Sam Harris versus Free Will

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Parodite
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Sam Harris versus Free Will

Post by Parodite »

I started reading SHs book Free Will. There is so much wrong with it that I hardly know where to begin.

Will grant him however one victory: he does succeed totally and without any doubt proving that Free Will is not God Almighty! :)

His definition of FW is so off the charts and ludicrous that it is very easy to conclude that FW is illusory and can be sent do the dump. If my definition of free will were the belief that I have the ability to flap my arms and fly like a bird, then only half a page would suffice to make the case that this FW is an illusion. Flapping my arms won't make me fly. However I can do things with my arms most certainly, but it ain't flying. That's all. Still he needs hundred pages to prove something that is similarly obvious from the get go. Indeed: Free Will is not God Almighty. Not even a little god awmighty in my head.

He further goes off the slippery slope in the way he uses determinism in his argument. He adds indeterminism and probability of quantum mechanics (that some argue create the space for will to free itself from the hammer from determinism) and argues coherently how the latter won't help either. The problem however is that he uses the determinism of classical (Newtonian) physics and the indeterminism + probability as used in quantum mechanics in a very off-hand amateurish way, pretending/suggesting that these concepts are now engraved in gold and fully understood by all and they are all we need.

Real scientists are much more humble and acknowledge that classical physics turned out to be an approximation within a limited domain of validity when Einstein discovered relativity, followed by quantum mechanics raising questions like why things get so weird at the quantum level where reality appears to present itself as nearly, entirely, probabilistic in nature. And how these different domains can be stitched up into a new theory that is still coherent and whole.

To use concepts like determinism in a way that suggests we know exactly what determinism means and precisely what it represents, and even worse imply that determinism "simply is a fact" is a form of cheating. I can't imagine that somebody like SH is not aware of the provisional, incomplete and sometimes even seriously problematic of these concepts, so it could be that his thinking is controlled by more unconscious or other events outside the realms of his conscious experience, let alone free will. Given his ridiculous demands of free will to be like God Almighty, maybe not the God of the entire universe but then at least the One that is the self-conscious Sam Harris that resides in his own brain... it appears there is a good candidate.

The fun thing about determinism is that it is very easy to show why it is only true in a limited domain. Steven Molineux in his free will series used the example of a rock that is pushed off a hill. Once it starts to roll and tumble down there is nothing that can stop it until another object stops it or comes to rest in the valley. A nice example of determinism? Yes. But of you take a closer look of the event, you would see that while the rock falls down it changes (while it was in a resting position of course it also changes, but less dramatically and harder to notice). It gets scratched, some pieces might chip off due to the forces on impact it encounters etc. In others words, the rock that rolls down is all the time changing into something else until so much has changed that won't perceive of it as rock anymore. And while it rests there in the valley and you wait long enough, after some millions of years the rock has totally changed, probably disintegrated entirely into other things dispersed into anywhere. Not to mention, if during the entire event of a rock rolling down a hill you would be able to monitor events at the molecular level and zoom in ever deeper into the quantum domain, you'd see a very fast rate of change where photons are absorbed and emitted and all kinds of other things happen at high speed.

So what seems to be a fair enough conclusion: the rock is changing at all levels all the time and no exact state of the rock can be predicted for even an infinitesimal next moment. Momentum and position of a particle can not be both measured exactly hence uncertainty. Also (it seems to me) the probability distribution of a macro quantum system (like rock rolls of a slope) is itself changing in fundamentally unpredictable ways.

Some say that if we could just monitor/measure-without-interfering all the variables at play where we would be as "accurate" as the universe itself we (you'd need a simulation that contains all information operating in the universe) would be able to predict with 100 accuracy. As a thought-experiment meant to save determinism from indeterminism but it is doing the opposite it seems to me: if to be 100% accurate in your predictions on all levels you would need a full replica of the universe, it actually proves that determinism is not fundamental. Determinism is only "true" when enough information is removed from the equations (is hidden from view) setting the goal posts far enough from each other so that determinism scores a goal.

So you have a rock that will definitely roll of the slope, it won't suddenly fly like a bird . But there is "a freedom that allows it to change" on its way down. What and where it will be the next moment can not be predicted exactly. The "if we only knew all the variables" is red herring.

What we are left with is that every moment/state/event is different from previous ones on all scales and that how it will be different from previous ones cannot be predicted exactly. I don't think this goes against 101 quantum mechanics since quantum mechanics does not operate with precise
singular causes and inescapable effects but rather with probability distributions; that at least leaves room for fundamental uncertainty and approximation that is lacking in determinism.

A more sensible approach is to consider particle-wave systems as having degrees of freedom. In a multi-particle configuration like a rock, the degrees of freedom that a rock has that tumbles down from a slope, means that it cannot fly like a bird, change into a melon on its way down, nor can it decide to stop rolling and climb back up hill. But due to uncertainty, and the freedom that exists for the creation of events that are unique and never to be repeated exactly, I will argue that the rock and its direct environment are making millions of "little free choices" in as far as, and to the extent that the aggregate probability distribution (the wave function of the macro system) allow for them. But what is "allowed" by probability distributions is itself changing all the time and ultimately as unpredictable as any state of affairs where change is the only constant.

Now where SH slides down the slippery slope without the possibility of recovery, is where he starts to talk about consciousness as "a witness".

- to be continued
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

Post by Mr. Perfect »

I agree with you. His mental gymnastics on the concept are truly Olympian.

Very quickly, free will is what they take away from you in North Korea.
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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Mr. Perfect wrote:I agree with you. His mental gymnastics on the concept are truly Olympian.

Very quickly, free will is what they take away from you in North Korea.
Indeed, taking away your freedom and trying destroy your will.

*

Just some more sketchy ramble:

1. The problem of definition. "Conscious Free Will" is not having powahs and controls like God Alimighty indeed; Big Duh

2. Determinism holds only in a limited domain of validity.

What's that mean?

- Level of detail is never enough
- [momentum+position] uncertainty (heisenberg)
- At the quantum level: probability seems to take over (and also progresses upwards into the world of classical objects/multi-particle processes)
- Stitching together classical (Newtonian) physics, relativity, qm, qft, gravity and more, is not easy.

Enough holes in the cheese to keep us humble.

One could argue that despite default imprecision and uncertainty, events are still causally related - albeit mostly non-linear, chaotic and unpredictable- and that nothing of it all bodes well for free will. Certainly for the type of free will that SH opposes. Which is the core problem in SHs book; defintition.

God Almighty, as well as smaller Free Willy in our brains, would be a leaf in the wind. By some cruel misfortune aware of the brute facts that happen to him with a consciousness that hovers around like a paralyzed, muzzled witness. As if having an out of body experience. Only able to watch what happens down below. Those down below don't even see you, the hovering muzzled witness. Scary! As per "I.. see... dead people" of the movie The sixth Sense.

Near death experience. Maybe the conscious rabbit is escaping the magic hat, or maybe the hat just throws out the rabbit now that it finally has a chance. The rabbit after all is just a nuisance, it doesn't do anything. A typical free loader and on top of that a stalker who obscenely tracks all your whereabouts.

When the body purges the mind it is almost like you hear nature's sigh of relief. The observed rids itself from the observer. Or maybe, they always where just one and the same? Duality being the actual illusion, under a babylonian spell of language hypnosis.

Consciousness does not "emerge" from the brain, nor does it arise in it. Neither is it an "epiphenomenal" rabbit out of a magic hat, nor ""an effect" of brain process.

Consciousness is brainprocess.

"What is it like to be a bat?" philosopher and Professor Thomas Nagel once famously asked. One of those typical questions phlosophers invent for which there is no answer. Because discussing these things with bats is pointless. They have WTF no idea what you are talking about. And no time!

A better question is: what is it like to be a human body-brain process?

But that question is addressed to a crowd of people. If the group consists of 100 people, you will 100 answers, most likely very similar. In the age of JBP where the holy individual is in danger again when hords, crowds could become wolf packs again, the only real question to ask to another human being is:

What is it like to be you?

But we "ask" each other this question already in daily life. Not as intellectuals but simply by interacting with others, communicate, body language etc. We are built to observe each other, interprete and understand what the other is doing, saying, signaling, feeling, thinking. This goes at the speed of light and hardly needs any conscious brain process.

- sketching to be continued
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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More sketches.

Why 100% full proof determinism will not work. According to Mother Nature.

Nature, it seems to me, overwhelmingly shows us that rock solid all pervasive determinism does not exist. We can predict outcomes but only within limits.
The "if we only knew all the variables and could measure all detail on every level" as an attempt to save determinism from its inevitable haircut, is just deafness and/or wilffull ignorance to what Mama Nature is telling us. (Mama Nature or Papa God; I think they are a couple just like Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden)

Something that happens will have consequences, but in the chain of events what is cause and what is effect becomes fuzzy. Not only because a cause also was an effect of a previous cause which would beg the question if something can be both a cause and an effect at the same time, and if not when does the effect become a cause? And what is it that first is an effect and then a cause? Somebody underwent a sex change or some?

But that is a language game and we need to see through these types of wordsalads. As with adding playful definitions of Free Will to the mix, stirring the soup while intellectual heat boils it all to sweet surrender. Bon apetit to philosophy and pseudo-scientific machinations! Or rather, poetry. But don't claim it is anything else.

Mama Nature kind of hinted to me once when I was worried about having or not having free will (and said not to worry too much about it in a reassuring way) that we, the children of the divine, are hardwired body-brains that will inevitably and always see determinism and indeterminism, freedom and unfreedom, willingness and unwillingness, the known and unknown, cause and effect, reason and unreason and so on.. in the world out there and in ourselves. Papa God was knodding behind his news paper and just added: "It's about contrast son... differences that make a difference. That is meaning!" He always has been a lazy mystic of sorts. "Proof" or "truth" were redundant concepts to him. "I just need to know how to do something, the rest is a waste of time!" Mama Nature would react with a smile and joke usually, especially about the limitations of the male brain of course.

According to Her, a good and honest Man should just work hard without asking too many questions. If someone answers a question for him, such a man will remember it and is probably able to reproduce it, but without understanding much of the why or how. "Never ask a color-blind to explain the difference between red and green! It is useless!" she liked to say when they had another quarrel. She loved my Dad though, even as a crippled pet.

When I once insisted again on free will not being possible, Mama Nature got annoyed. "So you think because we don't understand the whole story we must believe in free will as an antidote to ignorance? And if we'd know the whole story... the story would be over for free will, right?"

Of course that is what I was convinced of so I said: "Exactly!".

Then she replied with something fuzzy staccato "And this is where you are so wrong, just like your father. There is no quote-unquote "whole story", just an open-ended one and it is Creation! Pure determinism would be like birth control. Nothing would even happen because everything that was determined to happen after the first event would already have happened by now and long ago! Determinism is a still born baby that will never learn to know the grave where death at least does create something."

- open ended
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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A good nutshell in support of SHs views on free will, no need to read the book:

j4Oyi1T-HmU

A "yes, however..." is due.

Conscious brain process, during which still most people report to have/use a faculty usually described as free will, is provable part of neurological causal-loops, i.e. it does things.

It is both effect and cause, just as any other. It definitely is not some disconnected witness hovering outside the causal chains in some epiphenomenal ghost space, even though it can appear and feel like one. (the question why we can feel like a ghost in a machine even though we are not is worthy of another sketch. All you have to do is let mother nature explain it to you; her answer is surprisingly simple and convincing melting away, among other things, the infamous "hard problem" of consciousness as framed by Dave Chalmers)

That consciousness does things is easy to test. Compare what you are doing when you are awake during the day and what you do while asleep. Without conscious brain activity you'd soon be dead. This particular case can be made very long with proof and examples, but maybe its better to just leave people alone who insist believing in consciousness/conscious brain process as an a-causal witness of sorts that doesn't do anything other then witnessing. For some beliefs there is no cure, and minds are closed.

Analogies always break down at some point, but a useful one I find cybernetics. Compare conscious brain process with the cockpit of an airliner. Information about the internal state of the airliner and its environment is collected via sensors (senses), processed and on-display to the pilot who then makes decisions, do things, not do things moving the airliner safely through its trajectory on its way to a destination. A trajectory and destination that are always the same will not require much conscious decision making, except when an emergency arises of course. Alertness is therefore always required, but dozing away a bit won't hurt, you just switch on the autopilot. Changes in trajectory and/or destination require decision making especially when those changes come unannounced. A chaotic flight, with rapid changes where the airliner enters a state of unpredictability requires a heightened level of alertness and decision making. Especially when real danger enters the equation, a red alert turns the cockpit into a hyper conscious brain process so to speak. (literally for the pilot and co-pilot of course).

To turn this into a general statement: the more unpredictable situations and outcomes are and the more your life depends on making the right decision(s), the higher the level of conscious brain activity will be to deal the situation. This on contrast with decisions you can make where you already know the drill... and can safely rely on past experience where your more unconscious brain processes can do most of the work load, included making the decisions.

This of course, is quite relevant to the experiments mentioned in the video done by Libet where subconscious brain processes "already make the decision for you a few milliseconds before you experience yourself making "a conscious and free choice". But pressing a left or right button is something so easily learned and the options available the absolute minimum (2) means that most likely you could even do this experiment half asleep. Even much more complex behaviors like driving home after work can be done half asleep when you do it for the 2300th time, the same route, the same traffic lights, the same moves. Most of the choices you make driving home are on semi-automat and done "before you are aware of making a choice"... if at all. You kind of keep looking for unanticipated differences, you have to stay awake of course... but only when something different enough (too dissimilar from the regular) occurs your awareness goes to a higher level, especially when potential danger arises everything goes to a higher gear.

So you can test free will in a "zombie setup" like Libet's experiment where it is to be expected that very little conscious choice is necessary in fact, but it compels the question what happens when the brain is in a high alert. When the alert is maximum, say a predator attacks you, there is little time to think and you act more on reflex with a very fast thinking-action loop where the thinking and the action in your experience converge. Also happens when you are totally immersed into something with full focus during a competitive sports game where your "life" depends on it, i.e. only victory can "save" you. In a game where unpredictability rules, new situations have to be anticipated every second, how would decision making look like neurologically? I would think that the picture look considerably different from Libet's zombie-experiment. Probably also different from the neurology of two people talking about options for a holiday..will they go to Italy, or maybe France? What would be fun?

With many different situations that exist in reality where we make choices of all kinds and types, I find solely relying on the outcomes of Libet zombie-type experiments followed by making general statements on how we make choices and concluding "that science proved that free will is an illusion" rather poor, non-specific in an alarming way. Adding the problem of the definition of free will where the SH version is of course doomed from the get-go since he wants free will to be god-like where you can't produce any proof or disproof as with the meta-physical God himself. The question of free will is settled science, just a climate science on MMGW., right? On top of it all the amateurish way that "determinism" is used in the equations as discussed.

- to be continued, open ended
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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I'm exploring the idea that religions in general are responsible for human self awareness and ability to think in space and time. By putting Big Daddy in the sky and taking Him out of your head; you become deliberately self conscious on a meta scale, allowing you to visualise the past, the future, your place in family and tribe, and to act ethically. Free will is a sort of proto-economics where you bargain with your nacissistic animal self against the external world. The one we call 'reality', one of the few things that separate us from the animals along with language and in a very profound sense, because of religion we actually have something worth talking about....'>.......
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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Free will as a negotiating tool for future actions kinda? Consciousness as a monitoring function that tracks differences and hence creates values used during the negotiations with the outlier others over there. Will digest. Just coming out of a conversation in my own head that didn't go as planned ;p but will dump here.
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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Me: "Mama Nature, I have two, or maybe three questions!"

Mama Nature: "I hope it's not about free will again. But did you ask Papa God already? I'd say always try him first."

Me: "No not about free will, although maybe it's related. Just not sure yet. And no.. didn't ask Papa God. His answers have become more and more nonsensical lately. And predictable too!"

Mama Nature: "I know... and have decided to call him Newton from now on. Men like things, such as particles. Women see better how things relate to one another. How the dots connect. We talk waves and fields. The spaces between thoughts. Feelings and stuff. We dream possibilities and give new birth to them. But go ahead, what's on your mind? "

Me: "Well, what I would like to understand is why we haven't solved the hard problem yet. Why does conscious experience arise from some bio-chemistry in the brain? There seems to be no reason that it should."

Mother Nature: "Of course, it is a very good and very obvious question. What else?"

Me: "Well, nature doesn't seem to have any hard problem at all with conscious experience. Or sentience in general. So how can it be that something is such a hard problem for humans to understand but a total piece of easy daily cake for nature itself? The contrast couldn't be any bigger! It feels like nature is playing some sort of trick on us."

Mother Nature: "I'm glad you ask me these questions, since I'm your mother of course you are asking the right person. But really, I'm not doing tricks on you, how could I? That would be pointless and even cruel!"

Me: "Well, that's fine then, I suppose.. So what about it? You should not let your kids in the dark about this."

Mother Nature: "Sure. But first some things that may appear unrelated, that aren't really. Did you notice how Papa God men keep banging their heads against the wailing wall?"

Me: "What about it. Can't see the connection."

Mother Nature: "That wall represents the classical limit, where the buck stops, quite literally."

Me: "So?"

Mother Nature: "That wall is quite a hard problem, don't you agree? You can bang your head as much as you want, it won't give in. Sometimes when something is persistently very hard it only means it is impossible what you are trying to do. That's all."

Me: "Sounds simple enough. But it begs the question, why do we keep banging at the wall?"

Mother Nature: "That's a question for Newton! He keeps doing it. I actually have no idea why. As if forever he will not learn. Maybe it is his nature, as a particle lover. It is all about things and the boxes to put them in. And fixed goals. I am not like that. I'm fields, waves, possibilities. I'm always there at every slit in any double or more slits experiments. I'm what attracts, guides and unfortunately also destroys particles. As well as what gives birth to them. Behind every succesful man there is a woman, but also behind the dead ones."

Me: "You gave birth to Papa God?? Chucklez.. You scare me."

Mama Nature: "I know.. it is hard to accept."

Me: "So that's all? The hard problem is hard for those unable to learn, to turn around and just walk away or what?"

Mother Nature: "This is not about inability, it is about the inevitable. The hard problem is a necessity. A destiny. For particles. They move towards the wall undisturbed, will go through slits or any opening available but always end up at a wall, where skull meets rock and their journey ends. They know deep down they are unstable, destined to be swallowed by the wale and transformed into fields and waves again. To avoid death they will always feel attracted to some ultimate particle rock, undestructible and forever there."

Me: "That sounds too postmodernist to me. Don't you have a more down to earth explanation?"

Mother Nature: "Of course I have. You like empirical data?"

Me: "I'm listening."

- to be continued i spoze
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:I'm exploring the idea that religions in general are responsible for human self awareness and ability to think in space and time. By putting Big Daddy in the sky and taking Him out of your head; you become deliberately self conscious on a meta scale, allowing you to visualise the past, the future, your place in family and tribe, and to act ethically. Free will is a sort of proto-economics where you bargain with your nacissistic animal self against the external world. The one we call 'reality', one of the few things that separate us from the animals along with language and in a very profound sense, because of religion we actually have something worth talking about....'>.......
Interesting idea. I have always promoted the use of God as a mental staging area for outlier data which interferes with practical theory, but you are thinking way ahead of me.
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

Post by noddy »

if free will and real choice dont exist then we all do waste alot of time having sleeplessness nights, agonizing over decisions.
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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noddy wrote:if free will and real choice dont exist then we all do waste alot of time having sleeplessness nights, agonizing over decisions.
:D Indeed. Not sure how this rather widely held view that fw is an illusion by spozedly rational and scientifically trained people will gain traction while it sneaks in through the backdoor. Kind of a bombshell under the project of individual responsibility, freedom of choice, freedom of speech... Can't see how Sam Harris would subscribe to free speech when all thought en speech is outside any personal control. To be a mere witness of his own thoughts, speech and decisions must feel kinda schizophrenic.
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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From discussing definition, to causality, determinism and indeterminism as approximations, to testing free will in the lab (Libet), to conscious free will, to choices made unconsciously, to the witness that appears to not do anything but witness.

What, how, why it feels like to be a ghost in a machine

The sensation of consciousness as a witness, or as a "container" in which contents seem to reside/occur such as a chair you see, but also thoughts and feelings, choices layed out before you as possible scenarios, visions of the future that can be enacted or rejected by choice. Anything that occurs in our field of awareness, what we can be conscious of. With a focus on detail and a blurring out of content towards periphery.

The conscious agent that identifies itself as witness/container, as the observer of things observed. The mapping of the body, the privacy of the in-here into an environent, the out-there. How both the in-here of the body and the out-there of the environment seem to be contained in still one container. The witness being aware of all content as represented during conscious experience. Like "a field of consciousness" that harbours all the in-here and the out-there during experience.

These experienced mind-boggling dualities stem, it seems to me, from the body-environment relationship which is biological and functional rather than mystical.

Mind-body, ghost-in-machine are different words used for the observer-observed duality, which is a representation of the biological-functional relationship between body and environment. A representation projected onto a "spatio-temporal canvas" where both the in-here and the out-there belong to the same painting so to speak.


The Big Caveat and Elefant in the Room

The caveat here is, as always, that "the brain that gives rise to conscious experience" is not the brain that is observed because that brain is a representation of the thing that gives rise to it.

It means that if you start with the representation of the brain i.e. as we know it scientically (from the 3rd person viewpoint) and then ask how this known brain produces conscious experience... what you are doing is like asking how a picture/representation is able to produce that very same picture. Or looking at a picture of your mother and wonder how it is possible that this picture can produce your mother.

These are just analogies, but they accurately explain why there is a hard problem of explaining consciousness when you start with the brain as-observed because that brain is just a representation of the machinery that is doing the actual representing. Like a photo camera that makes a photo of itself and looks at it wondering how that camera on that picture is able to make pictures. That's not just very hard, it is impossible. You try to walk in forward direction but lo and behold, all the time you walk backwards doing the moon walk.

In the causal chain it would be like asking how smoke is able to produce fire. You are trying to explain consciousness backwards, that's all.

How is this relevant to the discussion of free will, epiphenomenal ghostly conscious witnesses et-al? Very it seems to me, because SH and many others are explaining and talking back-wards, not aware of The Big Caveat and ignoring the warning that science itself compels us to take seriously: don't try explain fire as a consequence of smoke. You have to turn around 180 degrees and walk in the opposite direction to find clues. Perhaps even walk multiple tracks back and forth and sideways. That may appear impossible to do, even if it is the right thing to do. But Mama Nature always has answers if you ask her the right questions.

- to be continued
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

Post by Simple Minded »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:
Miss_Faucie_Fishtits wrote:I'm exploring the idea that religions in general are responsible for human self awareness and ability to think in space and time. By putting Big Daddy in the sky and taking Him out of your head; you become deliberately self conscious on a meta scale, allowing you to visualise the past, the future, your place in family and tribe, and to act ethically. Free will is a sort of proto-economics where you bargain with your nacissistic animal self against the external world. The one we call 'reality', one of the few things that separate us from the animals along with language and in a very profound sense, because of religion we actually have something worth talking about....'>.......
Interesting idea. I have always promoted the use of God as a mental staging area for outlier data which interferes with practical theory, but you are thinking way ahead of me.
When I read the first two sentences posted above by MFF, I instantly thought "Wow! That is an excellent summary of a rather large chunk of Jordon Peterson's book 12 Rules For Life: An Antidote to Chaos."

Or JP might more precisely say that religion is the historical record of man attaining self awareness and ability to think in space and time. That last sentence probably needs a couple more big words stuck in it..... but the intent is there. and it's the thought that counts, right?
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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Despite SHs premature ejaculations that free will has to be an illusion and that science has proved it already, he does IMO a fair job when he talks about morality, punishment and law.

People can not be held accountable entirely for all of their actions. Crimes are surely also the result of causes that were and are beyond a person's control. Usually we assume however, and arranged the legal system accordingly, that there is always a little free space available to maneuver where people can be held accountable for part of some of their actions. The idea that higher degrees of freedom come with more responsibility, with more things to choose from. The advantage of degrees of freedom that are relative (but hard to quantify in practice) instead of some absolutes is huge.

Total freedom and responsibility versus no freedom and responsibility at all. Sort of the extreme left versus the extreme right. These fundamentalist antagonists can in my view not claim that science is on their side. Neither understand science it seems and turn it into a demi-god that either condemns or rewards. It has all the fingerprints of a religious infighting.

Obviously, when all that we are and do is like a neurological weather pattern, how can we be held responsible for anything, or take credit for anything? If one truly believes that a witnessing self making free willed choices is an illusion, which is what SH entertains throughout the book, then what is the point? You, the non-acting witness can just relax and sit back, watch everything unfold before your eyes. Included everything you think and do. You might turn out to behave like a rapist, or maybe a saint! Or an average nobody. It all doesn't matter. Nothing you do, think or feel is, not even in part, your own choice and responsibility. There is no free acting agent, no space for any type of free will.

SHs claim that his view is fully supported by scientific evidence however, is FALSE. At best it is inconclusive. At worst science actually does support a notion of free will, i.e. when understood as relative degrees of freedom - that are even fundamental in the in-animate world of particle physics and at the quantum level. Degrees of freedom that change in interesting ways when multi-particle systems become more complex.

- tbc
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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In the bi-polar observer-observed world there seem to be two main and opposite "solutions":

1. The observer is a powerless witness, the observed an all powerfull causal machine. Say goodbye to free will!

or vice versa:

2. The observer is the all powerful Creator consciousness, the observed just the clay as it is molded along in endless shapes and varieties. God tells the material zombies what to do and how to do it. Free Creative Will Rules!

I will consult Mama Nature about this strange bi-polarity, it looks like a disorder of sorts.

-tbc
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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Parodite wrote:In the bi-polar observer-observed world there seem to be two main and opposite "solutions":

1. The observer is a powerless witness, the observed an all powerfull causal machine. Say goodbye to free will!

or vice versa:

2. The observer is the all powerful Creator consciousness, the observed just the clay as it is molded along in endless shapes and varieties. God tells the material zombies what to do and how to do it. Free Creative Will Rules!

I will consult Mama Nature about this strange bi-polarity, it looks like a disorder of sorts.

-tbc
#3: The Casino. The overall result over time are predictable and determined within parameters, but the observer is completely free.

#4: The Acorn. The observer has a latent or potential predetermined outcomes, but they are not pushed by past accretions of events but pulled forward into the future. Free will is involved in working around obstacles and maximizing the predetermined potential.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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Nonc Hilaire wrote: #3: The Casino. The overall result over time are predictable and determined within parameters, but the observer is completely free.

#4: The Acorn. The observer has a latent or potential predetermined outcomes, but they are not pushed by past accretions of events but pulled forward into the future. Free will is involved in working around obstacles and maximizing the predetermined potential.
Sort of like #4.

Aside which/what/how free will, a nice simple notion that works for me is to say that the past talks causality (with both the pepper and salt of causal determinism and causal indeterminism), the future whispers probability. Where the two meet is the present, events actualized.

causality-past --> event <--- probability-future

Degrees of freedom for events are the product of deterministic constraints set by the past and the probability space made available by the future.

Caveat being that as concepts both past and future are problematic as they don't seem to exist in reality. Abstractions derived from a changing present. A changing present is all we really have.
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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My earlier conversation with Mama Nature continued.

------------------------------------------------------------------

M: "So what about the hard problem of consciousness and empirical data?"

MN: "The notion that the hard problem is the result of trying to do what is literally impossible is supported by empirical evidence."

M: "How so?"

MN: "Take the scientific method. If you have a theory that for instance says that only white swans exist, you have to look for a black swan. The road to verifying a theory is to try falsifying it. You have to try prove yourself wrong. If after eons of research and leaving no stone unturned you find only white swans you can accept the theory that all swans are white. The probability that the theory "only white swans exist" is false gets smaller and smaller. It probably is true that all swans are white. Beyond reasonable doubt.

Likewise, if you have a theory that consciousness arises naturally in the brain as an effect caused by brain activity as observed, you have to try falsifying it looking for black swans. Anything in the brain that does not cause conscious events to occur is a black swan.

M: "Hm. Well, but since no concious events are observed in brains to begin with, it would seem the entire brain is, in fact, a black swan!"

MN: "Quite right. You can look at, into the brain of your neighbor but you won't find his streams of conscious experience there. Not even little drops of it. Same is true if you'd look into your own brain. All you find are very complex biochemical structures and processes. But nothing like conscious experience."

M: "Yes, you only find physical correlates of conscious experience, never 1st person experience itself."

MN: "How long have people been looking for consciousness in brains, in alleged physical reality, in each and every corner of it?"

M: "Looks like forever..."

MN: "Indeed. That is an empirical fact. The theory that consciousness arises in the brain has been falsified totally and convincingly for ages now. The brain is the black swan itself that falsifies the theorie that consciousness arises in it."

M: "Yet, we know that consciousness correlates with what can be observed in the brain. A lot of progess is being made finding more and more detailed correlates. It is therefore safe to say that for every moment of conscious experience there exists a correlate in brain chemistry. The immense richness of conscious experience correlates with immensely complex biochemical structures and processes.

For every conscious event there is a correlating biochemical (set of) event(s) in the brain."

MN: "True. No doubt about it. And it makes people crazy. How can this be? The correlation is total but the causal connection is absent. A worst case example of the proverbial "correlation is not causation". Correlation and causation seem to be seperated by a void that cannot be bridged. There is an "explanatory gap" that is fundamental here.

M: "So science has to admit defeat here? If the gap is fundamental... trying to bridge, jump it would be suicide."

MN: "Suicide is never a good idea, certainly for science! And not necessary. All that happened is that science discovered something amazing and very interesting: an explanatory gap. What do you do when you are exploring and stumble upon something extremely interesting like a serious gap that can't be crossed using the tools and methods that were thusfar available available to you?

You are exploring a glaciar. You are stopped in your tracks by a crevasse that not only is deeper than your equipment can probe, it is also wider than the eye can see. Everyting tells you that this crevasse can not be crossed. What you do?"

M: "You consider that for anything to be a crevasse it has to have depth and width. It can be huge, even bigger than you can measure, but it has limits. It has a certain size, a scope. So with enough smarts and high tech tooling you assume that even this monster gap can be conquered. The bigger the challenge, the more obsessed we are conquering it.

But I still only see explorers gathered at the edge of the crevasse, gazing and wondering. No one ever has made a first succesful step. Mount Everest looks like a sunday afternoon walk in the park in comparison!"

MN: "So who are all those explorers gazing into and over the gap?"

M: "Well, al kinds of people. Mind-body philosophers, scientists. You know, anybody who loves the empirical method and understands science in general. I would say that empiral science is what brought them there, at the edge of the crevasse. Weird!"

MN: "True, and one of them is Sam Harris. Gazing into the endless gap and talking about free will. What do you think he is doing there exactly?"

M: "He appears to be doing what they all are doing. Explaining consciousness and stuff as if there is no gap, or as if they crossed the gap already and explain things from the other side."

NM: "I know I put words into you mouth by posing suggestive questions, but you are right. Given that conscious free will is on the other side of the crevasse, it would only be justified to make serious claims about free will after you succesfully crossed the gap. Otherwise you are just pissing in the wind."

M: "I'm not sure SH is pissing in the wind. He is one of the smartest guys I know."

NM: "He is though. Empirical science, the scientific method is what brought them there. Stopped in their tracks by a serious gap. On the other side they see, in the eyes of their minds, consciousness and also conscious free will (which is just one of the functions of consciousness). So they apply the same knowledge, tools and established scientific theory while crossing that gap in their minds and then say something about free will."

M: "That may be so, but aren't thought expriments also legitimate ways to figure out things? You can do a virtual crossing of the gap and see where it gets you."

MN: "Doing virtual crossings is what is called meta-physics. You imagine things and that is not empirical science, at least not yet. Thought experiments can lead to new theories and experiments to test them. At one point gaps are crossed, bridges made and new territory conquered by the scientific method. With new technology following in its slipstream. But no one has ever made one piece of a bridge that will cross the explanatory gap between physical reality and consciousness."

M: "Still it is couregous of people who give it a try, even if just in their minds!"

NM: "No it isn't. It is actually sad as it usually f*cks up their minds. As long as they believe that what they see is a real gap that ought to be bridged, and that there is territory on the other side that can be conquered. The longer they stare down into and beyond the cravesse, the nuttier they get. Especially when quantum mechanics has already tortured their epistemological neurons. People who already go off the deep because of quantum mechanics are strongly adviced not to make a journey to the Great Crevasse! There is no recovery for the ill equiped and faint of heart who face the Dragon."

M: "So you are saying that if somebody like SH uses empirical data and established scientific theory... then does a virtual jump over the gap and starts talking about consciousness, claiming that free is an illusion using the same empirical data and methods before he jumped, is doing a meta-physics of sorts?"

MN: "Exactly right. Saying free will is an illusion is like a religious statement. But the claim that free will is not an illusion would equally be a meta-physical statement.

All claims made about consciousness are a religious statement as long as you believe that empirical science should be able to bridge the gap you see in front of you."

M: "Pretty dire!"

MN: "Dire it is, especially for those who keep looking for ways to cross it, who refuse to give up. They tend to go insane and start creating philosophical wordsalads, throwing around concepts and connecting dots that are nothing but words connecting more words into sentences and then call it a viable explanation. It is not even a valid description of the problem!

Or they look for help in quantum mechanics where supposedly one mystery must be able to explain another. Or that one mystery "should have to do something" with another mystery. Equal dead ends. The gap is there to stay forever. As your Mother I promise you this: it will never go away."

M: " A sad reality."

MN: "Of course not! The fact that this gap cannot be bridged is a very important scientific fact. All scientists and explorers should be excited!

The misconception is often that science is only about how thinks work, what is possible. However, science it is equally the discovery of how things are not possible. Why can't you fly like a bird? There are good reasons for it and science can give you some extremely compelling answers. You only have to find the right questions to ask.

You see a gap in front of you that can't be bridged. Instead of insisting that you ought to be able to cross it, you should just accept the fact that all empirical data show that you can't. Nobody ever succeeded and it strongly looks like nobody ever will.

The next question simply is: why/how is that?

One possible answer is that the gap is simply too deep and wide. We are not equipped, don't have the tools. A practical limitation.

Another answer could be that the gap is not really there. That it is more like a mirage, an optical illusion of sorts. That in fact there is nothing to be bridged. Can science help understand how Mama Nature creates these types of things, mirages, optical delusions, virtual problems that appear convincingly real? The appearance of things in general? Of course... and the answers are flowing in from the neuro sciences almost on a daily basis.

- tbc
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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My conversation with Mama Nature turned mysterious. She basically told me that there was no point in going forward. That either the gap was too wide to ever cross or that there was no real gap to begin with. A mirage, an optical illusion.

If the latter is the case, which is what she suggested... then what is there to do? How does understanding a mirage help? It gives you the uncanny freeling that consciousness itself is the mirage. That everything is an illusion. That consciousness is a devious joke and physical reality fake news consisting of "alternative facts". That all you can hope for is science explaining optical illusions but without being clear what non-illusory reality creates those illusions. Mathematics maybe is the language of nature able to describe both the illusory and the non-illusory, but who can fully understand and speak that language? An autistic savant math genious with IQ 350? And isn't all language leaving out something? Reality just seems too big and too alive to be captured by sentences or mathematical equations. The Gods allow us to call them names but don't let us lock them up in boxes, words are their prisons.

So I decided to ask Papa God for help. Being a man of few words he would at least not torture me with endless deliberations. And I was not disappointed.

M: "PG, I talked to MN but she left me clueless and nowhere to go."

PG: "I know how you feel son. Happens to me all the time, I just learned to give up."

M: "What you mean?"

PG: "Your MN just talks stories, connecting all kinds of dots. She weaves her web around you. You are an insect caught in a spiders web. Trying to escape is useless. The harder you try the faster she knows to find you. Resisting means you die earlier. She will eat you. If you are able to play dead you just die later from exhaustion, starvation. Just pick the type of death you prefer. Better is of course not to get caught in the first place. Try avoid light sources, don't fly towards them. When your mother starts talking just let her talk and tell her she is right. Then go out and do something else."

M: "But..."

PG cutting me off: "Stop the but thing son! Go out and do something useful. That makes you happy."
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

Post by Simple Minded »

Parodite wrote:
M: "But..."

PG cutting me off: "Stop the but thing son! Go out and do something useful. That makes you happy."
Amen Bro! I for one am glad that PG told you to spend time sharing your opinions on the internet!

kudos!
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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Thanks Bro. :) Always enjoy conversations with MN and PG. Been cutting some wood and drinking tea so Zen God must be happy too. I'm not done with MN though! So far was the easy part. The rest is vertical climbing without ropes, destination the bottom of a crevasse. In an upside-down world where all appears to happen in reverse and inside-out.

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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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Realised that MN has not been forthcoming about free will. But first a little recap before I will drill the free will question further.

She explained the explanatory gap between the physical world and consciousness and why it only is an appearance, a mirage and pointed out that brain research, the neurology of perception is quite able to show how the creation of such "as-if" perceptions work.

A good and easy example to check, she told me, is the perception of the color of an object you see. The brain is able to make you believe the greenness of that object to exist outside the brain in your environment, whereas in fact the visual experience of that green object occurs in the brain. That in fact everything you preceive as the physical world out there is brain process in here.

Like somebody pointing his own finger to himself saying: "No! This is not me! Believe me!" and able to convince everybody that he is speaking the truth. Even more strikingly: he even believes it himself. I would term this the Jim Carry effect, the "there is no me":

QxsUnvYKHyM


It is surrendering to the ultimate consequence of believing the hallucinations the brain creates are true. People looking for spirituality and meaning are falling for it, having to fill the void with nonsense like "Fields of energy dancing for itself" (another phrase of Jim Carry that he picked up somewhere).

-tbc, and soon back to free will again.
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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M: "I still feel my question has not been answered: does free will exist, is is possible, real? You went on to talk alot about consciousness, explanatory gaps, mirages and stuff, but how does that inform me about free will?"

MN: "Yes. And we talked about determinism, in-determinism and probability. I will summarize it for you: actual events cannot be fully predicted because initial conditions during scientific measurements cannot be predicted or controlled completely either. Uncertainty therefore is fundamental. There only appears to be probability, and other weird stuff emanating from the quantum world. What would you make of that?"

M: "It appears that actual events occur in some sort of black box, where nothing is decided untill it is decided so to speak."

MN: "That's pretty close. Nothing is indeed decided until it is decided. So what causes a decision to occur, an event to be actualized? They happen sort of ex-nihilo you think?"

M: "I have no idea! It seems such a black box to me."

MN: "But you have to formulate a question, at least if you are looking for answers. Is it difficult to find the right question here?"

M: "Definately!"

MN: "Then here is an exercise. Try formulate a question for which you have absolutely no answer. Not even an inkling of a possible answer. None whatsoever. It can be any toy question, that's ok. What matters is that you should not have an answer for it, not even an idea of a possible one."

M: "Hmm.. I tried. But it's not easy! It seems like I can only invent questions for which I do have one or more possible answers. Reasonable or silly questions makes no difference. No matter the question, it comes with a host of possible answers, some just vague intuitions and inklings."

MN: "So it turns out very difficult to create a question where the answer is hidden and sealed in a black box, right? You don't even know if there is an answer in that black box. If anyone could open that black box and find it empty, than you would really have a created a question for which therte is no answer. It would be the gold medal in philosophy. Or there turns out to be an answer, but it is so incomprihensible that it cannot be deciphered by anyone."

M: "Indeed! I just don't seem able to do it."

MN: "I will tell you: that is because you can't. I'm your mother remember, no one knows you better than me. And you are not my first child either. My millions of kids were never able to ask questions for which they did not have one or more possible answers that came with the question."

M: "Ok, but how is that relevant to the black box of actual events in the world and free will?"

MN: "You are not paying attention! You are asking a question again, so I ask you: what are the possible answers you already must have for this particular question?"

M: "Well, like you say, maybe there is no answer in the black box, or maybe it is encrypted and no one has the key to decrypt it. Or, for some other reason, that black box can't be opened. Or maybe there is no black box. That it is a mirage like the explanatory gap."

MN: "Very good. I think you pretty much exhausted the options. So what about the black box we started the discussion with? You found some possible answers."

M: "I feel that somehow the answer is also relevant to the question of free will. Questions about will and freedom. About how we make choices and if we can be held responsible for anything. Maybe even about morality and meaning!"

MN: "Be careful.. if you lump everything together all your answers might end up in that black box! You want to be that lost? It becomes a black hole and you yourself being sucked into it. I doubt you want to die already."

M: "Ok okay. No, I want to live and just get some answers before I die. This is between you and me."

MN: "And then the answers die with you."

M: "Well, to me that doesn't matter. But maybe some living benefit from them. Should I not write them down in a book? Make some compelling videos on youtube?"

MN: "That would be like adding bricks to the tower of babel. When the walls come tumbling down just more people die under the rubble. There really is enough confusion already. Why add yours?"

M: "Well, if free will is an illusion why would I care. Whatever I decide will not be under my control so I can relax, sit back and watch what happens. Just like a disconnected witness as Sam Harris and enjoy the meditative peace that surrounds me."

MN: "Dark humor and cynicism have always been appreciated by the Gods. Are you sure you want to continue?"

M: "I start to like this more and more. You answer my questions with counter questions. It sounds like you have no answers yourself either and are just playing me. Papa God warned me about you. Maybe I should have listened."

MN: "Yes, PG gave up already. Because he is older and wiser than you. Fighting me is a lost battle for Papa Gods. You just haven't discovered that yet. It is part of growing up."

M: "I can see why you married him. Just to dominate and belittle him."

MN: "You now start to sound like Jordan B Peterson, who is almost there where PG is already. But he is extremely stubborn and doesn't want walk the final mile. His message about growing up is just self-talk. He cries when he talks about the young men who see in him the father they never had. Why you think he cries? The answer is in the question."

- tbc
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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SH (and like minded thinkers) deconstruct free will by:

1. ..using a god-like definition of free will that is very easy to debunk of course

2. ..while giving determinism more power and scope than it scientically deserves,

3. ..ignoring the fact that actual events occur in sort of a black box, a wiggle room where uncertainty and probability rule in quantum mechanics, with possible outcomes in a "super position" until the wave function collapses mathematically during measurement. With a tip to the hat of Typhoon who pointed out that hidden variables are not needed in that black box (in my interpretation here.)

Like any event, also a free willed choice would be actualized in a black box because also multi-particle quantum systems obey the quantum formalisms, in this case a very complex neurological process with conscious, pre-conscious and unconscious sub-processes, with loops/circuits and connections extending into the body as a whole. This means we fundamentally do no know how events are actualized precisely in causal terms.

This results in what is my conclusion and credo on the matter of free will:

We cannot make definite statements about whether free will, in some form or other, is possible or impossible.

There is, almost literally, enough wiggle room to define a form of free will that suits your personal experience and convictions. There is however no proof available to support any of it.

Free will is further deconstructed by Sam Harris from another dubious angle: to call the self an illusion.

The way I read SH, his entire exercise to deconstruct free will is an attempt to legitimize the annihilation of the self altogether. I won't call it suicide yet, but a virtual one it is. Of course he flirts with eastern philosophy/spirituality.

fajfkO_X0l0

As with free will it is possible to use a ludicrous out of whack definition of "the self" that is extremely easy to debunk. Which is what SH does, again.

The self however is not the same as selfishness, self-centeredness or yuuuge Ego. I see the self as something natural, biological and functional. Like a Christmas tree but without decorations. Ego etc. are decorations that can grow on it. Culture adds loads of shiny bling balls to it. Add mirrors to self-reflect and it makes a nice profitable industry, no doubt about it.

The natural self, the core of it, is just the representation of my body in its environment.

Without this self-representation of our bodies in our environments we would die. If a cheetah would loose the ability to know it is here instead of there, it would never catch his dinner. It would loose its ability to navigate.

That you would lose your ability to navigate without the natural self is illustrated by people who don't believe in the self and want to get rid of it: all they seem able to do is sit still and close their eyes. No surprise. :D
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Re: Sam Harris versus Free Will

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MN: "Son, I see you have started figuring out some things. You have decided that human beings cannot make definite statements about the possibility or impossibility of free will. That there is some wiggle room to think of free will on your own terms and that science allows for that. A space to play freely. I like your concept of a wiggle room btw."

M: "Yes! But am I right?"

MN: "If you are right, I would not be able to tell. Because I would be one giant wiggle room myself."

M: "I don't know that, but maybe you do? I need you to tell me how actual events come about in the black box, in the wiggle room. You are the entirety of the universe. Maybe even more universes. You are the only one with total accuracy, with full knowledge! What is the problem with you revealing more of your secrets? It seems a bit odd to leave us in the dark. Why do we have to do all the hard work? While you just remain a mystery at heart. No matter what we do."

MN: "Questions and answers is just not my thing you know. Answers never occur to me unless somebody throws me a question. The answer I give during empirical research for instance, is to you an answer but to me it is not. It is just like taking another zip of coffee. Anything goes. No friction here. Nothing covered, nothing revealed. I am superconductive.

I do occasionally get tired though, of all this questioning and poking into my body. Also these prayers can be pretty tiring so I usually transfer them to PG who has much more time on his hands! There is not a moment I am not busy with the chores of life. And he loves to give answers. A real mans-plainer! Some of these answers are mine, some are his.

He has a special gift to comfort and tell stories. I make sure all bellies are filled, PG guards your wandering mind not needlessly falling off the virtual cliff: imaginary pain can be as hurtful as real pain.

Phantom pain of limbs that never existed is the worst and most persistent. That is PGs specialty, he is a Master of curing, mending them. Still don't understand how he does it, magic!"
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