Militarized Police

[Mr. Perfect]

I would like to start a thread on this, see what you think, but after a certain point it would seem that we could fold into the other thread, but I would like to use this to compile some research.

I think I finally pinpointed the problem. My older brother in HS got a clerk job at a small town PD. I was forced to dig post holes, mow lawns etc for my first job. I was rather bitter, but it worked out.

I went in there a few times, and the cops wore dress shoes, ties, collared shirts, slacks. 15 years ago I drove by there and they were in full combat fatigues. Something registered that things were out of kilter. In this town, there had never been a riot or armed insurrection.

So, some time ago I began serious weapons training. I became a member at a large training facility that local PDs and SWAT teams utilized. I trained with them, took that type of training. Now, I don't say that in tough guy braggadocio that I might normally use, but I am much better than a cop or SWAT with firearms, and as a result they started sucking up to me. I began seeing inside their culture.

It was weird. Something didn't seem right. Much later I saw they were being trained to use algorithms in their encounters. If they had an difficult encounter, as tensions escalated they became a threat, and if the threat level rose then you engage and "eliminate" the threat. Everything was a potential threat.

As the debate heated up, I couldn't figure it out. Most of these civic disurbances have their roots in liberalism, but I couldn't find it. In the other thread anyone can find bullet proof evidence of that being the root of the current episode.

But police brutality...

I'm right wing, the moral purpose of government includes a police force. I naturally support police. However incidence of brutality do occur. But they look different than they use to.

They used take and undesirable into the alley and thrash good, teaching people a lesson. Now, they chokehold you and shoot you.

What happened? I couldn't find the root.

[Mr. Perfect]

I had an interesting week. I did some midweek boating with a group of people. No liberals. Some conservatives and moderates. Current events came up, and one of the moderates began to vent about policing. He'd had some of that negative police interaction.

Turns out on the subject of militarized police came up. One of the people in the group was related to a powerful police captain of a major city. He said had discussed such issues with this police officer at length over the years.

The police officer's position was that the militarization process had been a success! This was surprising to my friend. So much so that he didn't follow up on it.

Some time later, he decided revisit the issue, and find out by what standard you consider it a success. What is the metric.

The answer came quickly. He said, it's a success because the number of killed cops keeps dropping.

That's it.

The number one priority of the police department is to not let their people get killed. So they adopted tactical military equipment, chokeholds, and shooting people at a certain threat level to save their own.

We have a problem on our hands.

Let me know what you find.

[noddy]

I wonder if a society can have both guns and drugs - I suspect its an either-or situation.

you cant pin it down to one of those things - plenty of examples of countries with legal drugs and normalised murder rates plus plenty of countries with lots of guns and normalised murder rates.

the places with abnormal murder rates - cops or not - seem to have both.

druggies dont make rational decisions, druggies with guns do need that extra layer of millitary response, and then everything goes pearshaped in regards normal responses to normal situations.

[Mr. Perfect]

But they know where the gunned up drug runners are. They aren't in the place my brother worked, to this day.

[Mr. Perfect]

You could say the Democrat inner cities led the way, but now I know why. I think.

[noddy]

ye, outta my world experience.

our coppers arent so militarized, but we dont have many guns in our cities so its a full swat team over reaction when they are involved - its always criminal drug gangs that have the guns.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

I wonder if a society can have both guns and drugs - I suspect its an either-or situation.

you cant pin it down to one of those things - plenty of examples of countries with legal drugs and normalised murder rates plus plenty of countries with lots of guns and normalised murder rates.

the places with abnormal murder rates - cops or not - seem to have both.

druggies dont make rational decisions, druggies with guns do need that extra layer of millitary response, and then everything goes pearshaped in regards normal responses to normal situations.

+1

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

The answer came quickly. He said, it's a success because the number of killed cops keeps dropping.

That's it.

The number one priority of the police department is to not let their people get killed. So they adopted tactical military equipment, chokeholds, and shooting people at a certain threat level to save their own.

We have a problem on our hands.

Let me know what you find.

yep, and that has always been the case.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Mr. P,

Also have to account for

--fighting against widespread bribery

--fighting against organized crime

--fighting against the drug trade

--opening up the police force from being (at least in this area) an ethnic job

with the three usually wrapped up.

A militarized police is in theory: more disciplined, more pliable, less likely to be bribed or intimidated by organized opposition, more meritocratic

[noddy]

its going to be interesting to see what happens in the marijuana legalisation states.

do they have much black population ?

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

Around the time, probably a bit before, your brother was interning on the west coast; my godfather was a cop here on the east coast. After he left the navy and married my mother's older sister, he needed a job; so my grandfather twisted a few arms and got him into what was essentially an all Irish social club.
It was arm twisting, 'cause 1) he wasn't Irish and would've never been hired otherwise 2) he's always been as blind as a bat and would've never passed the eye test on his own. One of the higher-ups sat in on his eye test for "moral support" and read him the chart. Think about that, they handed out a gun to a man who couldn't see five feet in front of his face and told him to get out there.

And the police force he describes had it's own set of problems.

The graft was out of control. Free meals here, free televisions there...it wasn't even like it was widespread and purposeful shakedowns. Though I'm sure those happened too. But having that badge could manifest a lot of deal making.

Then there was the uneven policing in ethnic neighborhoods; there was a lot of under-reporting of crime starting with domestic abuse.

And a lot of informal policing, the type no one could get away with today.

If some kid stole from some store and was caught...as long as he could make some restitution, why get the courts involved?

That guy all over the road-- why not just drive him home-- why report it?

If so and so was a little too abusive, a nice off the record beatdown got the point across a lot better than bringing the lawyers in.

It was arbitrary.

[Mr. Perfect]

One of the reasons I wouldn't live on the East Coast.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

its going to be interesting to see what happens in the marijuana legalisation states.

do they have much black population ?

Would we even get an accurate report on the situation?

[Mr. Perfect]

its going to be interesting to see what happens in the marijuana legalisation states.

do they have much black population ?

CHAZ is in a MJ legal state. It changed literally nothing.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

There is Marijuana legalization and then marijuana decriminalization where the authorities are using that as an excuse to not police any drugs. Just like theft is no longer a concern.

See that youtube video of "Seattle is Dying" I posted in the CHAZ thread.

[noddy]

yeh - im completekly ignorant of any of it - I just remember one of the "arbitrary and racial" sticking points was middle class white kids being sent home with a warning for smoking dope while poor white and black kids get multi year prison sentances for it.

no idea which states or how accurate it all is.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

I don't know. My own reading suggests that hasn't been the case for a very long time, but persists (or persisted as since legalized) as very effective propaganda.

My loathing is that when it comes to anything which affects dopamine levels at an immediate sort of level, there is no reasoning & plenty of statistical ways to validate all of it.

That goes for the for&against crowds; and particularly the nuisance self-described moderates.

Though on that note, God bless the libertines; they never complicate the matter.

[Mr. Perfect]

Black incarcerations rates were almost always in Democrat states. Democrats really hate black people, going back to slavery.

The decriminalize idea of fighting crime is and has always been catastrophically stupid, and were finally watching it play out. If you want to bring down the murder rate, make murder legal etc. A logic loop that goes nowhere.

To reinforce, NY/NJ/MA corruption is the stuff of legend, from Mafia to bought off cops and corrupt unions, and I have simply decided to never live there. Some things are intractable and I cannot change them on a timescale of my lifetime.

I think the way law and order came to us west of the Mississippi really didn't allow that stuff to carry over here.

[Mr. Perfect]

The legalization movement has not been a net positive in any way shape or form. I think it will begin reversing itself fairly soon.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

I think the way law and order came to us west of the Mississippi really didn't allow that stuff to carry over here.

Right, it's a whole different thing when we start talking about communities which spring out of the wild west.

[noddy]

that is overly simplistic - the easy way to criminalize 80% of the white population was to make alcohol illegal.

nobody thinks that was a good idea.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

that is overly simplistic - the easy way to criminalize 80% of the white population was to make alcohol illegal.

nobody thinks that was a good idea.

what's overly simplistic?

Enough people thought it was a good idea to pass an amendment (which is a hard thing to do) and enforce it for a decade.

[noddy]

The decriminalize idea of fighting crime is and has always been catastrophically stupid, and were finally watching it play out. If you want to bring down the murder rate, make murder legal etc. A logic loop that goes nowhere.

that is overly simplistic

Enough people thought it was a good idea to pass an amendment (which is a hard thing to do) and enforce it for a decade.

sure, then enough people thought it was mad to criminalise so many people for no good reason.

Im no fan of the intoxicant promoting progressive nonsense but it is medically sane to put MJ into much the same grouping as Alcohol and apply the same logic that if that is their only crime, then is it criminal.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

I'd say that the temperance movement pretty much won, considering how our laws around alcohol have shaped out.

[NapLajoieonSteroids]

The decriminalize idea of fighting crime is and has always been catastrophically stupid, and were finally watching it play out. If you want to bring down the murder rate, make murder legal etc. A logic loop that goes nowhere.

that is overly simplistic

Enough people thought it was a good idea to pass an amendment (which is a hard thing to do) and enforce it for a decade.

sure, then enough people thought it was mad to criminalise so many people for no good reason.

Im no fan of the intoxicant promoting progressive nonsense but it is medically sane to put MJ into much the same grouping as Alcohol and apply the same logic that if that is their only crime, then is it criminal.

Well, you can't really keep it criminalized when so many people disregard the law. To do so ultimately breeds disrespect for all laws.