On conservative and libertarian stupidity

[Parodite]

Old labels are disappearing and new ones emerge, supposedly.

For instance intellectuals with differing opinions united under a new ad hoc and somewhat tongue in cheak label called the Intellectual Dark Web with Ben Shapiro, Eric and Bret Weinstein, Jordan Peterson, Douglas Murray, Dave Rubin and others. Their main worry is free speech and civil discourse being under threat and the politicizing of science and universities under regressive leftist pressures.

That labels and identity matter still a whole lot also among these free thinking knights of the IDW is apparent when you watch the videos of the Rubin Report. In all of his interviews he questions the labels and wonders what hat he and his guest have put on lately, or maybe should put on, if and what overlap exists etc. Are you a conservative? Or more a libertarian? Or still more of a classical liberal?

There is an irony here, that although Dave Rubin has become more of a libertarian/classical liberal hybrid and abhores identity politics for very good reasons, he is still a junky of its terminologies and can't help himself toying around with these GROUP-labels and making sure he wears the right group-hat. His best fit appears to be a group-hat that wants to communicate the idea that the individual is holy.. the corner stone of everything.

The end of group-labels, identity politics and promoting the value of each individual to me means that in changing times and circumstances you talk politics issue-based and often per issue sensitive to some devilish details hiding in dusty corners. Not only individual humans beings matter... also individual issues matter more than in a less complex and less fast changing reality in the past.

IMO there are still many libertarian conservatives stuck in dogma and phraseology starting to talk stupid. Just one example:

q3bsvUGLbAo

I could make an easy and similar argument that libertarian conservatism equals totalitarianism and brutal dictatorship in the end.

[Simple Minded]

Amen Bro. Hence my endless fascination with group identities, labels, prejudices, etc. Lots of income is made with perpetually ephemeral labels.

It's a virtual salad bowl of flux out there. We need to abandon the internet and carve some of these in stone just so they will exist long enough for a significant portion of the participants to grasp.

You Yurps are old hands at this game. We Yanks are still struggling to define Black and White or Male and Female. It's only racists and sexists who think differences exist or are noticeable.

Are you victim or oppressor? YOU DON'T GET TO CHOOSE! You can only act out the role. What would be more unfair than self-definition? Having no say in your destiny is the only way to make life fair!

Like I told Mr. Perfect:

"Absolutely right Mr. P, but "you only get to define yourself" inside your own head.

Once outside your own head, it is up to the observer to decide which brush "they" want to use to tar and feather you.
.....
Beauty as well as social justice is in the eye of the beholder. Luckily "they" can't f**k with our sense of self-righteousness!"

[Simple Minded]

https://www.fox.com/watch/4e9ac96523b45 ... 4f775facb/

[Mr. Perfect]

You have to decide if words mean things when getting into this.

Or did words used to mean things.

[Mr. Perfect]

I'm in the "used to" mean something.

You used to be able to draw a straight line from classical liberals of the American revolution and rugged individual conservatives that peaked with Reagan. Liberals became Ted Kennedy and FDR, who have almost no relation to Washington and Jefferson.

These days nationalism is pegged with nazism, while libertarians big issue is LBGT and staying out of the middle east. Dumbing down, IMO, from the screecher/name callers.

It was more helpful when these words were defined, for sure. Because you can change the words but the ideas remain the same, and will have the same outcome. You can repackage socialism a thousand times and it will always work the same.

You can say free beer is a right, but somehow beer doesn't come into existence without paying someone to make it.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

".....The Enlightenment, for all its virtues, brought about a cultural shift in orientation. Individuals from formerly stable and morally upright cultures were increasingly encouraged to question every settled value; as Kant put it, to have the “courage to use (one’s) own understanding.”....."

http://politicalcritique.org/world/2018 ... product-1/

[Simple Minded]

Sounds like a mixture of the timeless generation gap (successive generations define words differently), and once everyone has a microphone, rather than just the singular authority who is correct by definition, things get messy.

Smaller groups = more conformity. More voices = more varied opinions. Today's extreme becomes tomorrow's normal.

As the old saying goes "A thousand monks, a thousand religions."

[noddy]

I think its largely true of modern atheists.

we grew up in worlds of constant change and the choas of societies promises being broken every couple of election cycles , you dont really have much choice but to pay attention to whats going on around you and making it up as you go along.

good luck believing in the crap that comes of the authorities mouths, thats a one way trip to becoming an angry depressed fellow.

[Mr. Perfect]

Modern atheist here, Ayn Rand believed in objective truths and no matter how many years go by she seems to be right.

asery3UeBj4

[Mr. Perfect]

It's hard to find this guy stupid. Really pleasant content.

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[Parodite]

I am starting a "Just say Moo!!" campaign I want to spend all my days hanging out with my friends!!

This perception of universal basic income is caused by retard leftists when they promote the idea. As when they take up social justice, which should be a discussion about social cohesion, fairness and responsibility.

UBI of course is not free. Think of it as an insurance against poverty, usually called social security. It can work like any insurance where many people decide to put their money collectively into a fund and will be refunded when there is an emergency.

Now of course, the average nutty libertarian-conservative uses the argument of taxes being theft; A) decides to pick pocket the money of B) to give it to C). The idea of entirely voluntarily paying taxes to causes one personally agrees with and an amount one is ok with.. is a very noble idea but will never work in any known form of society commonly know as a democratic nation state. It can work in churches and clubs.. not much else.

Those who abhor forced taxation considering all forms of it as theft, in my view don't deserve police protection, nor a fair trial in court, nor fire fighters to come and save your house and livelihood. They especially don't deserve the right to vote because the democratic process always put people in power who represent a majority that pushes their decisions through the throats of the minorities who had different opinions.

A harder nut to crack are the arguments in favor of UBI made by people like Milton Friedman. He was a social libertarian and hard core free market capitalist who favored a UBI.

[Mr. Perfect]

There is a little bit of problem there. Basic government services as a justification for taxation is problematic, because Western governments in the last 100 years have grown 75% larger than any moral basis for government. Once you justify taxation there is no limit on it.

If libertarians have to justify no taxation or be deprived of police protection then socialists have to explain the moral limits of taxation or I will stay out of their system.

[Mr. Perfect]

So what is the moral limit of taxation.

[Simple Minded]

This perception of universal basic income is caused by retard leftists when they promote the idea. As when they take up social justice, which should be a discussion about social cohesion, fairness and responsibility.

UBI of course is not free. Think of it as an insurance against poverty, usually called social security. It can work like any insurance where many people decide to put their money collectively into a fund and will be refunded when there is an emergency.

Now of course, the average nutty libertarian-conservative uses the argument of taxes being theft; A) decides to pick pocket the money of B) to give it to C). The idea of entirely voluntarily paying taxes to causes one personally agrees with and an amount one is ok with.. is a very noble idea but will never work in any known form of society commonly know as a democratic nation state. It can work in churches and clubs.. not much else.

Those who abhor forced taxation considering all forms of it as theft, in my view don't deserve police protection, nor a fair trial in court, nor fire fighters to come and save your house and livelihood. They especially don't deserve the right to vote because the democratic process always put people in power who represent a majority that pushes their decisions through the throats of the minorities who had different opinions.

A harder nut to crack are the arguments in favor of UBI made by people like Milton Friedman. He was a social libertarian and hard core free market capitalist who favored a UBI.

Theoretically, UBI is possible, as is Social Security, Universal Health Care, and paying for roads with gasoline taxes.

However most who want to discuss UBI, or Universal Health Care (for that matter) seem to deliberately avoid discussing such pesky aspects of reality such as details and costs. The advocates sound like Christians "who know" they are getting into Heaven, but when you ask them about the dimensions of the Pearly Gates, they go catatonic. Kinda like encountering a carpenter with out a tape measure, or a climate scientist who gets fuzzy on measurement accuracy.

Having lunch the other day with a buddy who is in favor of Universal Health Care, and after he brought out the subject, I asked "But every single person is a potentially infinite cost user of health care services, but no single person is a potential infinite payer of health care services. How do you deal with that?" He got quiet. So I continued "And that is the first question to be answered before the discussion can progress past the level of fantasy."

Fun discussions, especially when the messy aspects of reality are avoid by the idealists. Faith rocks cause it is fun, rewarding, and infinitely flexible.

[Parodite]

Theoretically, UBI is possible, as is Social Security, Universal Health Care, and paying for roads with gasoline taxes.

However most who want to discuss UBI, or Universal Health Care (for that matter) seem to deliberately avoid discussing such pesky aspects of reality such as details and costs. The advocates sound like Christians "who know" they are getting into Heaven, but when you ask them about the dimensions of the Pearly Gates, they go catatonic. Kinda like encountering a carpenter with out a tape measure, or a climate scientist who gets fuzzy on measurement accuracy.

In total agreement! Social security/UBI is like any other political issue where taxpayer money is being taken and spent on things; on what and how much of it is a never ending fight and negotiation.

I think that because there is no workable alternative to a democratic process - which means there will always be taxpayer money "stolen" from people who would rather have payed less taxes and/or on other things - one has to be very careful with taxes. Government spending is cancerous by nature due to the lack of immediate market competition, and the increasing complexity of society doesn't help either. The "theft" aspect is always a reality.

For instance Trumps tax cuts are good short term, but it is not payed for by lowering government expenses which would be the preferred way to do it. Instead, it is payed for with borrowed money (with gvt bonds if i'm correct) ie "stolen" from the future, with the assumption that once the economy is strong it can be payed back. But then you'd have to raise taxes and interest rates again. The bill always comes...no free lunch here either.

Because all gvts are debt junkies.. I sometimes think why not put something in the constitution about a gvt debt ceiling as a percentage of GDP and maybe some other variables and operators. A ceiling that can only be broken during wartime or other existential threats. And a law that forbids tax payer money being used to bail out banks who messed up.

Having lunch the other day with a buddy who is in favor of Universal Health Care, and after he brought out the subject, I asked "But every single person is a potentially infinite cost user of health care services, but no single person is a potential infinite payer of health care services. How do you deal with that?" He got quiet. So I continued "And that is the first question to be answered before the discussion can progress past the level of fantasy."

Fun discussions, especially when the messy aspects of reality are avoid by the idealists. Faith rocks cause it is fun, rewarding, and infinitely flexible.

Democracy becomes a rather empty shell when voters can't, or don't want to make informed decisions. Journalism also fails; how much brain power and man-hours are wasted by the MSM on gossip and totally irrelevant bullsh*t! While corporate social media tech and their political allies are taking over as we speak. More censorship and more mental derangement syndromes are expected by the Gods.

[Simple Minded]

Agreed Paradite. "We" is a very messy concept. In reality, the concepts of "me" and "mine" are always getting in the way.

In the discussion world, it's always "them" who foil our superior ideology.

My niece railed against her rich clients not giving more to the poor. I replied, "Yes, but that is true of everyone, even you and I."
She disagreed and the discussion continued.

A few months later she announces that she has "worn out" Brooklyn and is moving to Manhattan. Her rent would increase from $800/month to $3500/month. I pointed out that she could stay in Brooklyn and donate $2700 a month to the poor and therefore be "better" than her rich clients. She replied "But it's my money!"

[Doc]

I am starting a "Just say Moo!!" campaign I want to spend all my days hanging out with my friends!!

This perception of universal basic income is caused by retard leftists when they promote the idea. As when they take up social justice, which should be a discussion about social cohesion, fairness and responsibility.

UBI of course is not free. Think of it as an insurance against poverty, usually called social security. It can work like any insurance where many people decide to put their money collectively into a fund and will be refunded when there is an emergency.

Now of course, the average nutty libertarian-conservative uses the argument of taxes being theft; A) decides to pick pocket the money of B) to give it to C). The idea of entirely voluntarily paying taxes to causes one personally agrees with and an amount one is ok with.. is a very noble idea but will never work in any known form of society commonly know as a democratic nation state. It can work in churches and clubs.. not much else.

Those who abhor forced taxation considering all forms of it as theft, in my view don't deserve police protection, nor a fair trial in court, nor fire fighters to come and save your house and livelihood. They especially don't deserve the right to vote because the democratic process always put people in power who represent a majority that pushes their decisions through the throats of the minorities who had different opinions.

A harder nut to crack are the arguments in favor of UBI made by people like Milton Friedman. He was a social libertarian and hard core free market capitalist who favored a UBI.

Cows spend their lives waiting for cattle cars to take them to the slaughter house. But hey that is just the price to pay for "COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD" Sooner or later the cattle cars are going to show up for someone. At that point there is no escaping the **Facts**

The meme is a response to this:

kikzjTfos0s

He has some good points and some bad points.

Parodite on volunteering Many years ago I was helping my little brother get his last badge to achieve eagle scout. It was for public service in a park. When I took him to take to the park ranger he took me aside and said " Do only enough hours of work for him to get the badge because we have more people volunteering than we have things for them to do"

[noddy]

the biggest argument against UBI is that basic inflation will soak up whatever difference it creates over current baseline social security - basics like rent and food will quickly adjust to suit.

the only reason i have a soft spot for it is that is we are also then meant to sack 2/3 of the government workers who become redundant as everyone just gets their part of the shared pool of existing taxes.

that figure is based off the reality of 2/3 of current social security money being spent on admin, only 1/3 makes it out to the poor.

i doubt we will ever get that version of it, so meh.

[noddy]

Having lunch the other day with a buddy who is in favor of Universal Health Care, and after he brought out the subject, I asked "But every single person is a potentially infinite cost user of health care services, but no single person is a potential infinite payer of health care services. How do you deal with that?" He got quiet. So I continued "And that is the first question to be answered before the discussion can progress past the level of fantasy."

.

we have medicare - you deal with that the same as in private hospitals, via triage.

folks die before the end of the queue if its too long, as always.

the argument against medicare is that longer lifespans and lower employment levels is the perfect storm of less resources being spread thinner so for both public and private the solution to that is letting people die.

its not like private has some magic pool of extra money that means you can take more than you give - even when its more efficient and doesnt distort prices as much, its still got the same demographic and economic problems all of our societies face.

insurance only works when people take less than they give, and the only way to avoid that basic fact is via endless growth, otherwise its just another ponzi with a nasty shock for the bottom of the pyramid.

[Simple Minded]

that figure is based off the reality of 2/3 of current social security money being spent on admin, only 1/3 makes it out to the poor.

i doubt we will ever get that version of it, so meh.

yep. every institution has administrative and enforcement costs. the magical thinking that Big Brother can tax away $3x to distribute $1x and there will be no negative consequences is pure fantasy. that's why advocates never float numbers, just wishful dreaming.

[Simple Minded]

Having lunch the other day with a buddy who is in favor of Universal Health Care, and after he brought out the subject, I asked "But every single person is a potentially infinite cost user of health care services, but no single person is a potential infinite payer of health care services. How do you deal with that?" He got quiet. So I continued "And that is the first question to be answered before the discussion can progress past the level of fantasy."

.

we have medicare - you deal with that the same as in private hospitals, via triage.

folks die before the end of the queue if its too long, as always.

the argument against medicare is that longer lifespans and lower employment levels is the perfect storm of less resources being spread thinner so for both public and private the solution to that is letting people die.

its not like private has some magic pool of extra money that means you can take more than you give - even when its more efficient and doesnt distort prices as much, its still got the same demographic and economic problems all of our societies face.

insurance only works when people take less than they give, and the only way to avoid that basic fact is via endless growth, otherwise its just another ponzi with a nasty shock for the bottom of the pyramid.

also true. magic only exists in fantasyland.

people like the voluntary aspect of deciding how and where to spend their money until the $ totals don't work out in their favor. then they talk about the rights they have to take other people's money.

the buddy I was having lunch with lives in another country with much higher costs of living and massive taxes. he spends a lot of time when he is here buying stuff and shipping it back home to avoid "paying his fair share" (my term) of local taxes. he admits it and is ok with his actions being contrary to his ideals.

same with the europeans I have worked with, who are over here on long term work assignments. socialism is cool for discussing the concept of "us" ......... but when it is "my" money and the stuff you want is on the shelves....

"free" college and medical are great..... but when everything you buy is cheaper than the items that pay for the "free stuff," human behavior is very consistent.

suddenly they like the bigger houses and cars with 8 cylinder engines.

the fascinating thing to see is if Universal Health Care ever does become reality, will fat people and old people be hunted down in the streets like vampires? all it would take would be the creation of a new religion.....

and don't forget the trust factor in administrative competence. turn over health care to the same people who manage the post office instead of the doctors I know? really?

[Typhoon]

The Spectator | Joining the Twitchfork mob is not the answer

"Twitchfork mob" +1

Added to my vocabulary.

[Typhoon]

. . .

the fascinating thing to see is if Universal Health Care ever does become reality, will fat people and old people be hunted down in the streets like vampires? all it would take would be the creation of a new religion.....

An outsider perspective.

Japan, along with many OECD nations, has a system that mostly qualifies as Universal Health Care.

Despite this, there is no collective hunting of either the elderly, now 1/4 of the population, or the obese, who are rare.

Rather, Japan has the highest life expectancy.

Having a healthy population is perceived as a national common good.

and don't forget the trust factor in administrative competence. turn over health care to the same people who manage the post office instead of the doctors I know? really?

[Japan] Hospitals, by law, must be run as non-profit and be managed by physicians. For-profit corporations are not allowed to own or operate hospitals. Clinics must be owned and operated by physicians.

An enduring part of American culture/mythology is dislike and distrust of government.
At the lower levels of govt, this becomes a self-selecting and self-fulfilling reality.
On the other hand, I've always found it amusing how those at the higher levels of US govt and industry effortlessly move between the public and private sectors despite this widely held perception.

[Mr. Perfect]

An outsider perspective.

Japan, along with many OECD nations, has a system that mostly qualifies as Universal Health Care.

Despite this, there is no collective hunting of either the elderly, now 1/4 of the population, or the obese, who are rare.

At a debt to GDP of 200% it's just a matter of time. Since you don't have any fatties it will just be the old.

Rather, Japan has the highest life expectancy.

Having a healthy population is perceived as a national common good.

Lol.

[Mr. Perfect]

To lock it up on this government healthcare bit,

1. Private dollars are always allocated more efficiently than government dollars (see Japan, 200% debt to GDP), as most single payer nations accelerate toward bankruptcy. None of these countries can blame tax cuts for the rich or defense spending for their gigantic debts.

2. Almost all maladies of the US system are caused by government interference

3. The vulnerable in the US due to low income or pre-existing conditions are a single digit number of the populations, who can be addressed without socializing 15% of the economy.

4. Americans already deal with gubmint healthcare via Medicare, VA and have experience with gubmint bureaus of all types, and we have first hand experience with all of it. None of it would lend any desire to turn over the rest of healthcare to the government, as Medicare and the VA at varying times are between not very good and horrifying.

5. America became #1 in the world by leading OECD countries, not following. Arguing that other countries do it makes most Americans laugh.