Critiques of Atheism

[Mr. Perfect]

nope, im just not getting into your strawman stuff.

Do you know what a strawman is? It's when you misrepresent someone's argument.

I have not done that one time here. I've just asked you to justify your statement.

we have the culture of our parents and communities, we have the golden rule and introspection.

atheists believe that is what everyone has , varations on humanism which can be secular or religious.

Actually no, I've showed that some atheists believe very different things.

And I'm wondering how we would tell which of you are right.

[Mr. Perfect]

the is patently wrong and only makes sense if you ignore all the religions that arent your own.

Of course not. I'm a Christian and according to my research all of the major religions are very concerned with the basis of morality and the meaning of life, among other things.

Atheism has been unable to come up with anything though.

their are as many types of atheism as their are religion, their are as many types of religion as their are cultures and blends of cultures.

personally, the god i dont believe in is the god of the protestants.

What they all have in common is they are built on sand.

Eg, whenever I ask an atheist of any stripe to rebut Dawkins or Mao, I don't get a single sentence.

And everyone knows it. That's why so many people are horrified by atheism.

[Simple Minded]

on "atheism," "religion," and "stumps:"


D58LpHBnvsI

[noddy]

[Simple Minded]

To conceive the inconceivable,
to dream the impossible dream,
to imagine an island, inhabitants, and their actions,
to project one's own thoughts into the minds of other, almost humans,
TO BOLDLY GO WHERE NO MAN HAS GONE BEFORE!

I, as Grand Ruler of SimpleMindedStan, hereby declare the above text to be the definition of....... Stumpifying.

Let it be written. Let it be done!

If my intellect stumpifies you, don't blame me!

[Typhoon]

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump.
I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too!"

I said, "Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

[Typhoon]

Eg, whenever I ask an atheist of any stripe to rebut Dawkins, I don't get a single sentence.

Although I don't pay much attention to Dawkin's musings on religion, I have to wonder: do you also ask fundamentalist Christians to rebut biblical verse?

Mao

A good revolutionary, but an abject and deadly failure as a national leader.

On the other hand, one has the atheist Deng Xiaoping whose policies raised more people out of poverty than probably any other individual in history.

And everyone knows it. That's why so many people are horrified by atheism.

"I" << "many".

Hardly unique. Different Christian sects are fearful of each other. Different religions are fearful of each other.

The Jews are a nervous people, 2,000 years of Christian love has made them so.
~ A Jewish author who name escapes me at the moment.

[Simple Minded]

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump.
I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too!"

I said, "Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

Amen. Anyone who fears the Christians in the Bible Belt banding together to overtake/dominate their ideological opponents should look up "churches" in their local Yellow Pages.

Use Lynchburg, VA as an example. Eye opening.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump.
I said, "Don't do it!"
He said, "Nobody loves me."
I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes."
I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?"
He said, "A Christian."
I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?"
He said, "Protestant."
I said, "Me, too! What franchise?"
He said, "Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?"
He said, "Northern Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist."
I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region."
I said, "Me, too!"

I said, "Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?"
He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912."
I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

Amen. Anyone who fears the Christians in the Bible Belt banding together to overtake/dominate their ideological opponents should look up "churches" in their local Yellow Pages.

Use Lynchburg, VA as an example. Eye opening.

That's human tribal nature comin' through which serves as the ridgepole of most human religions. There are a few notable and major exceptions though if we were to choose to do it in a different way we should, but this is what we have and it's all we got........

[noddy]

No, not really. We can answer your question in great detail. It's very odd that you can't answer mine.

After thousands of years I can't find a single sentence written by atheists that explains how murder, arguably the most fundamental moral question, is wrong. Rather, we find disagreement.

Is murder moral, or immoral? And among the atheist arguments, how do we determine which one of you is right.

This is why I said you were stumped. 2 questions with just a little follow up. And total stumpage.

i feel like mentioning this is the number one reason their is niu atheists and an aggresive backlash against religion.

the complete and utter rejection of atheists having the ability for morality, the twisting of history so that anyone that isnt christian was a baby eater until they saw the light.

the legal system demanded you swear to the christian god, or you are a liar.

for those that grew up under those conditions, they where born into a state of moral warfare and live their lives accordingly...they fully understand that many christians dont believe they are capable of morality and they know they need to fight against that.

for me, not so much, the christians in my life are mostly borderline deist, anglican types so i never really had anything to backlash against.

[Mr. Perfect]

Eg, whenever I ask an atheist of any stripe to rebut Dawkins, I don't get a single sentence.

Although I don't pay much attention to Dawkin's musings on religion, I have to wonder: do you also ask fundamentalist Christians to rebut biblical verse?

Mao

A good revolutionary, but an abject and deadly failure as a national leader.

On the other hand, one has the atheist Deng Xiaoping whose policies raised more people out of poverty than probably any other individual in history.

And everyone knows it. That's why so many people are horrified by atheism.

"I" << "many".

Hardly unique. Different Christian sects are fearful of each other. Different religions are fearful of each other.

The Jews are a nervous people, 2,000 years of Christian love has made them so.
~ A Jewish author who name escapes me at the moment.

None of that addresses my statement. Poor dodge.

[Mr. Perfect]

i feel like mentioning this is the number one reason their is niu atheists and an aggresive backlash against religion.

I don't think so.

the complete and utter rejection of atheists having the ability for morality, the twisting of history so that anyone that isnt christian was a baby eater until they saw the light.

There have certainly been baby eating atheists, but that isn't the issue at hand

The issue at hand is can atheists make a moral construct. After thousands of years, the answer is no.

the legal system demanded you swear to the christian god, or you are a liar.

The legal system yes, but not the Christian system.

for those that grew up under those conditions, they where born into a state of moral warfare and live their lives accordingly...they fully understand that many christians dont believe they are capable of morality and they know they need to fight against that.

for me, not so much, the christians in my life are mostly borderline deist, anglican types so i never really had anything to backlash against.

I think that is more the norm.

[noddy]

The issue at hand is can atheists make a moral construct. After thousands of years, the answer is no.

nonsense, we have community standards and they are kept in check by introspection and the golden rule and they evolve as situations change and lessons are learnt.

thats all religious people have too, which is why all the different sub communities cant agree on the details and the interpretations without... introspection and the golden rule , applied through the community standards.

apparently, they also prefer threats of eternal hot pokers to back it up or something, im not sure, that bit doesnt make any sense to me.

[Mr. Perfect]

nonsense, we have community standards and they are kept in check by introspection and the golden rule and they evolve as situations change and lessons are learnt.

What do we do about those who reject community standard, the golden rule and aren't introspective. Sometimes they gain the upper hand.

thats all religious people have too, which is why all the different sub communities cant agree on the details and the interpretations without... introspection and the golden rule , applied through the community standards.

Not really. In reality, religious and non religous people have a history of getting it tremendously wrong. Sometimes when that happens people start saying "we seem to be getting it wrong", as if there is something nebulous out there called right and wrong, that doesn't seem care about our introspection, community standards, or sometimes even the golden rule.

apparently, they also prefer threats of eternal hot pokers to back it up or something, im not sure, that bit doesnt make any sense to me.

There is of course a lot more to it than that.

[Mr. Perfect]

For example, when we return to our original incident in the OP there is no community standard, the guy isn't introspective, and doesn't care about the golden rule.

So far you have framed this as the basis of your morality, and since it doesn't exist on the island, your morality doesn't exist on that island, and the murder isn't immoral by your standard.

Do you see why people might have a problem with that?

[Mr. Perfect]

What do we do about those who reject community standard, the golden rule and aren't introspective. Sometimes they gain the upper hand.

Good point. By this standard homosexuality used to be publicly denounced as unnatural for millenia.

Now by this same standard giving hormone blockers to 5 year olds is considered moral.

Which one is right? How would we know?

[noddy]

For example, when we return to our original incident in the OP there is no community standard, the guy isn't introspective, and doesn't care about the golden rule.

So far you have framed this as the basis of your morality, and since it doesn't exist on the island, your morality doesn't exist on that island, and the murder isn't immoral by your standard.

Do you see why people might have a problem with that?

why does that mean god exists ?

sure, it pisses me off that assholes get away with it but fantasies of hot pokers after they die means nothing to me.

[noddy]

What do we do about those who reject community standard, the golden rule and aren't introspective. Sometimes they gain the upper hand.

Good point. By this standard homosexuality used to be publicly denounced as unnatural for millenia.

Now by this same standard giving hormone blockers to 5 year olds is considered moral.

Which one is right? How would we know?

im not sure the bible is particularly eloquant on hormone supplements.

i suspect it takes a skilled priest alot of thought and introspection based on princples drilled into him from his communities traditional readings of the entire book.

[Mr. Perfect]

That's just a dodge. BTW the scripture says there are only 2 genders, so a poor dodge.

But no matter. Your stated moral construct produces wildly different answers. How do we tell which ones are correct.

[noddy]

its a giberrish question based on a crude lumping of all non religious people, from chinese all the way through to american progressives which makes no sense except in your head.

how can i know your abhramic dream is diferent to muslims, its all desert god lavender to me <-- this is how it reads .

[noddy]

im fully aware my cultural background is germanic paganism with a layer of jewish cult taking the rougher edges off.

my rules are quite common rules in the anglosphere, we all have much the same cultural backgrounds.

[Mr. Perfect]

why does that mean god exists ?

sure, it pisses me off that assholes get away with it but fantasies of hot pokers after they die means nothing to me.

We are getting close.

If you believe, which you do without saying, sine qua non that murder is immoral, you can only do so by appealing to a higher standard, or higher law. Yours and every other atheists' complete inability to create a moral construct after thousands of years of trying is evidence that despite the fact you can't explain it you believe in it anyway. Hot pokers are a cartoonish objection. You believe the same thing I do; that is murder is immoral by a higher law.

What is a higher law? It is invisible, intangible, yet you believe in it as much as you believe in the things you see with your own eyes. If it is real then that is the only explanation.

This is why I kept asking you how we tell which of you atheists is right, and why you kept avoiding the question. Because you know eventually you will have to appeal to a higher standard to win your argument against your fellow atheists, and at that point you will have discovered GOD. If there is a higher standard, a higher law, it is and can only be GOD.

...

So in the other thread we are talking about the highest God, a concept really about 6,000 years old, before N Tyson was a glint, this little group of proto Hebrews figured this out without his help or permission. There must a highest God, and that would be the only God with which you would have to do.

Add to that this little statement by an imaginary Nazarene carpenter about 2,000 years ago. "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment." It's as if this fictional character foresaw our very conversation 2,000 years ago. It's as if 2,000 years ago desert dwelling agrarians knew that not only if they murdered they would be subject to a higher law, but that they would also be accountable for everything they did, down to the words that came out of their mouths, to this law. Pretty amazing that they worked this out so many thousands of years ago. Before Sam Harris.

So with this in front of you, you can accept the flawless logic, or we can go back to asking you which of you atheists is right in your disparate proposals, and how would we tell.

By what standard.

[noddy]

that is rather abstract and would only "ring true" to me in a world that the vast magority of god believers agreed on the details.

once i have fallible priests, interpreting ancient translated documents, squabbling over all aspects of everything.. im back with my fellow humans, doing my best.

you keep dodging the fact that for folks with a bit of introspection, being an asshole is easy in the moment and yet does cause pain later on.
you keep dodging the fact that all over the world their are peaceful, thoughtful communities which have never heard of your god concept and yet do so out of respect for their fellow, living people.

morality and the reasons we choose to try harder or not, is much more complex than a higher power - some folks use the higher power as an excuse to be hideous.

[Mr. Perfect]

that is rather abstract and would only "ring true" to me in a world that the vast magority of god believers agreed on the details.

God's existence does not depend on his believers.

once i have fallible priests, interpreting ancient translated documents, squabbling over all aspects of everything.. im back with my fellow humans, doing my best.

Doing your best... what? At trying to follow morals? At trying to live morally? What kind of morals? Based on what? Community standards? Why are you abdicating your moral code to a vote by people in your town? Isn't this a far weightier subject.

J Peterson had a good one the other day, you sure live like you believe in God.

But the answer is, upon INTROSPECTION you will discover your morals are only worth anything if they are based on something HIGHER and CONSEQUENTIAL.

BTW I am not asking you to sign up with any fallible priests. Also I have full confidence you can interpret ancient documents all on your own, with a little reading and study.

The best way to go about it is to have God lead you around these issues.

you keep dodging the fact that for folks with a bit of introspection, being an asshole is easy in the moment and yet does cause pain later on.

Well this was my line of questioning so I wasn't dodging anything, I was focusing on what you had to deal with, and changing the subject doesn't make that go away.

you keep dodging the fact that all over the world their are peaceful, thoughtful communities which have never heard of your god concept and yet do so out of respect for their fellow, living people.

As I said before, that is entirely beside the point. Why people do what they do is a many layered thing, what I wanted to see is how atheists create their moral constructs. What I have found is after thousands of years they have failed in totality. If they persist they find higher laws and ultimately God, like the rest of us.

morality and the reasons we choose to try harder or not, is much more complex than a higher power - some folks use the higher power as an excuse to be hideous.

People use all kinds excuses to be hideous. We've seen murder committed in the name of everything, from animal rights to racial purity. However, human behavior has no bearing on the existence of God or morals. If they exist, they exist independently of those things. And if they exist they are pretty much the only things that matter.

[noddy]

Doing your best... what? At trying to follow morals? At trying to live morally? What kind of morals? Based on what? Community standards? Why are you abdicating your moral code to a vote by people in your town? Isn't this a far weightier subject.

the only people in "my community" are my parents and inner circle of friends and family, its basically the same people id turn to for discussion if i was religious anyway.

the wider australian community is neither her nor there to me and rarely moves in directions i think are healthy - my country is a social experiment for american exported globalism

upon INTROSPECTION you will discover your morals are only worth anything if they are based on something HIGHER and CONSEQUENTIAL.

nope. i need to live with myself and my sense of myself everyday, and thats hard enough work already.