The Great Books

[Apollonius]

The overthrow of the great books - Mark Bauerlein, Minding the Campus, 9 April 2018
https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2018/0 ... eat-books/

The Moral Frame of Victimhood

The professors act this way because they are suffused with ressentiment. Ressentiment is, of course, Nietzsche’s term for a certain state of mind, or rather, a condition of being. He liked the French word because it signified a deeper psychology than the German (and English) equivalent does. Ressentiment is the attitude of slave morality, Nietzsche wrote, the moral formation of one who feels rage and envy but hasn’t the strength or courage to act upon them. A man of ressentiment knows and resents his own weakness and mediocrity, and he hates the sight of greatness, which only reminds the lesser party of his own inferiority. And so he fashions a new moral system whereby victimhood becomes a high badge, suspicion signifies a sensitive eye for justice, and group denunciation of lone dissenters is the surest path to virtue.

I am sure many readers of Minding the Campus have come across these types often in their academic careers. I’ve met them again and again, and a great error of my early academic career was to try to befriend them, or at least to try to lay out some common ground of collegiality. How naïve was that! You don’t ingratiate yourself with people who set their vindictiveness behind an exterior of sympathy for the disadvantaged and hurt ones among us. It obligated me to a degree of grubbing. The dynamic is never straightforward. They speak the words diversity and tolerance and inclusion, but they don’t mean them. In their mouths, those make-nice sounds are weapons of reproach. When you first encounter these colleagues, they seem tentative and probing, but not out of friendly curiosity about who you are. It’s a fraught examination of where you stand, for such creatures are acutely conscious that everyone takes a side, and they want to figure whether you’re with-us-or-against-us. Harold Bloom called them the School of Resentment long ago, and he was absolutely right. It took me awhile—far too long—to figure out that the chips on their shoulders had nothing to do with me, only with something they fancied I represented.

[Apollonius]

[Simple Minded]

The overthrow of the great books - Mark Bauerlein, Minding the Campus, 9 April 2018
https://www.mindingthecampus.org/2018/0 ... eat-books/

The Moral Frame of Victimhood

The professors act this way because they are suffused with ressentiment. Ressentiment is, of course, Nietzsche’s term for a certain state of mind, or rather, a condition of being. He liked the French word because it signified a deeper psychology than the German (and English) equivalent does. Ressentiment is the attitude of slave morality, Nietzsche wrote, the moral formation of one who feels rage and envy but hasn’t the strength or courage to act upon them. A man of ressentiment knows and resents his own weakness and mediocrity, and he hates the sight of greatness, which only reminds the lesser party of his own inferiority. And so he fashions a new moral system whereby victimhood becomes a high badge, suspicion signifies a sensitive eye for justice, and group denunciation of lone dissenters is the surest path to virtue.

I am sure many readers of Minding the Campus have come across these types often in their academic careers. I’ve met them again and again, and a great error of my early academic career was to try to befriend them, or at least to try to lay out some common ground of collegiality. How naïve was that! You don’t ingratiate yourself with people who set their vindictiveness behind an exterior of sympathy for the disadvantaged and hurt ones among us. It obligated me to a degree of grubbing. The dynamic is never straightforward. They speak the words diversity and tolerance and inclusion, but they don’t mean them. In their mouths, those make-nice sounds are weapons of reproach. When you first encounter these colleagues, they seem tentative and probing, but not out of friendly curiosity about who you are. It’s a fraught examination of where you stand, for such creatures are acutely conscious that everyone takes a side, and they want to figure whether you’re with-us-or-against-us. Harold Bloom called them the School of Resentment long ago, and he was absolutely right. It took me awhile—far too long—to figure out that the chips on their shoulders had nothing to do with me, only with something they fancied I represented.

I still remember this specific lecture in a philosophy class "The Great Thinkers" at RIT, and with guest professor Clohesy pronouncing it as "ray-say mon."

Made sense over 30 years ago, still does today.

Thanks for posting Apollonius!

Oddly enough, aren't these the same people who would preach against anyone else making a narrow minded assumption about how a stranger self-identifies?

[Doc]

http://highexistence.com/12-life-changi ... t-my-mind/

12 Books That Destroyed and Rebuilt My Mind

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Pat Deenen Against Great Books

For many years, traditionalist thinkers have promoted the teaching of a set of core texts—the “great books”—as a vital element of a liberal arts education during a time when demands for multiculturalism led to the dismantling of a number of traditional programs of study. In more recent years, thinkers such as Harold Bloom and John Searle have argued that the well-rounded, thoughtful individual must have an education grounded in the great texts of the West.

I have long sympathized with these arguments, but in recent years I have come to suspect that the very source of the decline of the study of the great books comes not in spite of the lessons of the great books, but is to be found in the very arguments within a number of the great books. The broader assault on the liberal arts derives much of its intellectual fuel from a number of the great books themselves.

Thus, those who insist upon an education in the great books end up recommending texts and arguments that undermine their own beliefs in the central importance of liberal arts education. Those who habitually defend the great books need to reflect more extensively on the notion of “greatness” and its relationship to the great books—and their authors—that have helped put humanistic education on the ropes.

[noddy]

On the face of it their is no reason to expect an Indian kid or Chinese kid will look upon English Literature with more reverence than their own cultural classis.

This appears to be multiculturism vs multiracial arguments in another form.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

I spoke with someone about education in general tonight, and I came away thinking that it isn't a lack of books but a lack of careful reading which is lagging.

If there were a great books program, it ought to take place in middle schools and high schools. Too much of early education is absolutely wasted.

There are some classes, looking back, I appreciate my teacher pushing through actual books, even if I hated it then. For example, freshman English for me was a whole year of the Shakespeare corpus. That same year, my history class was more akin to a literature class. He assigned each one of us a set of books loosely tied to history, in one way or another. I ended up with Siddhartha, the Aeneid, Beowulf, A Pilgrim's Progress, The Things They Carried, Thomas Hobbes Leviathan and Spinoza's Tractatus Theologico-Politicus; though the last two (especially Spinoza) weren't dealt with cover-to-back, as I recall it.

I cannot say I read all of them thoroughly or even like them all that much (looking at you, Shakespeare); but they stuck nevertheless, and I even revisited some of the ones I slacked off on some years later.

I can't say I ever did that with a print-out handed to me, or a text-selection assigned.

[noddy]

We are in times of change - I dare say the relevance of previous history and literature wont be obvious till it settles a bit.

I remember some babble on the change from bronze age to iron age was not significant for the change in metal, the real relevance was it being completely destructive in terms of cooperation and trade.

bronze required ingrediants that are usualy spread far and wide, iron can be made from a single source in you backyard if you are lucky so this created petty kingdoms with no need to play other peoples games so the entire nature of being alive changed.

I say all that because the current trend is not the actual subjects being taught but the context they are being taught for - the rise of a globalised middle class and the need to participate in that or be left in the dust, like an old copper mine.

Their are no real reference points for this occuring, barring the formation of the silk road or some such.

[noddy]

the crux of that being I think everyone is scared of parochialism as being destructive to coming out infront of this process

this is the lens through which all the rest flows.

[noddy]

I spoke with someone about education in general tonight, and I came away thinking that it isn't a lack of books but a lack of careful reading which is lagging.

If there were a great books program, it ought to take place in middle schools and high schools. Too much of early education is absolutely wasted.

There are some classes, looking back, I appreciate my teacher pushing through actual books, even if I hated it then. For example, freshman English for me was a whole year of the Shakespeare corpus. That same year, my history class was more akin to a literature class. He assigned each one of us a set of books loosely tied to history, in one way or another. I ended up with Siddhartha, the Aeneid, Beowulf, A Pilgrim's Progress, The Things They Carried, Thomas Hobbes Leviathan and Spinoza's Tractatus Theologico-Politicus; though the last two (especially Spinoza) weren't dealt with cover-to-back, as I recall it.

I cannot say I read all of them thoroughly or even like them all that much (looking at you, Shakespeare); but they stuck nevertheless, and I even revisited some of the ones I slacked off on some years later.

I can't say I ever did that with a print-out handed to me, or a text-selection assigned.

I went to a classic anglican school and had all the classics rammed down my throat, also had parents which encouraged the reading of such things anyway.

As long as you have the skill levels to read them, im not sure you do need to read them at school, that should come naturally from your attitude to your own cultural history.. and wont be for everybody.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

We are in times of change - I dare say the relevance of previous history and literature wont be obvious till it settles a bit.

I remember some babble on the change from bronze age to iron age was not significant for the change in metal, the real relevance was it being completely destructive in terms of cooperation and trade.

bronze required ingrediants that are usualy spread far and wide, iron can be made from a single source in you backyard if you are lucky so this created petty kingdoms with no need to play other peoples games so the entire nature of being alive changed.

I say all that because the current trend is not the actual subjects being taught but the context they are being taught for - the rise of a globalised middle class and the need to participate in that or be left in the dust, like an old copper mine.

Their are no real reference points for this occuring, barring the formation of the silk road or some such.

Well, I see your point, and it's one I tend towards myself.

It also reminds me of something I read the other day. To paraphrase: James Joyce wrote with the expectation that people would be pouring over his words for four hundred years; there is a good chance he won't last much more than a hundred.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

I spoke with someone about education in general tonight, and I came away thinking that it isn't a lack of books but a lack of careful reading which is lagging.

If there were a great books program, it ought to take place in middle schools and high schools. Too much of early education is absolutely wasted.

There are some classes, looking back, I appreciate my teacher pushing through actual books, even if I hated it then. For example, freshman English for me was a whole year of the Shakespeare corpus. That same year, my history class was more akin to a literature class. He assigned each one of us a set of books loosely tied to history, in one way or another. I ended up with Siddhartha, the Aeneid, Beowulf, A Pilgrim's Progress, The Things They Carried, Thomas Hobbes Leviathan and Spinoza's Tractatus Theologico-Politicus; though the last two (especially Spinoza) weren't dealt with cover-to-back, as I recall it.

I cannot say I read all of them thoroughly or even like them all that much (looking at you, Shakespeare); but they stuck nevertheless, and I even revisited some of the ones I slacked off on some years later.

I can't say I ever did that with a print-out handed to me, or a text-selection assigned.

I went to a classic anglican school and had all the classics rammed down my throat, also had parents which encouraged the reading of such things anyway.

As long as you have the skill levels to read them, im not sure you do need to read them at school, that should come naturally from your attitude to your own cultural history.. and wont be for everybody.

The Anglican/Episcopalian schooling tradition is a whole different species for me.

My background is public, Catholic schools and a quasi-enrollment in a local Episcopalian/Methodist upper crust school - the public schools being much better, on the whole. All I learnt from Catholic school (religious instruction a different kettle of fish) was low grade class snobbery. The Episcopalians were much better at being patronizing, and could insult you so subtly it would take time to register.

...another Spengler-ism...I share in his sourness for fiction (to some extent.) I don't believe much in these books nor do I think it all that lacking if someone doesn't wanna read these books. I especially think, in my own experience, those teachers prancing around, going on about the "magic of books" and the like, turned me off from reading for years.

But I do think that if you are to inculcate kids with a culture, that hyper-literate one is not the worst to go with; if it has any life left in the tank, that is. In which case I am a big believer in cramming that stuff in at young, younger and younger. Get the base down early and then let the chips fall where they may.

...I'm also fond of rote learning at an early age.

[noddy]

I did some time in a catholic school overseas but it didnt last as my levels on the basic topics were massively different to the local kids of my age so it was largely a waste of time for all concerned.

the private anglican schools are A-Grade floggery, tho they do provide a good introduction in how to play with the other half, if not become one.

the one I went to wasnt as bad as the rest of them - they usually tended towards 90% rich kids and 10% others while mine was the dumping ground for the children of miners and farmers and other remote families so it was its own thing.

rote learning and the classic books are definately good things, Id push them hard as a raw skillset development up to that teenage point they no longer receive spoon fed advice and your left with whatever it is they have actually become.

as for modern schools and kids coming from backgrounds that done care about such things... well, im not convinced life in the future is going to have much to offer the 90% anyway so maybe social skills are about all they can really benefit from learning (without having an active self teaching interest of their own)

[Nonc Hilaire]

The classics need to be redacted and put into a more engaging style.

[Doc]

The classics need to be redacted and put into a more engaging style.

You might find an answer of sorts here: viewtopic.php?p=127930#p127930

IE We have all the time in the world to do things other than tasks to ensure our minimal survival So we invented the internet among many other things to take up the hours and minutes of our days. People complain about information overload. For the 99% there is simply not time in the day to read the classics. Even someone like me that has read many thousands of books.

I noted in college I could read Chaucer out loud, but I could never read Chaucer silently. So like the guy walking down the street arguing with his girlfriend over his blue tooth enabled headset, obliviously making a spectacle of himself, as he waves his arms around like a mad man, I can read Chaucer.

Seems like an English lit grad student somewhere could do their thesis by running the Canterbury tales through a spell checker. If it actually works, give him a PhD and tenure.

[Typhoon]

The classics need to be redacted and put into a more engaging style.

[Nonc Hilaire]

Those were my favorite comics.

[Simple Minded]

What I am getting from this thread is children raised by Morlock parents experience a different reality than children raised by Eloi parents......

No mention of Penthouse, Hustler, Playboy, Popular Mechanics, or Mad magazine to be found.....

As one of my French co-workers pointed out "French children learn the difference between Sauvignons and Chablis in their childhoods. American children learn the difference between Coke and Pepsi!"

Then there is Shakespeare and welding.......

[Doc]

The classics need to be redacted and put into a more engaging style.

Or how about

_dl2L4v6ecM

[Nonc Hilaire]

Seriously, I have read modern translations of Josephus, Eusebius and Rumi. The old translations are almost inpenetrable but the new ones are incredibly clear.

Look at the bible. The older translations are so difficult compared to modern The Message or NIV translations.

[Doc]

Seriously, I have read modern translations of Josephus, Eusebius and Rumi. The old translations are almost inpenetrable but the new ones are incredibly clear.

I am certainly open to suggestions. SO if you have the time by all means -- Thanks

Look at the bible. The older translations are so difficult compared to modern The Message or NIV translations.

Some new translations of the bible were pretty bad.

[Apollonius]

I was lucky. When I was in school I had some great teachers. I still remember some of the books we read through:


High School 12th grade literature class:

Dante - Divine Comedy: Hell, Purgatory ; Shakespeare - MacBeth, Othello ; John Buyan - The Pilgrim's Progress ; William Golding - Lord of the Flies ;


You might see a pattern there. As you can see, my teacher was very old school. Her warnings didn't have much effect on me, though, at least until about thirty years too late.



Second year at university I took a course on epic poetry.


We studied the Pentateuch, the Iliad, the Aeneid, Beowulf, and Paradise Lost .



... and a course on the modern novel where we read through:

Balzac - Le Père Goriot ; Dickens - Hard Times ; Stendahl - La Chartreuse de Parme ; Flaubert - Sentimental Education ; Tolstoy - The Cossacks ; Zola - Germinal

[Doc]

I was lucky. When I was in school I had some great teachers. I still remember some of the books we read through:


High School 12th grade literature class:

Dante - Divine Comedy: Hell, Purgatory ; Shakespeare - MacBeth, Othello ; John Buyan - The Pilgrim's Progress ; William Golding - Lord of the Flies ;


You might see a pattern there. As you can see, my teacher was very old school. Her warnings didn't have much effect on me, though, at least until about thirty years too late.



Second year at university I took a course on epic poetry.


We studied the Pentateuch, the Iliad, the Aeneid, Beowulf, and Paradise Lost .



... and a course on the modern novel where we read through:

Balzac - Le Père Goriot ; Dickens - Hard Times ; Stendahl - La Chartreuse de Parme ; Flaubert - Sentimental Education ; Tolstoy - The Cossacks ; Zola - Germinal

Regretfully my High school lit was all American lit and university lit was not much more than old English and American short stories.