Which God?

[Mr. Perfect]

I would be willing to explore this topic with interested people, as it comes up in atheist talking points from time to time. If people are interested.

Which god and/or gods were involved in the "intelligent design"?

The ancient Mesopotanian gods? The ancient Egyptian gods? The ancient Greek gods? The ancient Mayan and Aztec gods?
The Zoroastrian god? The Abrahamic god? The Hindu gods? The Shinto kami? Countless indigenous-folk gods?

Was an intelligent design committee appointed?
Meeting under the auspices of the UD, the United Deities.

Very quickly, if there is a God in the model of the omnipotent etc, then that disqualifies all of them to the best of my knowledge but the Biblical God and Allah.

Eg, greek "gods" are sort of similar to superheroes. They have superhuman power but not ultimate power. If higher beings exist I'm not sure why I would waste time with any who did not wield the highest powers.

Which is I think an ingenious lead in to the following WORD.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 5945&t=KJV

Thousands of years ago, the earliest Biblical figures began using a word that emerged in Hebrew as "Elyown", that being the "the most HIGH God", that is a god who held all power.

Interesting to me that 4000 years ago there was already an answer to this question, from goatherders and hunter gathers.

Let me know your thoughts.

[noddy]

i find the pagan gods make more sense.

more metaphorical, more obvious in their role as representatives of human qualities and spirit.

out of the vast pantheon you select the ones which focus on the aspects of humanity you most wish to grow.

[Simple Minded]

i find the pagan gods make more sense.

more metaphorical, more obvious in their role as representatives of human qualities and spirit.

out of the vast pantheon you select the ones which focus on the aspects of humanity you most wish to grow.

Bingo!

These discussions always remind me of the old quips:

- Disagreeing with someone about religion is like telling them their wife is ugly and their children are stupid.

- Even the seemingly immortal gods survive only as long as they are needed by mortal man.

It seems much less an issue of one finding God, than an issue of one creating a god/religion that suits one. Much more a chosen thought process, than an external deity acting upon you.

[Mr. Perfect]

Fascinating. I think I would be more interested in something that was real instead of knowingly crafting something to make me feel good.

[Typhoon]

Belief in the Abrahamic god has little influence or following in parts of the planet:

India, Thailand, Mongolia, China*, and Japan.

The world's 20 largest religions/non-religions and their number of believers/non-believer are:

Christianity (2.1 billion)
Islam (1.3 billion)
Nonreligious (Secular/Agnostic/Atheist) (1.1 billion)
Hinduism (900 million)
Chinese traditional religion (394 million)
Buddhism 376 million
Primal-indigenous (300 million)
African traditional and Diasporic (100 million)
Sikhism (23 million)
Juche (19 million)
Spiritism (15 million)
Judaism (14 million)
Bahai (7 million)
Jainism (4.2 million)
Shinto (4 million)
Cao Dai (4 million)
Zoroastrianism (2.6 million)
Tenrikyo (2 million)
Neo-Paganism (1 million)
Unitarian-Universalism (800,000)

*China. Does have a growing Christian community. The CCP has recently taken additional strong measures to ensure fidelity to the party.
Those that do not conform get to go to confession with a less benign "Colonel Sun".

In the Western sphere, I think that parts of the US are unique in their cultural preoccupation with religion.
The northern neighbour, Canada, is certainly different in this regard.

Non-religious is the most rapidly growing group in the Western world.

[Typhoon]

Have always been bemused and amused that the commandments of the supposedly omnipotent Abrahamic god start with

Thou shalt have no other gods before me

A bit insecure for an omnipotence.

Whereas

Thou shalt not kill

ranks 5th, 6th, or 7th depending on religion/denomination.

[noddy]

Fascinating. I think I would be more interested in something that was real instead of knowingly crafting something to make me feel good.

why would the middle eastern god be more real than any of the others ?

its kind of like the joke that all religious people are almost atheists, they agree nearly all of them are made up, except for one.

[Typhoon]

We are God's Chosen Blessed Few.
There's no room left in Heaven;
So to Hell with the Rest of You.

[Typhoon]

Fascinating. I think I would be more interested in something that was real instead of knowingly crafting something to make me feel good.

why would the middle eastern god be more real than any of the others ?

. . .

Quite. The same applies to deities of other religions.

Often followed by circular reasoning, "Because our sacred [insert name of text for specific religion] says so."

[Mr. Perfect]

I already addressed most of the above in the OP.

[Mr. Perfect]

why would the middle eastern god be more real than any of the others ?

I explained that in the OP.

its kind of like the joke that all religious people are almost atheists, they agree nearly all of them are made up, except for one.

I never understood that joke.

[Mr. Perfect]

Thou shalt have no other gods before me

A bit insecure for an omnipotence.

Actually it is part of why He is the True God. To embrace the highest God is to embrace all the highest virtues, and as Jesus later taught when you have the pure love of God commandments become unnecessary.

Of course to embrace a false god leads to well falseness in all it's manifestations. I would say there is nothing more important than finding the real God and truly having no other Gods before Him. It's for our benefit.

Whereas

Thou shalt not kill

ranks 5th, 6th, or 7th depending on religion/denomination.

Redundant.

[Mr. Perfect]

Belief in the Abrahamic god has little influence or following in parts of the planet:

India, Thailand, Mongolia, China*, and Japan.

The world's 20 largest religions/non-religions and their number of believers/non-believer are:

Christianity (2.1 billion)
Islam (1.3 billion)
Nonreligious (Secular/Agnostic/Atheist) (1.1 billion)
Hinduism (900 million)
Chinese traditional religion (394 million)
Buddhism 376 million
Primal-indigenous (300 million)
African traditional and Diasporic (100 million)
Sikhism (23 million)
Juche (19 million)
Spiritism (15 million)
Judaism (14 million)
Bahai (7 million)
Jainism (4.2 million)
Shinto (4 million)
Cao Dai (4 million)
Zoroastrianism (2.6 million)
Tenrikyo (2 million)
Neo-Paganism (1 million)
Unitarian-Universalism (800,000)

*China. Does have a growing Christian community. The CCP has recently taken additional strong measures to ensure fidelity to the party.
Those that do not conform get to go to confession with a less benign "Colonel Sun".

In the Western sphere, I think that parts of the US are unique in their cultural preoccupation with religion.
The northern neighbour, Canada, is certainly different in this regard.

Non-religious is the most rapidly growing group in the Western world.

And....

[noddy]

well, even if i ignore that 2/3 of the world doesnt accept that one true god claim, the remaining 1/3 is hardly in agreement on it either.

the muslims think the jews and christians follow a corrupted, incorrect version.
the christians think the jews lost their way with mammon worship and the muslims are a desert death cult.
the jews think the other 2 are weirdo cults following thousand year old charlatans.

their are some ecumenical types which dont think the above strongly, they are also a bit wishy washy about the rest of the package aswell and you get something like Bahá'í or "spirirtual but not religious"

[Mr. Perfect]

And?

Did you read my original statement yet?

[noddy]

I
Very quickly, if there is a God in the model of the omnipotent etc, then that disqualifies all of them to the best of my knowledge but the Biblical God and Allah.

Eg, greek "gods" are sort of similar to superheroes. They have superhuman power but not ultimate power. If higher beings exist I'm not sure why I would waste time with any who did not wield the highest powers.

Which is I think an ingenious lead in to the following WORD.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 5945&t=KJV

Thousands of years ago, the earliest Biblical figures began using a word that emerged in Hebrew as "Elyown", that being the "the most HIGH God", that is a god who held all power.

Interesting to me that 4000 years ago there was already an answer to this question, from goatherders and hunter gathers.

Let me know your thoughts.

yes, i read it, starts with the word "IF"

then it moves onto another "IF" based on the first "IF"

then claims the "IF" is the answer and solves the problem.

someone like me can also claim that morphing all the pagan mass into 3 versions of the one god and changing the framework for the metaphors hasnt really changed much at all.

instead of sub-gods like loki or thor telling different aspects of humanity, we have parables with different characters in them doing likewise.

[Mr. Perfect]

We'll try this again, breaking it down to it's components.

if there is a God in the model of the omnipotent etc, then that disqualifies all of them to the best of my knowledge but the Biblical God and Allah.

This appears to be a true statement. As far as I'm aware no other gods claim this status. As I have no interest in a lower god, I have to cast aside all the rest.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 5945&t=KJV

Thousands of years ago, the earliest Biblical figures began using a word that emerged in Hebrew as "Elyown", that being the "the most HIGH God", that is a god who held all power.

The God of the Bible claims to be the highest God. There are no powers that exist that he does not possess. Again, this is from goatherders, not tenured professors at an Ivy League divinity school. Goatherders figured out there must be a highest God.

To begin, we have to decide if these are true statements.

1) What value is a lesser god to a higher god
2) Of the gods we know of, which ones are the highest gods and which are the lesser

The only answer I can discover is the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah and Jesus.

[Mr. Perfect]

yes, i read it, starts with the word "IF"

then it moves onto another "IF" based on the first "IF"

then claims the "IF" is the answer and solves the problem.

someone like me can also claim that morphing all the pagan mass into 3 versions of the one god and changing the framework for the metaphors hasnt really changed much at all.

instead of sub-gods like loki or thor telling different aspects of humanity, we have parables with different characters in them doing likewise.

I would say no. I was responding to a specific question, "which of all these gods", this is not a god proof. Although I can get you to admit there is a god in 2 questions.

The answer is, the highest God, because even if he farmed out some work to Loki, Loki is still under his direction.

If Thor answers to something or someone else, I'm not sure what value Thor is to me. Only what the highest God would determine.

So I'm answering a very specific question.

[Simple Minded]

its kind of like the joke that all religious people are almost atheists, they agree nearly all of them are made up, except for one.

good point.

luckily, I only need one god..... if they fulfill my spiritual and psychological needs, if not, well, the free market also exists in religion. It's only the Religious Totalitarian Commie Bastards who think that everyone should have the same god.

[noddy]

We'll try this again, breaking it down to it's components.

if there is a God in the model of the omnipotent etc, then that disqualifies all of them to the best of my knowledge but the Biblical God and Allah.

This appears to be a true statement. As far as I'm aware no other gods claim this status. As I have no interest in a lower god, I have to cast aside all the rest.

a true statement based on if there is a God and a meaningless one without that.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 5945&t=KJV

Thousands of years ago, the earliest Biblical figures began using a word that emerged in Hebrew as "Elyown", that being the "the most HIGH God", that is a god who held all power.

The God of the Bible claims to be the highest God. There are no powers that exist that he does not possess. Again, this is from goatherders, not tenured professors at an Ivy League divinity school. Goatherders figured out there must be a highest God.

or goatherder leadership got sick of the downward turtles involved in answering "WHY" and just dumped a big fat "BECAUSE GOD" on the problem.

figuring out a circuit breaker on arguments is not the same thing, its a rhetorical trick not an actual entity.

To begin, we have to decide if these are true statements.

1) What value is a lesser god to a higher god
2) Of the gods we know of, which ones are the highest gods and which are the lesser

The only answer I can discover is the God of Noah, Abraham, Moses, Isaiah and Jesus.

well, technically odin was the highest god and father of all the other gods in the germanic system.

according to the wikipedia page on monotheism even the most colourful of the polytheists, the hindus believe the multitude of sub gods just represents the qualities of the higher power, one god.

even the chinese believe the "mandate of heaven" is one set of rules from a single source.

atheists think its the physical universe, same deal.

the god of the abrahamics in its multitude of contradictory of flavours is but one of many options for "the one true god"

[Simple Minded]

yes, i read it, starts with the word "IF"

then it moves onto another "IF" based on the first "IF"

then claims the "IF" is the answer and solves the problem.

Did you know that "if" is the middle word in "life." I always that was a pretty deep statement......

[noddy]

Although I can get you to admit there is a god in 2 questions.

conceptually, on a metaphysical level, im fine with the physical universe being "god".

anthropomorphic extensions on that are where it all breaks down into human cultural squabbling.

a mindbogglingly large (infinite ?) observable universe and apparently some bald monkeys on a rock in the middle of nowhere are the peak of creation ?

no way. its an absurdity... even more of an absurdity than evolution.

[Mr. Perfect]

a true statement based on if there is a God and a meaningless one without that.

Not really. I was asked a specific question and gave an impressive answer.

or goatherder leadership got sick of the downward turtles involved in answering "WHY" and just dumped a big fat "BECAUSE GOD" on the problem.

Strawman.

figuring out a circuit breaker on arguments is not the same thing, its a rhetorical trick not an actual entity.

well, technically odin was the highest god and father of all the other gods in the germanic system.

Yes, he was the highest of the Norse Gods from what I heard, but not all things bent to his will, so keep looking.

according to the wikipedia page on monotheism even the most colourful of the polytheists, the hindus believe the multitude of sub gods just represents the qualities of the higher power, one god.

That's an oversimplified answer.

even the chinese believe the "mandate of heaven" is one set of rules from a single source.

Do they describe the source?

atheists think its the physical universe, same deal.

Careful, you are a breath away from making a god argument. As I said earlier I can get you to admit there is a god in 2 questions, I am more certain of that now.

Remember, we are determining which god, not if there is a god.

the god of the abrahamics in its multitude of contradictory of flavours is but one of many options for "the one true god"

As I said, "Highest God", there is a difference.

[Mr. Perfect]

conceptually, on a metaphysical level, im fine with the physical universe being "god".

You are halfway there.

anthropomorphic extensions on that are where it all breaks down into human cultural squabbling.

Maybe, maybe not. When you grasp the half you are missing, it causes real problems. Entities become the most effective solution.

a mindbogglingly large (infinite ?) observable universe and apparently some bald monkeys on a rock in the middle of nowhere are the peak of creation ?

What else would there be? My 2 question thing will really be a humdinger.

no way. its an absurdity... even more of an absurdity than evolution.

Maybe. But again we aren't proving god, we are working on which one.

[Simple Minded]

We are God's Chosen Blessed Few.
There's no room left in Heaven;
So to Hell with the Rest of You.

As a friend used to say "It's gonna be a Hell of a Heaven when all those hypocrites get there."