype. That is an inter-subjective reality and truth dismissed by the rational types like Sam H. and Matt!"

MD: "I still don't know what is worse. Keeping God simple, like a loving father-type who works abroad sending his children signs of life by snail mail or The Cloud, or turning him into a very complicated and abstract thing that may sound plausible, but that can never mean much to flesh and blood people. It will never feed the hearts and minds of children, only perhaps adult brains like those of JBP, but I even doubt that. I actually feel sorry for my brother Jordan. He ended up on a track of smoke and mirrors. Ashes for food. Trying to catch the wind. The empty grips of despair."

PG: "You both have a point of course. Neither of you can really know me because either I don't exist or I am more like the Wind. Impossible to catch and put in a box. Try label me and I turn into something else. You think you saw me in the corner of your eyes? Turn your head and look.. and nothing is there. I'm sorry guys."

JBP: "I accepted that is exactly how you are Dad. Your absence makes your presence all the more felt!"

PG: "Relax Jordan. Don't confuse an empty stomach with proving that food exists."

MD: "Ha! I like that Dad. You are the food that isn't there for empty stomachs. Who exiled you from reality, did Mom divorce you over it? Fathers who walk out of their family, it is everywhere these days. At least Jordan wants to do a better job than you ever did. Did you read his 12 Rules for Life? You should read it and then look at yourself again. You are a failed father and a liar. You want Jordan to fix things that you always neglected because you were never home! And you never saved anybody. Your biggest lie is still the claim that you exist. Beware that Jordan is promoting that lie of yours. But he can't help himself, apparently."

JBP: "You know Matt, if you really were an atheist of the good type, you would't care about being an atheist. Not even use that word. You'd be totally indifferent to it. And to God. You would ask me how to write "God" or "atheist". And I would do that for you. But you would shrug your shoulders with equal indifference and just move on. Like an unbothered kid at the beach throwing pebbles. But the fact is you are not like that kid. If only you were! I could then respect and believe you. Instead you are fighting something you don't believe in. Why fight to begin with? You behave like you have a post-traumatic stress reaction to the believer you once were. As if you try to exorcise demons you don't believe to exist who nevertheless haunt you, don't they?! Rationally, intellectually you may believe you are an atheist but a big part of you is still a believer. The biggest and most important part I'd say."

PG: "Guys, enough now. This always leads to religious wars in the end. It is exactly the same pattern with the same outcome. It is also the moment for me to disappear again. Was I here? You will never know. Good bye."

MD and JBP then shook hands and promised to continue the conversation soon. They agreed to invite Mother Nature for that occasion.

[Parodite]

A peak into the regressed left's desperate efforts to frame JBP and his growing popularity as an attempt to save white male privilege, patriarchy and the existing economic class structure:

SbITzwJdOMw

Cognitive dissonance at work. It will get harder and harder for them to maintain their beliefs when this new and growing classical-liberal + libertarian-conservative centrist movement becomes more and more diverse with supporters among men, women, people of any color, of any economical class and with intelligent, informed and skilled high IQ intellectuals speaking out in public.

I think there will be a tipping point where corporations and corporate media also choose to sponsor this new growing movement when there is simply more money to make there. You can still make a buck with identity politics, crying about Obama, Downhill Clinton and whining about Trump the Terrible but it won't be forever.

[Nonc Hilaire]

I think JBP has probably peaked as an internet sensation.

[Parodite]

I think JBP has probably peaked as an internet sensation.

Twin Peeks?

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

I think JBP has probably peaked as an internet sensation.

Bubbling up from the same pond @ U of T????......'>........

2PGglfl5j_I

[Parodite]

Jordan Peterson is trying to make sense of the world — including his own strange journey

[...]

The next second, he is exploring consciousness, vectors and theoretical physics, while melting my brain: “Here’s a weird thing. If you go out at night and you look up at a star and a photon hits your eye, that photon would not have left that star 20 million years ago if your eye wasn’t there now to see it.”

[...]

Good article, just had een OMG moment reading the quoted remark of JBP; apparently it is possible that quantum madness is even able to penetrate and infect minds of caliber JBP. Following the insane notion in some quantum madhouse circles that conscious observation by a human being is what "collapses the wave function" during a quantum measurement in a lab.

We have Sam Harris rambling unhinged about free will and now this! The Conscious Creating Observer again... collapsing divine dreams into physical reality. Just open your eyes and see the star you created 20 million years ago!

Not only JBP is infected the with quantum weirdness meme, also Scott Adams got the quantum sneeze. (as of 15:30 in the video)

I'm astonished how many well brained people believe that a human conscious observer collapses the wave function during a quantum mechanical measurement.

They seem not to be aware that something like the double slit experiment can be automated and performed by machines. You set a timer and let the automated double slit experiment start next week wednesday, go on a holiday for a month and when you come back read out the recorded results from a computerscreen.

And to be sure have the experiment filmed by video cameras just to rule out fairies rigging the experiment with their magic quantum consciousness.

[Mr. Perfect]

Jordan Peterson, like many conservatives, has not yet learned that his opposition is not interested in intellectual exchange of ideas, they are trying to kill him in his sleep.

If Peterson learns this and begins to respond in kind maybe we will see the evolution of our species.

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