MGTOW | Men Going Their Own Way

[Mr. Perfect]

For what its worth a lot of the alt-right fanbase grew out of the "men's rights" movement and the "pick up artist" movement, between which there is often a lot of overlap (among the younger fans at least).

Lol right again ibs. Can't get anything past you. These raging alt righters are coming out of the woodwork.



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An Irish academic named Angela Nagle actually dug through all of the online ranting and blogging to investigate the evolution of some of these different groups and produced a short book of the subject that I found quite interesting. Its also slightly worrying since the "lone wolf" attacks in the US and Canada as of late seem to be made by young men adhering to these anti-feminist and often misogynistic ideologies.

Would that include Muslims.

BTW out of 10,000 murders or so per year in the US can you tell us how many are from antifeminists misogynistic ideologies, compared to say other ideologies.

Not to say that everyone involved in "men's rights" is an murderous "incel."

I think that is safe to say. Out of the millions of men involved in mens rights I think 1 or 2 per year commit a murder in the name of that ideology. So yes, I agree, safe to say not everyone involved in mens rights is murderer. I think the numbers may even be lower than Islam, in terms murdering in the name of an ideology. Thankfully a rare thing. Right.

I think 1 or 2 out of millions safely gets out of "not everyone" category.

There are plenty of men who got the short end of the stick in their divorce and just want to post with some people who had similar experiences.

How do you tell which ones are going to be murderers or not.

[Ibrahim]

Would that include Muslims.

Presently mass-murders by "incels" and white nationalists are more frequent than those by Islamists in North America, but I would agree that the motivations are similar. In both cases we are talking about frustrated young men who adopt a cargo cult version of traditional culture as an excuse or justification for what is ultimately nihilistic violence. Misogyny seems to be the common denominator of both groups, and other regional variations on extremism besides.

[noddy]

seeing as every culture throws up loser guys who act all creepy with women, Id say muslim terrorists and american shooters are not caused by incels but some other cultural forces.

i find it amusing how some folks are freaking out at the existence of incels and whats going on in their heads, ignorance was indeed bliss it seems.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Yeah, this conversation is getting out of hand with lots of ancillary things to bicker about.

Incels may be my least favorite word in the history of words.

Creepiness is an aesthetic judgement and not a crime.

There are plenty of men who get plastered with this label, usually by people who will deliver a stirring philippic about labeling, who are just odd ducks.

At the same time, there are a lot of low quality men and women out there. A whole lot.

And that's on the parents- [not sure if it needs to be added: in cases where they were around and could be around].

Sometimes you don't come to that conclusion until it's too late. Or the person changes. Or you were naive.

But a lot of times it's pretty obvious from the start and you get what you wanted, good and hard.

[Simple Minded]

seeing as every culture throws up loser guys who act all creepy with women, Id say muslim terrorists and american shooters are not caused by incels but some other cultural forces.

i find it amusing how some folks are freaking out at the existence of incels and whats going on in their heads, ignorance was indeed bliss it seems.

ignorance does indeed solve many of society's problem. damn shame more SJW's and CJW's don't try it.

I read something on the internets the other day about how there are no incels in New Zealand. Is this true?

[Simple Minded]

But a lot of times it's pretty obvious from the start and you get what you wanted, good and hard.

Thousands of years of history and life experience crammed inside the above sentence. I salute you.

Ever think about opening some type of online university, therapy clinic, or starting a new religion?

[Mr. Perfect]

seeing as every culture throws up loser guys who act all creepy with women, Id say muslim terrorists and american shooters are not caused by incels but some other cultural forces.

But we have a narrative to maintain.

[noddy]

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[Ibrahim]

seeing as every culture throws up loser guys who act all creepy with women, Id say muslim terrorists and american shooters are not caused by incels but some other cultural forces.

i find it amusing how some folks are freaking out at the existence of incels and whats going on in their heads, ignorance was indeed bliss it seems.

I think it was easier to ignore the incels before they started committing mass-murders, and more alarmingly for those uninitiated in the more disturbing parts of the internet, that the killers are lauded in the forums where these people congregate.


But agree with you completely that this is an eternal and universal problem of loser young men, and social media hasn't helped. I only point out that anger about feminism and the improved condition of women in our civilization is a warning sign.

[Apollonius]

The unending war against masculinity and men - Toby Young, The Spectator, 10 January 2019
https://spectator.us/war-masculinity-men/

For the first time in its history, the American Psychological Association (APA) has issued guidelines for mental health professionals working with men and boys. That may not sound like a momentous event, but the APA is a powerful body. It has 117,500 members, including the vast majority of practicing psychologists, and an annual budget of $115 million. Its guidance documents carry the imprimatur of scientific authority and are hugely influential when it comes to policies and behavior in public institutions. This edict will be referred to by university administrators when policing sexual interactions on campus, by the courts when deciding who to award custody to in divorce hearings and by HR departments when assessing complaints about male employees. It’s not an exaggeration to say this new guidance will affect the lives of millions of men and boys for years to come.

I cannot claim to have read the entire 30,000-word document, but I’ve got the gist: masculinity is a bad, bad thing. Traditional male qualities like courage, self-reliance, competitiveness, stoicism, personal ambition and a love of adventure are ‘psychologically harmful’. On the face of it, men and boys might appear to benefit from ‘patriarchy’ — after all, 95.2 percent of the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are men — but in reality the emotional repression needed to maintain this ‘privilege’ exacts a terrible toll. It is the ethical duty of psychologists, as well as parents, teachers, coaches, religious and community leaders, to root out these masculine pathologies and help men become…well, less manly.

If you’re in any doubt about the takeover of the American psychological profession by grievance studies professors, look no further than these guidelines. There’s scarcely a sentence that isn’t freighted with the ideology of the social justice left. Gender is ‘socially constructed’ and ‘non-binary’; sex is ‘assigned at birth’ rather than observed and recorded; ‘dominant masculinity’ is historically dependent on ‘the exclusion of men who are not white, heterosexual, cisgender, able-bodied and privileged’; psychologists should learn about ‘the impact of racism and homophobia on the behavior and mental health of boys and men’ and ‘counter the damaging effects of microaggressions’; on it goes. Racism, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, ageism, ableism… blah, blah, blah. The word ‘transgender’ occurs more often (56) than ‘masculine’ (53). This isn’t impartial, evidence-based advice. It’s a manifesto.

[Apollonius]

Psychology's war on men - Christopher DeGroot, Taki's Magazine, 11 January 2019
https://www.takimag.com/article/psychologys-war-on-men/

[noddy]

now we have gay marriage thats really going to complicate the mgtow thing

[Simple Minded]

now we have gay marriage thats really going to complicate the mgtow thing

it'll either complicate it, or it will be self correcting. I can imagine a divorce proceeding between two married gay men.

Judge: Which one of you is the man in this marriage?
Fred: He is.
Joe: No I'm not! He is!
Fred: No I'm not! You are!

[Nonc Hilaire]

now we have gay marriage thats really going to complicate the mgtow thing

it'll either complicate it, or it will be self correcting. I can imagine a divorce proceeding between two married gay men.

Judge: Which one of you is the man in this marriage?
Fred: He is.
Joe: No I'm not! He is!
Fred: No I'm not! You are!

Gay divorce court is going to be awesome.

[Simple Minded]

now we have gay marriage thats really going to complicate the mgtow thing

it'll either complicate it, or it will be self correcting. I can imagine a divorce proceeding between two married gay men.

Judge: Which one of you is the man in this marriage?
Fred: He is.
Joe: No I'm not! He is!
Fred: No I'm not! You are!

Gay divorce court is going to be awesome.

Joe: Shut up bitch!
Fred: I will not. I'm sick of you mansplaining stuff to me!
Judge: Ah ha!

[noddy]

I havent kept up on if gay marriage has the sneeky "automatic defacto after 6 months of cohab" time bomb that straight marriage does.

[Simple Minded]

I havent kept up on if gay marriage has the sneeky "automatic defacto after 6 months of cohab" time bomb that straight marriage does.

I'm not sure we have that rule in Merka. Please explain.

I'm losing track of proper decorum. Can we even acknowledge that some people are gay and some are straight? Or is that being racist?

Meanwhile back to gay divorce court:

Joe: Your honor, we had a great marriage until 6 months ago, then he decided he wanted to be the wife.
Fred: I had to be the wife! You couldn''t even match your own socks!
Judge thinks: I coulda been a plumber......

[Nonc Hilaire]

I havent kept up on if gay marriage has the sneeky "automatic defacto after 6 months of cohab" time bomb that straight marriage does.

No more common law marriage in the USA. Legal marriage is now designed as a contract with USA Inc. which makes it easier for the state to appropriate estates and makes accumulating generational wealth much harder.

[noddy]

I'm losing track of proper decorum. Can we even acknowledge that some people are gay and some are straight? Or is that being racist?

Nonc says its called "Common Law Marriage" in america and you mostly dont have it ,

Wiki says " Colorado, Iowa, Kansas, Montana, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Texas, Utah, and the District of Columbia" do have some forms of it.

In Australia its called "De Facto" marriage and the longer a couple live together, the more "married" they get in the eyes of the law.

Social Security will consider you de facto married after 6 months and reduce your payments, its a year or two for the rest of the law to kick in and then you lose half your lavender (tm) same as normal married couple.

Apparently gay couples also suffer from, ermm, enjoy the freedom and equality of, defacto laws.

---

Nonc is also right that removing defacto laws removes a long term partners rights against the state stealing all the stuff after the others death, Im not sure if that makes up for getting the law involved in a regular relationship breakdown and someone stealing all your lavender just because you shagged them and let them into your house :/

[noddy]

The unending war against masculinity and men - Toby Young, The Spectator, 10 January 2019
https://spectator.us/war-masculinity-men/

For the first time in its history, the American Psychological Association (APA) has issued guidelines for mental health professionals working with men and boys. That may not sound like a momentous event, but the APA is a powerful body. It has 117,500 members, including the vast majority of practicing psychologists, and an annual budget of $115 million. Its guidance documents carry the imprimatur of scientific authority and are hugely influential when it comes to policies and behavior in public institutions. This edict will be referred to by university administrators when policing sexual interactions on campus, by the courts when deciding who to award custody to in divorce hearings and by HR departments when assessing complaints about male employees. It’s not an exaggeration to say this new guidance will affect the lives of millions of men and boys for years to come.

I cannot claim to have read the entire 30,000-word document, but I’ve got the gist: masculinity is a bad, bad thing. Traditional male qualities like courage, self-reliance, competitiveness, stoicism, personal ambition and a love of adventure are ‘psychologically harmful’. On the face of it, men and boys might appear to benefit from ‘patriarchy’ — after all, 95.2 percent of the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies are men — but in reality the emotional repression needed to maintain this ‘privilege’ exacts a terrible toll. It is the ethical duty of psychologists, as well as parents, teachers, coaches, religious and community leaders, to root out these masculine pathologies and help men become…well, less manly.

If you’re in any doubt about the takeover of the American psychological profession by grievance studies professors, look no further than these guidelines. There’s scarcely a sentence that isn’t freighted with the ideology of the social justice left. Gender is ‘socially constructed’ and ‘non-binary’; sex is ‘assigned at birth’ rather than observed and recorded; ‘dominant masculinity’ is historically dependent on ‘the exclusion of men who are not white, heterosexual, cisgender, able-bodied and privileged’; psychologists should learn about ‘the impact of racism and homophobia on the behavior and mental health of boys and men’ and ‘counter the damaging effects of microaggressions’; on it goes. Racism, homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, ageism, ableism… blah, blah, blah. The word ‘transgender’ occurs more often (56) than ‘masculine’ (53). This isn’t impartial, evidence-based advice. It’s a manifesto.

My problem with all these analysis is that Ive met these types of guys, Ive read all the horror stories, Ive seen some of it for myself first hand, but its really just a subset of inner city middle class sheltered types who are ending up in this twisted mess.

In the area I live, boys grow up free range and rough much the same as they always have and the percentages of smothered by mothering kids is quite low.

until the progressive loon parties, represented by the Greens ,start puling numbers bigger than the 5% of city votes they currently get, Ill be ambivilent to it I think.

[Simple Minded]

My problem with all these analysis is that Ive met these types of guys, Ive read all the horror stories, Ive seen some of it for myself first hand, but its really just a subset of inner city middle class sheltered types who are ending up in this twisted mess.

In the area I live, boys grow up free range and rough much the same as they always have and the percentages of smothered by mothering kids is quite low.

until the progressive loon parties, represented by the Greens ,start puling numbers bigger than the 5% of city votes they currently get, Ill be ambivilent to it I think.

good points. I have thought about "cyber-posing" (TM) relative to my life's experiences, and it seems almost everyone I have met is an outlier, according to view of reality expressed by the idealists.

I volunteered for a local animal shelter for a couple decades including a dozen or so years on the Board of Directors. An often "recurring occurrence" (TM) was the well intentioned idealist who had no concept of budgets and limited resources that exist in reality, who would gladly tell you what you are doing wrong, and what you should be doing instead, to better meet their ideals. This was/is extremely discouraging to the rank and file workers who are actually spending time in the trenches.

When questioned, or even encouraged to get involved, the excuses of the idealist were legion.

Idealist: "You know what you guys should be doing instead is _________."
Me: "That's a great idea. Would you be willing to spend a few minutes outlining that idea on a piece of paper with a few details so I can present that to our Board of Directors?"
idealist: "I, uh, well, um, er, I don't have the time right now."
Me: "Do you know about our volunteer program? If you give me your name and phone number, I could have the person who runs our volunteer program get in touch with you and let you know when our next orientation program will be scheduled."
Idealist: "I, uh, well, um, er, I have to go now. I'll be in touch."

Of course, most of the time, you never heard from that person again. Or they showed up for orientation, but were never seen again.

Hence I now create the term "cyber-seagulls" (TM) (like seagull management, to describe the well intentioned idealist who has no intention of getting in the trenches and getting their hands dirty. They fly in, make a lot of noise, crap all over everything, and then fly away) to describe those who use the internet to criticize situations they have no actual contact with or experience in real life, but only become aware of thru the internet.

For example, the people who criticize cops doing an extremely difficult job in a hostile environment, but who have never spent any time going on "ride alongs" for several nights to actually learn about and experience "reality on the ground."

Criticizing "others" without spending any time walking in the other person's shoes has never been easier due to modern tech.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

The APA is a body of functionaries who wish to control all normative questions. To do so, they must constantly campaign to advertise that, as a body, they are on the right (usually the best financed) side of any issue which is currently fashionable.

It has always been the case since its founding in the 1880s.

Beyond the problem of a lack of insight, is our inability to, in the words of kids today, deplatform them. There are no consequences for their quackery. Which also makes them a perfect organization to bolster appeals to authority.

Sort of like how the media and Fortune 500 companies have handed off "hate" to the mail-order scam Southern Poverty Law Center, which has grown ever more powerful because of its irrelevancy.

The same thing has happened with the APA, and similar organizations, which have become ever more entrenched as institutional pillars in proportion to its growing replication crisis of its academic disciplines and its decades long decline on the practitioners' side of things.

[noddy]

I saw elsewhere this document is related to the classic opinion that men bottle up their emotions and wont discuss depression and this leads to a higher rate of suicide amongst them, thusly toxic masculinity.

of course, this is neither here nor there cause any guy that has come out of the depression closet in my experience tends to lose his job and his family , so I think the reasons for trying to cover it up are simpler than all that.

some dont lose the job/family, they just lose the respect of job/family and end up being treated with kid gloves.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Psychologists do not find the APA particularly relevant.

[Ibrahim]

The APA is a body of functionaries who wish to control all normative questions. To do so, they must constantly campaign to advertise that, as a body, they are on the right (usually the best financed) side of any issue which is currently fashionable.

It has always been the case since its founding in the 1880s.

Beyond the problem of a lack of insight, is our inability to, in the words of kids today, deplatform them. There are no consequences for their quackery. Which also makes them a perfect organization to bolster appeals to authority.

Sort of like how the media and Fortune 500 companies have handed off "hate" to the mail-order scam Southern Poverty Law Center, which has grown ever more powerful because of its irrelevancy.

The same thing has happened with the APA, and similar organizations, which have become ever more entrenched as institutional pillars in proportion to its growing replication crisis of its academic disciplines and its decades long decline on the practitioners' side of things.

The APA is like any other scientific or medical organization: arbiters of fact when they agree with my preconceptions, politically motivated quacks and loons when they don't.

Doesn't the APA realize that men and boys are "under attack!?!?!" All the misogyny and violence is just men defending themselves against the loony left. Men need to embrace their traditional dominant roles, as long as they don't get too ethnic about it.

Psychology's war on men - Christopher DeGroot, Taki's Magazine, 11 January 2019
https://www.takimag.com/article/psychologys-war-on-men/

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