Cryptozoology

[Simple Minded]

I never took Bigfoot to have that type of diet but it just goes to show how Bigfoot-ignorant I am!

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hanging with the Snowflakes is stunting your intellectual growth....

The immediate killer of the Bigfoot myth is not the absence of the creature or even the logistics of how it gets along...

...it's its lack of inquisitiveness. I can buy the argument that it is reasonably intelligent, that its a small population divided into small units, that it's more retiring than your average monkey...etc...

But which other primate is reported to be so incurious? That doesn't sound like primate behavior to me.

Almost every bigfoot story should go, "We were walking through a seldom travelled part of the woods and we came across bigfoot who stopped in his tracks and observed us." Sometimes the bigfoot would be a bit cautious or timid, other times more confident or friendly or aggressive or whatever...but primate just don't walk away from novel things like that. Humans don't, chimps don't, gorillas and orangutan don't. What makes bigfoot special?

Instead the just-so story is that Bigfoot gets to be all knowing about the ways of humans-- so wise enough to avoid us as much as possible--

but also so rare of a thing that its an event when one comes across one...which means bigfoot is just as unfamiliar with humans as we are with bigfooters. So why would he be avoiding us? And at his body height/weight?

Are you Sirius, why would Bigfoot avoid humans at all costs? Same reason my and noddy are misanthropes! Do you actually know any humans?

On a camping trip, some of our fellow OTNOTers encounter a Bigfoot:

Zack Morris: "Let me tell you about Climate Change..... and white privelge...."
Mr. Perfect: "Let me tell you about democrats....."
HP: "Let me tell you about Persia..... and America....."
Bigfoot: "You wankers are still wondering if bears shite in woods and you expect me to intellectually engage you people...."

[Simple Minded]

The fun part about these conversations (Bigfoot, UFO's, Ghosts, Gods, Demons, cryptoids, etc.) is, it is obvious when someone has so little interest in a subject, that they haven't spent even a single hour looking into it. Then on the other side are those who are religiously obsessed.

On. a motorcycle site I visit, there is a similar conversation about UFO's.

Some know Bigfoot is not an ape, but a different species of human. Some know he is an ape. Some know he is an ET, others, extra dimensional, spiritual creatures, time traveler, etc.

One of those phenomena that seems to satisfy some psychological need in humans. Dating back to antiquity. Very similar to politics and religion, in that our team is the right one. Observer defines the observed phenomena.

I suspect as people get ever more addicted to electronics, large tracts of wilderness will become ever more mysterious and unknowable.

Which is fine with me.

[Simple Minded]

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.8147124 ... a=!3m1!1e3

that and Oklahoma having enough primal forest to sustain an undetected population of anything bigger than a cat.

... im sorry, Ill leave this conversation again

don't leave! But if you ever get the chance to visit the US, even if it is just a 30,000 ft flyover, you should do so.

[Simple Minded]

Well, if he's feasting on humans, maybe the forest is the last place to look-- has anyone checked the apartment blocs?

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I still am curious about the odds of coming across the last of a creature.

the big cities are toooo dangerous, Bigfoot would be viewed as a racist, republican, deplorable.

Check out David Paulides, John Bindernagle, or Jeffery Meldrum's books some time. Or for a short primer, The Locals by Thom Powell is fun.

If you want proof, you'll be disappointed. But entertaining, to me at least.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Proof is always disappointing. Who needs it!?!?

I don't want proof or a good story...I'm looking for a good rule-of-thumb.

noddy's space problem is a good one, but considering how many gorillas you can satisfactorily cram into a small area without outright depressing them, I don't think its so definitive...at least pre-industry and deforestation. (And ignoring the medium to long term population size problems). It's a sort of a "squint and maybe I could see in some very limited fashion" kinda thing.

So my regulation that a primate is going to act within the range of behaviors shown in other primate is the one I'd go with; and that does ol'Bigfoot in before he even get around to the proof 'splaining himself.

When all the bigfoot stories have bigfoot acting more like an ursidae, then maybe we should be filling in the blanks with bears.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Then you add the link between bears and reincarnation in a lot of the old Indian stories and then some of those bigfoot stories start sounding like superstitious reflections on what happens when something goes wrong with reincarnation.

Bigfoots as spirits trapped betwixt and between...maybe as a punishment or as the result of a poorly performed ritual.

It starts resembling some of the 19th century ghost stories (this person could not pass over because of some sort of trauma or complex series of events).

When it comes to Nepal/Tibetan Buddhism and the Yeti I wonder about a similar connection off the bat...but I don't know anything about it.

[noddy]

grizzly bears are just as cool as bigfoot, the only difference is novelty.

[Simple Minded]

grizzly bears are just as cool as bigfoot, the only difference is novelty.

grizzly bears have Bigfoot issues cause they lack opposable thumbs.... sucks to get a couple rungs behind on the evolutionary ladder.....

[Simple Minded]

Proof is always disappointing. Who needs it!?!?

I don't want proof or a good story...I'm looking for a good rule-of-thumb.

noddy's space problem is a good one, but considering how many gorillas you can satisfactorily cram into a small area without outright depressing them, I don't think its so definitive...at least pre-industry and deforestation. (And ignoring the medium to long term population size problems). It's a sort of a "squint and maybe I could see in some very limited fashion" kinda thing.

So my regulation that a primate is going to act within the range of behaviors shown in other primate is the one I'd go with; and that does ol'Bigfoot in before he even get around to the proof 'splaining himself.

When all the bigfoot stories have bigfoot acting more like an ursidae, then maybe we should be filling in the blanks with bears.

Here you go. Napster: http://www.bigfootencounters.com/classics/classics.htm

Your casting a pretty wide net. Care to post links to the best source material you have encountered in your vast research? No successful dunken sexual conquest stories please!

This am I was thinking, "Hmmm me reading Napster's and noddy's posts about Bigfoot, probably has me thinking similar things as noddy and Napster do when reading my posts about video games and musical cords!".

As soon as musical cords start leaving tracks in the snow, we'll all be singing from the same Hymn (Her?) book?

Bigfoots are to Grizzly Bears as Banjos are to Guitars....

[Simple Minded]

Here go Napster, I currently live on the edge of Bedford County VA.

Sightings in Bedford County, and Amherst County happen from time to time.

One of my neighbor's relatives has had several encounters........ might be something in the ground water?

https://bigfootswilderness.com/a-terrif ... encounter/

[noddy]

This am I was thinking, "Hmmm me reading Napster's and noddy's posts about Bigfoot, probably has me thinking similar things as noddy and Napster do when reading my posts about video games and musical cords!".

As soon as musical cords start leaving tracks in the snow, we'll all be singing from the same Hymn (Her?) book?

Bigfoots are to Grizzly Bears as Banjos are to Guitars....

hey, I of course no nothing about what you have seen or not seen in the American forests

I dont honestly believe their is enough real wilderness left to hide a creature of this size in it.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

As soon as musical cords start leaving tracks in the snow...

...then you know its the drugs.

===============

The problem is that nothing can be said about it.

Nothing about these bigfoot stories follows any normal regulative principles about how we talk about animals.

Habitat, mating, diet, lifespan, samples of bone/shedding/waste samples...how 'bout actual footprints?

A seven to ten foot creature who draws no attention to himself, lives like a chipmunk, strategizes on par with humans, is both solitary and a pack animal depending on the story.

Oh! And he both lumbers around and is one of the most agile animals its size.

Whatever people are coming across, it's all over the map in how it compared to all the animals we know on record.

[Simple Minded]

This am I was thinking, "Hmmm me reading Napster's and noddy's posts about Bigfoot, probably has me thinking similar things as noddy and Napster do when reading my posts about video games and musical cords!".

As soon as musical cords start leaving tracks in the snow, we'll all be singing from the same Hymn (Her?) book?

Bigfoots are to Grizzly Bears as Banjos are to Guitars....

hey, I of course no nothing about what you have seen or not seen in the American forests

I dont honestly believe their is enough real wilderness left to hide a creature of this size in it.

That is an honest opinion which I respect. and of course it is possible that all the people who claim to have had sightings are lying, mistaken, or insane. So all source material might be worthless.

But very interesting IMSMO to read or talk to someone who says "For decades I said, I've spent my whole life outdoors and in the woods, and I've always said Bigfoot was BS. Then one day....." Especially if they have a physical reaction while recalling the tale.

The other fascinating aspect is those who always assumed it was a primate, until they saw it, they changed their opinion to thinking it is another species of human.

Most don't realize the vastness of undeveloped land in the US, nor that a lot of it is rainforest (not jungle) that regenerates quickly. No hunter who wants meat hunts in old growth. 5-50 year old growth is where the cover is.

If nothing else, it is good campfire material. Unlimited lore, myth, and speculation. Not much fun for "experts" I suppose, but for us wonderers, it is entertaining. Not much different than reading science fiction I suppose.

[Simple Minded]

As soon as musical cords start leaving tracks in the snow...

...then you know its the drugs.

===============

The problem is that nothing can be said about it.

Nothing about these bigfoot stories follows any normal regulative principles about how we talk about animals.

Habitat, mating, diet, lifespan, samples of bone/shedding/waste samples...how 'bout actual footprints?

A seven to ten foot creature who draws no attention to himself, lives like a chipmunk, strategizes on par with humans, is both solitary and a pack animal depending on the story.

Oh! And he both lumbers around and is one of the most agile animals its size.

Whatever people are coming across, it's all over the map in how it compared to all the animals we know on record.

When you are making these vague statements, what sources are you referencing? It sounds like you have only seen a few episodes of the Bigfoot TV show and have decided your research is complete.

I've enjoyed reading about this stuff for years, and I've yet to find what you previously called a "typical Bigfoot sighting."

It is a tough subject to take seriously, I agree, and not at all surprising that few would spend more than an hour looking into it. And like a lot of subjects (politics, religion, climate science, etc.) 90% of the preachers don't have any subject matter knowledge.

Human opinions vary, so asking Fred what he thinks of Democrats or Catholics might not result in much useful information. That's what makes stereotyping so much fun.

Anything that is vaguely paranormal is very close to a religious belief. Subjective as hell. Could very well be a psychological projection.

[noddy]

Most don't realize the vastness of undeveloped land in the US, nor that a lot of it is rainforest (not jungle) that regenerates quickly. No hunter who wants meat hunts in old growth. 5-50 year old growth is where the cover is.

you can crawl around in weeds with sticks up your nose and ants crawling up your crack for the hunt - but nobody lives like that.

If nothing else, it is good campfire material. Unlimited lore, myth, and speculation. Not much fun for "experts" I suppose, but for us wonderers, it is entertaining. Not much different than reading science fiction I suppose.

thats how i see it - the example link you posted reads as a campfire tale.

which is all good, I love the idea of bigfoot, I love the idea of mystery still left in this world but again, your version of undeveloped and mine are different.

imho proper wilderness exists on the centre west coast of america, and patches around west virginia and maine, the rest of the east coast is a carpark.

https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/#zoo ... FFFFFFFFFF

oklahoma, doesnt cut it.

[Simple Minded]

Most don't realize the vastness of undeveloped land in the US, nor that a lot of it is rainforest (not jungle) that regenerates quickly. No hunter who wants meat hunts in old growth. 5-50 year old growth is where the cover is.

If nothing else, it is good campfire material. Unlimited lore, myth, and speculation. Not much fun for "experts" I suppose, but for us wonderers, it is entertaining. Not much different than reading science fiction I suppose.

thats how i see it - the example link you posted reads as a campfire tale.

which is all good, I love the idea of bigfoot, I love the idea of mystery still left in this world but again, your version of undeveloped and mine are different.

imho proper wilderness exists on the centre west coast of america, and patches around west virginia and maine, the rest of the east coast is a carpark.

https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/#zoo ... FFFFFFFFFF

oklahoma, doesnt cut it.

That's a fair enough opinion from afar. The view from the ground is a bit different than from a computer monitor. But the view point from the ground is a tough sell over a computer monitor.

I'd bet most Americans have no idea of the diversity of wildlife that lives within 1 mile from their front door. Then of course is the assumption that humans are smarter than the Bigfoot they seek.

Bigfoot is a lot like UFO's, ghosts, religion in that there's a lot of inkblot there. They're all subjects that attract nut jobs, and no doubt 90+% of the cases can be written off. It's the <10% that are interesting. Due to the reflexive ridicule, no one knows what percentage of people who have sightings remain silent.

A member started a UFO thread on a motorcycle forum I visit. One guy morphed from "It's impossible to travel the distances involved! to "If they were here, there would be better pictures!" to "If they were here, they'd be so sophisticated that we wouldn't able to detect them!" in just a few posts. I couldn't resist so I opined that if I were them, my transportation would look like our airplanes and automobiles, and my drones would look like dogs, cats, horses, street lamps....

The gutters are always "No way, no how, impossible!" and "Hey that's my religion your insulting Pal!"

IMSMO, the interesting pespectives are those in between.

[Simple Minded]

imho proper wilderness exists on the centre west coast of america, and patches around west virginia and maine, the rest of the east coast is a carpark.

https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/#zoo ... FFFFFFFFFF

oklahoma, doesnt cut it.

I've been to the US, it doesn't look anything like that at night. Not even from 30,000 feet in an airplane.

[noddy]

imho proper wilderness exists on the centre west coast of america, and patches around west virginia and maine, the rest of the east coast is a carpark.

https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/#zoo ... FFFFFFFFFF

oklahoma, doesnt cut it.

I've been to the US, it doesn't look anything like that at night. Not even from 30,000 feet in an airplane.

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/NPP/ ... night.html

[noddy]

Most don't realize the vastness of undeveloped land in the US, nor that a lot of it is rainforest (not jungle) that regenerates quickly. No hunter who wants meat hunts in old growth. 5-50 year old growth is where the cover is.

If nothing else, it is good campfire material. Unlimited lore, myth, and speculation. Not much fun for "experts" I suppose, but for us wonderers, it is entertaining. Not much different than reading science fiction I suppose.

thats how i see it - the example link you posted reads as a campfire tale.

which is all good, I love the idea of bigfoot, I love the idea of mystery still left in this world but again, your version of undeveloped and mine are different.

imho proper wilderness exists on the centre west coast of america, and patches around west virginia and maine, the rest of the east coast is a carpark.

https://www.lightpollutionmap.info/#zoo ... FFFFFFFFFF

oklahoma, doesnt cut it.

That's a fair enough opinion from afar. The view from the ground is a bit different than from a computer monitor. But the view point from the ground is a tough sell over a computer monitor.

nar you are wrong

the view from the ground sees the forest, it doesnt see how much uninterrupted forest their is !

I grew up in a mining exploration family that travelled widely, Im actually pretty good at maps, spent many times heading off into the bush with them.

that map is not realistic for brightness, it represents how far you are way from street lights and towns causing a gentle glow in the sky.

I know you have lots of large thick forest, I also know its surrounded by farms and roads.

their is a plausible streak from Maine to West Virginia, I cant deny that.

I'd bet most Americans have no idea of the diversity of wildlife that lives within 1 mile from their front door. Then of course is the assumption that humans are smarter than the Bigfoot they seek.

of course not - but most of the country is littered with farms and not everyone is a city kid,.

Bigfoot is a lot like UFO's, ghosts, religion in that there's a lot of inkblot there. They're all subjects that attract nut jobs, and no doubt 90+% of the cases can be written off. It's the <10% that are interesting. Due to the reflexive ridicule, no one knows what percentage of people who have sightings remain silent.

A member started a UFO thread on a motorcycle forum I visit. One guy morphed from "It's impossible to travel the distances involved! to "If they were here, there would be better pictures!" to "If they were here, they'd be so sophisticated that we wouldn't able to detect them!" in just a few posts. I couldn't resist so I opined that if I were them, my transportation would look like our airplanes and automobiles, and my drones would look like dogs, cats, horses, street lamps....

The gutters are always "No way, no how, impossible!" and "Hey that's my religion your insulting Pal!"

IMSMO, the interesting pespectives are those in between.

yeh, as i said, Id love more mystery in this world but barring the deepest congo (tm) Id be shocked if a new large mammal showed up.

I do believe in aliens, I dont as yet believe they are on the earth probing our orifices.

[Simple Minded]

Well differences of opinion are what make a horse race. Most in the US think NY State is an urban state. Even though I grew up there, I'm still suprised by how white open it is when I fly over it.

Can't tell that to someone from below the Mason-Dixon Line though......

I hope they are out there, but realize the odds are against it. I think the biggest difference between our opinions are I would not be surprised if one day "they" are deemed to exist. Probably a predilection due to my past reading. Those with no interest in a topic, don't read about it, so there's no reason to ponder it.

Then again, based on how many people are certifiably insane on a variety of more mundane topics (like climate change)..... doubting every opinion every human ever utters seems reasonable and healthy.

To me, the fascination is three fold, the wonderment of the unknown, the certainty of those who weren't present to witness the event that the witness is wrong, and the testimony of the formerly doubting witness that the sighting was a life changing shock.

Cool stuff. Fun material to use to push buttons.

[noddy]

half of it is being contrary for the sake of argument, Im largely ambivilent to all these mystery type things, Id love to be wrong.

the east coast of america is an amazing looking place, id love to see it one day, when its above 60F.

lots of thick forest, it does sustain bears, so it is all possible.

still, no doubting their is a shitload of people there as well, and a few centuries of loggers, miners, hunters and bushwalkers.

[Simple Minded]

half of it is being contrary for the sake of argument, Im largely ambivilent to all these mystery type things, Id love to be wrong.

the east coast of america is an amazing looking place, id love to see it one day, when its above 60F.

lots of thick forest, it does sustain bears, so it is all possible.

still, no doubting their is a shitload of people there as well, and a few centuries of loggers, miners, hunters and bushwalkers.

No problem Bro, I appreciate you playing the game! I suspect you have about the same amount of time invested in reading about Bigfoot as I do in playing video games or watching Cricket matches. 1-4 hours max total over a lifetime? Am I close?

Those are understandable opinions. Even those living in Suburbia has no idea what is living in their backyards, unless it is actively seeking them out for feeding puposes. I suspect most have never even seen common animals such as skunk, opossums, or bobcats.

Bears aren't too bright, slow moving, clumsy, not at all stealthy, and not really people adverse, yet few people notice them until they knock over their trash cans.

Thankfully, our forests are probably visited less by humans than ever before in history due to modern electronics and fear of ticks and sweating. All my relatives in NY say it is actually rare to hear gunshots on opening day of deer season for the last few years.

If Bigfoot is out there, they are probably enjoying more green buffer between them and the humans now than in decades past.

The recent wearing of COVID masks is just another stealth trick Bigfoots employ to blend into the background. Tough to outwit those bastards!

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Bona fides for bigfoot- that's going right on the CV.

Much of it was a lifetime ago, and without getting too involved, I had a work friend who was an avid hobbyist of cryptozoological material. Any book which passed through his hands came to me second-hand. On top of that, he prattled on endlessly about it. His specific interests were not bigfoot however, he was much more invested in deep ocean creatures and the various bat species in Central and South America.

His opinion of bigfoot was more in line with noddy's, as space issue except for a few small pockets where one can squint at the situation and say, "yeah, this could maybe work." Also like noddy mentioned, he believed if we were to find a new simian creature its going to be deep in African...maybe Amazonian spaces far outside the permanent industrialized/farmlands of humans.

I found out then, as now, the topic is as generally boring to me as I find regular zoology. That doesn't mean I didn't absorb the material.

[Simple Minded]

Bona fides for bigfoot- that's going right on the CV.

Much of it was a lifetime ago, and without getting too involved, I had a work friend who was an avid hobbyist of cryptozoological material. Any book which passed through his hands came to me second-hand. On top of that, he prattled on endlessly about it. His specific interests were not bigfoot however, he was much more invested in deep ocean creatures and the various bat species in Central and South America.

His opinion of bigfoot was more in line with noddy's, as space issue except for a few small pockets where one can squint at the situation and say, "yeah, this could maybe work." Also like noddy mentioned, he believed if we were to find a new simian creature its going to be deep in African...maybe Amazonian spaces far outside the permanent industrialized/farmlands of humans.

I found out then, as now, the topic is as generally boring to me as I find regular zoology. That doesn't mean I didn't absorb the material.

That's understandable. As I have said before, 90% of source material/sightings can be dismissed out of hand. Similar to ghosts, UFO's or religous opinions. The other 10% can make one wonder. The fascinating part, IMSMO, secondary to the observations themselves, is the two true believer enclaves on both ends. Team 0% and Team 100% both employ impressive mental gymnastics to preserve their religious canons.

If Bigfoot isn't a biological primate, or another species of human, as a lot of Native American tribes believe, there is some strange primal memory, or bizarre psychological projection in play. Not just a US/Canadian phenomena.

Then again, the human mind has an infinite capacity for self-delusion. Skepticism of everything not in one's own direct experience is healthy.

Art Bell's radio show "Coast to coast AM" had some interesting guests, except a lot of the more zealous types didn't know how to stop talking when they were ahead. Hard selling one's belief never seems to come across well. Three maybe points, rather than three maybes, four no ways, and three not a chance in Hell arguments would build some credibility.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Yeah that 10% does make one wonder- wonder why nothing about these stories track with what we know about monkey-creatures or large mammals or ecosystems; animal behavior; trophy hunting...

And part of that 10%, the the witness testimony posted here is, like noddy said, laid out as a campfire story-- I'd say the structure is more morality tale. Bigfoot is watching baseball from the woods and knows all about the three strike rule and collectively has the restraint saints would dream of.

And where are all these trees which can handle the weight of an 7-10' tall creature swinging through them.