Which God?

[Simple Minded]

Mr. P,

You are dancing around St. Anselm's ontological argument for the existence of God. Perhaps without your conscious knowledge of doing so.

Fun thread so far. Kudos to all the contributors.

Maybe Colonel Sun creating OTNOT, and OTNOTers posting here are furthering the evolution of human consciousness.....

[Mr. Perfect]

Yes and no. His argument I think was a variation on a larger theme. What I'm discovering is atheist objections were largely answered thousands of years ago before atheists even formulated them.

[noddy]

Did you know that "if" is the middle word in "life." I always that was a pretty deep statement......

woh dude, and if you get the f out, life is lie !

[Simple Minded]

...... What I'm discovering is atheist objections were largely answered thousands of years ago before atheists even formulated them.

Amen. But only in the minds of non-atheists. The human capacity to project on to others in the present, also exists for us to project on to others in the past.

"I successfully re-butted you ten minutes ago, or my ideological ancestors re-butted you ideological ancestors eons ago." Humans don't change much.

"My god is best!" or "My non-god is best!" is a very human thought process. Caring whether unknown others agree or disagree is a bizarre phenomena. I think it is called vanity or arrogance.

Zealots of both stripes are less interesting to me, than those who have lived on both sides and then switched, perhaps more than once.

Both fascinating snd timeless.

[Mr. Perfect]

Cool story, I don't see any of that happening here. What happened here is CS asked a modern atheist question and I gave a 6,000 year old answer. It's amazing how old these answers are. It's as if those people of old had supernatural foresight.

[Simple Minded]

Cool story, I don't see any of that happening here. What happened here is CS asked a modern atheist question and I gave a 6,000 year old answer. It's amazing how old these answers are. It's as if those people of old had supernatural foresight.

I believe that you are speaking the truth that "I don't see any of that happening here."

But, guided by a higher power, I think that is pure BS. Same thought processes exist today as then, ignorance (limited knowledge), rationalization, wishful thinking, projection, speculation, desperation, etc.

Now if you want to make the case that god is 6,000 years old, I would love to hear that explanation.

[Mr. Perfect]

Not really, CS asked this question.

Which god and/or gods were involved in the "intelligent design"?

The ancient Mesopotanian gods? The ancient Egyptian gods? The ancient Greek gods? The ancient Mayan and Aztec gods?
The Zoroastrian god? The Abrahamic god? The Hindu gods? The Shinto kami? Countless indigenous-folk gods?

Was an intelligent design committee appointed?
Meeting under the auspices of the UD, the United Deities.

And I answered with a 6,000 year old word, elyown. Pretty straightforward.

[Simple Minded]

Not really, CS asked this question.

Which god and/or gods were involved in the "intelligent design"?

The ancient Mesopotanian gods? The ancient Egyptian gods? The ancient Greek gods? The ancient Mayan and Aztec gods?
The Zoroastrian god? The Abrahamic god? The Hindu gods? The Shinto kami? Countless indigenous-folk gods?

Was an intelligent design committee appointed?
Meeting under the auspices of the UD, the United Deities.

And I answered with a 6,000 year old word, elyown. Pretty straightforward.

That's why I luv ya Mr. P!

6000 years ago someone came up with a word to justify their rationalizations, explain their lack of intellectual curiosity, manipulate their peers, or forever end the "My god can kick your god's ass!" argument on the playground....... and it still is being used!

As I said, some thought patterns are both satisfying and timeless.

And if it helps one sleep at night, it's even better.

[noddy]

he is right in the sense that the abrahmic god is the one people switch too if they are going to take up a new god.

christians and muslims are the ones fighting over the worlds evangelical potential , all the rest are more tied to culture and community and its more unusual for someone to claim their god(s)

flipside of that is atheism seems to grow pretty damn fast when people dont feel compelled to believe.

[Typhoon]

he is right in the sense that the abrahmic god is the one people switch too if they are going to take up a new god.

christians and muslims are the ones fighting over the worlds evangelical potential , all the rest are more tied to culture and community and its more unusual for someone to claim their god(s)

Quite. The Abrahamic faiths, Islam and Christianity, are the main religions that proselytize.

flipside of that is atheism seems to grow pretty damn fast when people don't feel compelled to believe.

Well, the idea of an anthropomorphic god in the sky does seem a bit quaint.

PR China has recently reversed this historical process, attempting to compel Muslims to not believe in their metaphysical God,
but to rather believe in the Party and Xi Thought.

Christians churches not properly aligned with the Party and Xi Thought are also again being targeted.

[Typhoon]

I
Very quickly, if there is a God in the model of the omnipotent etc, then that disqualifies all of them to the best of my knowledge but the Biblical God and Allah.

Eg, greek "gods" are sort of similar to superheroes. They have superhuman power but not ultimate power. If higher beings exist I'm not sure why I would waste time with any who did not wield the highest powers.

Which is I think an ingenious lead in to the following WORD.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 5945&t=KJV

Thousands of years ago, the earliest Biblical figures began using a word that emerged in Hebrew as "Elyown", that being the "the most HIGH God", that is a god who held all power.

Interesting to me that 4000 years ago there was already an answer to this question, from goatherders and hunter gathers.

Let me know your thoughts.

The speculations of goat herders and hunter gatherers are now known to have been mostly wrong. Your OP argument is a good candidate for the list.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

Our spengler reviewed another book:

Shay draws a bright line between monotheism and what he calls idolatry, that is, the elevation of what is not God to the status of God – including the worship of powerful men and women. And it exposes the reader adroitly to the biblical idea that nothing deserves worship except the one God of all mankind..... His most striking conclusion is that it is less important to believe in God than it is to reject idolatry – the elevation of things that are less than God to divine status.

http://www.atimes.com/article/not-by-br ... ice-alone/

[Simple Minded]

Picking a god is still the act of a blind person feeling up a yuge meta-physical elephant. The person describing the tail, or the trunk, or the leg, or the belly, all IMSMO, are somewhat interesting, simply because they are describing their personal experience.

The theist or atheist who claims all the others are wrong simply due to the validation of their own personal experience is much less interesting to me. I buy into belief system X,Y, or Z due to accident of birth, is generally is not very illustrative.

Kinda like the flea on the dog disagreeing with the flea on the cat or the flea on the deer. No wonder people get defensive and indignant. "How dare you say your experiences are different than mine. We're talking about absolute truth here Pal! Die you heretic!" The finite and temporary describing the infinite and eternal. Uh-huh.

Before the word, there was "I'm right and you're wrong!" Seems even more timeless, more commonly believed, and more readily practiced than even, the word.

The most interesting anecdotes I have heard are from those who have switched belief systems, due to life's trials and tribulations, and who can describe their epiphanies.

[noddy]

His most striking conclusion is that it is less important to believe in God than it is to reject idolatry – the elevation of things that are less than God to divine

I like that.

truth in it too - atheism is a bit reactionary and modern in the west, its probably why we need to steal things from the other cultures to flesh it out.

their is much in the meditations and prayers of value.. in the practices of belief that is healthy for the mind and soul.

[Mr. Perfect]

That's why I luv ya Mr. P!

6000 years ago someone came up with a word to justify their rationalizations, explain their lack of intellectual curiosity, manipulate their peers, or forever end the "My god can kick your god's ass!" argument on the playground....... and it still is being used!

As I said, some thought patterns are both satisfying and timeless.

And if it helps one sleep at night, it's even better.

Don't be hating just because proto-jews outsmarted everyone 6,000 years ago. Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

[Mr. Perfect]

Picking a god is still the act of a blind person feeling up a yuge meta-physical elephant.

Fascinating projection.

[Mr. Perfect]

The speculations of goat herders and hunter gatherers are now known to have been mostly wrong.

Citation needed.

Your OP argument is a good candidate for the list.

I don't know, it's near identical to your belief system. Based on reading your material, you believe in one gravity, one weak force, one strong force, one periodic table and so forth. There aren't lesser laws competing with higher laws. Just one highest law that everything conforms to. In fact your field is currently looking for the One True God, called the Grand Unifying Theory.

Same thing.

6,000 years ago some proto hebrews figured out the same thing applied to other areas, that there must be one highest authority, not several competing lower ones. There is a rich harmony in that, that belief system and yours.

[Mr. Perfect]

flipside of that is atheism seems to grow pretty damn fast when people dont feel compelled to believe.

Coupled with aggressive evangelism.

[Mr. Perfect]

Quite. The Abrahamic faiths, Islam and Christianity, are the main religions that proselytize.

That proselyte outside their "communities"

[Simple Minded]

Don't be hating just because proto-jews outsmarted everyone 6,000 years ago. Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

That's the problem with you CJW's (Cosmic Justice Warriors) Mr. P.

You can't tolerate a difference of opinion. You immediately turn to labels. Anyone who is not goose-stepping in your ideological/theological parade is "hating."

Pretty sure I am the way I am cause its God's will! Hell, I was made in his image!

I seem to remember some text in the Bible warning one not to bear false witness, and advising to keep one's vanity and arrogance in check, and not assuming one is able to read what is in the hearts of others.

Not as much fun as playing the "I'm right you're wrong game."

[Simple Minded]

Picking a god is still the act of a blind person feeling up a yuge meta-physical elephant.

Fascinating projection.

Not projecting anymore than the tribe of photo-jews looking at themselves as a tribe, looking at their tribal leaders, and then speculating that somewhere out there, there is all powerful tribal leader. Controlling the whole enchilada!

Just to be safe, in the long term, let's seek his favor. I'll sleep better knowing he is watching over us.

"Hey, yo Elyown, how do you like your cow cooked? Well done? No? Burnt? You got it! Want some milk with that? Coming right up!!"

Finite, short lived beings, of limited power speculating about a potential infinite, eternal, all powerful being.

Hell, god even made them in his own image. What else would they think?

Horses and cows probably think the same of their gods.

[Mr. Perfect]

Not projecting anymore than the tribe of photo-jews looking at themselves as a tribe, looking at their tribal leaders, and then speculating that somewhere out there, there is all powerful tribal leader. Controlling the whole enchilada!

It is an impressive feat, you have to give them that. In thousands of years nobody else thought of that.

Just to be safe, in the long term, let's seek his favor. I'll sleep better knowing he is watching over us.

"Hey, yo Elyown, how do you like your cow cooked? Well done? No? Burnt? You got it! Want some milk with that? Coming right up!!"

Finite, short lived beings, of limited power speculating about a potential infinite, eternal, all powerful being.

Hell, god even made them in his own image. What else would they think?

Now, you raise an interesting point.

So far, I have created the following.

1. A thread on how people find God
2. A thread invalidating atheism by atheists own words
3. A thread that proofs the existence of elyown over his competitors

What remains is a thread that discusses who or what this God is. What is the nature of God. That is in the works. At that point i will have handed God to you on a silver platter.

Horses and cows probably think the same of their gods.

We will never know, we can't communicate with them.

[Mr. Perfect]

That's the problem with you CJW's (Cosmic Justice Warriors) Mr. P.

You can't tolerate a difference of opinion. You immediately turn to labels. Anyone who is not goose-stepping in your ideological/theological parade is "hating."

Pretty sure I am the way I am cause its God's will! Hell, I was made in his image!

I seem to remember some text in the Bible warning one not to bear false witness, and advising to keep one's vanity and arrogance in check, and not assuming one is able to read what is in the hearts of others.

Not as much fun as playing the "I'm right you're wrong game."

If you don't mind me saying, something in this conversation triggered something in you that I find interesting. You seem disturbed that people 2,000 years before the 12 tribes figured out there was One God.

For me, I take a look at reality and try to conform to it. Other people try to get reality to conform to them.

Is there something that disturbs you about the possibility of there being just One God? My guess is that would be hard for a triangulator to swallow, as I think about it.

[Simple Minded]

That's the problem with you CJW's (Cosmic Justice Warriors) Mr. P.

You can't tolerate a difference of opinion. You immediately turn to labels. Anyone who is not goose-stepping in your ideological/theological parade is "hating."

Pretty sure I am the way I am cause its God's will! Hell, I was made in his image!

I seem to remember some text in the Bible warning one not to bear false witness, and advising to keep one's vanity and arrogance in check, and not assuming one is able to read what is in the hearts of others.

Not as much fun as playing the "I'm right you're wrong game."

If you don't mind me saying, something in this conversation triggered something in you that I find interesting. You seem disturbed that people 2,000 years before the 12 tribes figured out there was One God.

For me, I take a look at reality and try to conform to it. Other people try to get reality to conform to them.

Is there something that disturbs you about the possibility of there being just One God? My guess is that would be hard for a triangulator to swallow, as I think about it.

Again with the labels! Fascinating projections Mr. P.

I'm just enjoying the banter/discussion. Discussing religion is fascinating. Few things are as subjective as individuals claiming they are the sole keepers of the absolute, eternal truth.

Especially now that people who may never have been within 500 miles of each other, can communicate so easily.

As someone once said "People don't react to reality, they react to their interpretations of reality."

Seems a timeless aspect of being human. Ancient texts seem to support it.

[Mr. Perfect]

Again with the labels! Fascinating projections Mr. P.

For those of us that are non label phobic we call them adjectives.

I'm just enjoying the banter/discussion. Discussing religion is fascinating. Few things are as subjective as individuals claiming they are the sole keepers of the absolute, eternal truth.

Seems like it. Some people find it terrifying that maybe it won't be subjective, in the end.

Especially now that people who may never have been within 500 miles of each other, can communicate so easily.

As someone once said "People don't react to reality, they react to their interpretations of reality."

Seems a timeless aspect of being human. Ancient texts seem to support it.

Some ancient texts aged better than others.