What odds China + India = Love
Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:53 am
What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
Another day in the Universe
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https://www.onthenatureofthings.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477
Thank you Very Much for your post, Carbizene.Carbizene wrote:As the West upgrades seating on the crazy train, say via a attack on Iran, could not those disputes be placed in perspective and be seen of lower relevance than a conglomeration of power that seems to be acting increasingly in Medieval construct, devolving.
The dispute between India and Pakistan is also based on Medieval premise though, at least skin colour is not a diferentiator, thus maybe more likely of resolution brought about by the fear of a nutjob neighbour.
This presumes thatCarbizene wrote:What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
Thank you Very Much for your post, Azari.AzariLoveIran wrote:.
The wars to come, will be for world distribution of natural resources
in that fight
China and India .. each with 1.6 billion population .. want their share of the world resources
in that sense
initially
they on the opposite side of western powers
but
once west is pushed back, and, resources become free for all
once there
fight shifts to China versus India for those freed resources
.
no difference between resources under sea bed or on continentSparky wrote:.
Most resources beneath the sea bed may as well be in outer space.
.
We might have to wait until Jan 2013 before we have something like an answer......;>.........Typhoon wrote:This presumes thatCarbizene wrote:What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
1/ the West is nuts
2/ the West is more nuts than either China or India
What is your evidence for you assertions?
India and China have a long history of disputes along with significant cultural differences which make Team Asia unlikely to say the least.
This is one of those reasons that a strong Iran is good for stability in Asia.AzariLoveIran wrote:.
The wars to come, will be for world distribution of natural resources
in that fight
China and India .. each with 1.6 billion population .. want their share of the world resources
in that sense
initially
they on the opposite side of western powers
but
once west is pushed back, and, resources become free for all
once there
fight shifts to China versus India for those freed resources
.
Definitely. Unfortunately, China seems to have big ideas when it comes to Taiwan and the South China Sea.Ibrahim wrote:I don't see how China and India would form any kind of "team" or why that would be necessary. Both need to focus on internal matters more than anything, and basically just stay out of each other's way.
Enki wrote:This is one of those reasons that a strong Iran is good for stability in Asia.AzariLoveIran wrote:.
The wars to come, will be for world distribution of natural resources
in that fight
China and India .. each with 1.6 billion population .. want their share of the world resources
in that sense
initially
they on the opposite side of western powers
but
once west is pushed back, and, resources become free for all
once there
fight shifts to China versus India for those freed resources
.
.
Western madness: Bombing Iran, destroying Iraq and turning it over to Iran.Typhoon wrote:This presumes thatCarbizene wrote:What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
1/ the West is nuts
2/ the West is more nuts than either China or India
What is your evidence for you assertions?
India and China have a long history of disputes along with significant cultural differences which make Team Asia unlikely to say the least.
Indeed it is an unlikely/impossible friendship, like Stalin/Hitler.monster_gardener wrote: Think that the danger of nuke war between India & Pakistan is comparable to war between Israel and Iran.............
The US is seeking to limit China by the TPSP as seen by the escalation in Australia, so it needs allies and India might see the writing on the wall that the West just don't like others sharing the honey pot and cut to the chase, throw in the Russian Federation and one has the makings of a massive, if unlikely bloc.Ibrahim wrote:I don't see how China and India would form any kind of "team" or why that would be necessary. Both need to focus on internal matters more than anything, and basically just stay out of each other's way.
Well, the US is not the West and despite repeated threats to do so, it has so far not bombed Iran.Carbizene wrote:Western madness: Bombing Iran, destroying Iraq and turning it over to Iran.Typhoon wrote:This presumes thatCarbizene wrote:What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
1/ the West is nuts
2/ the West is more nuts than either China or India
What is your evidence for you assertions?
India and China have a long history of disputes along with significant cultural differences which make Team Asia unlikely to say the least.
When was the last time China or India invaded/bombed a Nation?
I understand that historically my suggestion has as much chance as me genuflecting Kylie Minogue, but things change, Rome thought it would last forever and Kylie Minogue was spotted in a three way a while back in Adelaide.
Carbizene wrote:Western madness: Bombing Iran, destroying Iraq and turning it over to Iran.Typhoon wrote:This presumes thatCarbizene wrote:What likelihood that China and India form team Asia when they have no choice but to accept just how nuts the West is?
1/ the West is nuts
2/ the West is more nuts than either China or India
What is your evidence for you assertions?
India and China have a long history of disputes along with significant cultural differences which make Team Asia unlikely to say the least.
When was the last time China or India invaded/bombed a Nation?
I understand that historically my suggestion has as much chance as me genuflecting Kylie Minogue, but things change, Rome thought it would last forever and Kylie Minogue was spotted in a three way a while back in Adelaide.
Both have done it relatively recently.........When was the last time China or India invaded/bombed a Nation?
Thank you Very Much for your post, Carbizene.Carbizene wrote:Indeed it is an unlikely/impossible friendship, like Stalin/Hitler.monster_gardener wrote: Think that the danger of nuke war between India & Pakistan is comparable to war between Israel and Iran.............
Indeed it is an unlikely/impossible friendship, like Stalin/Hitler.
but neither have invaded countries on the other side of the globe in massive force projection events, destabilisng the entire globe.monster_gardener wrote: Both have done it relatively recently.........
In support of the vile Khemer Rouge, China invaded Vietnam. To our shame, the US government supported China in this though I opposed it. Vietnam was our enemy month but Khmer Rouge were perhaps REALLY worse than the Nazis.........
China also invaded Tibet in the overthrow of the Dalai Lama though one might dispute whether Tibet was a independent nation, IMVHO it was.
India invaded East Pakistan/Bangladesh to stop the genocide of the West Pakistanis against the Bangladeshis*
There is also the problem of Kashmir which a Pakistani might consider an invasion.........
*Who recently have begun to persecute Hindus in Bangladesh........... Good deeds are often punished.......
i guess i'm just saying shotgun weddin's do happen i guess sometimes they can work out, just a bit weird at christmas is all.monster_gardener wrote:
I get your point but how well did that work out in the end for either side.........
Soviets took lots of damage when Hitler betrayed Stalin.........
Germans took perhaps even more damage when Stalin got his revenge..........
America and the West are friends with benefits, they get blown when they need + Hans and Pierre are onboard for bombing Iran and of course Edward already has his mouth full.Typhoon wrote: Well, the US is not the West and despite repeated threats to do so, it has so far not bombed Iran.
Aggression and war are not unique to the West.
India and Pakistan are constantly on the verge of war.
China is p*ssing off many of it's neighbours with it's absurb territorial claims in the S China Sea. Then there is the Taiwan issue.
Both India and esp China have been constrained to-date by the Pax Americana.
Thank you Very Much for your post, Carbizene.......Carbizene wrote:but neither have invaded countries on the other side of the globe in massive force projection events, destabilisng the entire globe.monster_gardener wrote: Both have done it relatively recently.........
In support of the vile Khemer Rouge, China invaded Vietnam. To our shame, the US government supported China in this though I opposed it. Vietnam was our enemy month but Khmer Rouge were perhaps REALLY worse than the Nazis.........
China also invaded Tibet in the overthrow of the Dalai Lama though one might dispute whether Tibet was a independent nation, IMVHO it was.
India invaded East Pakistan/Bangladesh to stop the genocide of the West Pakistanis against the Bangladeshis*
There is also the problem of Kashmir which a Pakistani might consider an invasion.........
*Who recently have begun to persecute Hindus in Bangladesh........... Good deeds are often punished.......
Zheng He (1371–1433; simplified Chinese: 郑和; traditional Chinese: 鄭和; pinyin: Zhèng Hé), also known as Ma Sanbao (simplified Chinese: 马三宝; traditional Chinese: 馬三寶) and Hajji Mahmud Shamsuddin (Persian: حاجی محمود شمس الدين) was a Hui-Chinese mariner, explorer, diplomat and fleet admiral, who commanded voyages to Southeast Asia, South Asia, the Middle East, East Africa, and the Horn of Africa collectively referred to as the Voyages of Zheng He or Voyages of Cheng Ho from 1405 to 1433.
Zheng, born as Ma He[1] (馬和 / 马和), was the second son of a Muslim family which also had four daughters, from Kunyang, present day Jinning, just south of Kunming near the southwest corner of Lake Dian in Yunnan.[2][3][4]
He was the great great great grandson of Sayyid Ajjal Shams al-Din Omar, a Persian who served in the administration of the Mongolian Empire and was appointed governor of Yunnan during the early Yuan Dynasty.[5][6] Both his grandfather and great-grandfather carried the title of Hajji, which indicates they had made the pilgrimage to Mecca.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_HeBetween 1405 and 1433, the Ming government sponsored seven naval expeditions. The Yongle emperor designed them to establish a Chinese presence, impose imperial control over trade, impress foreign peoples in the Indian Ocean basin and extend the empire's tributary system. It has also been claimed, on the basis of later texts, that the voyages also presented an opportunity to seek out Zhu Yunwen (the previous emperor whom the Yongle emperor had usurped and who was rumored to have fled into exile) – possibly the "largest scale manhunt on water in the history of China".[10]
Zheng He was placed as the admiral in control of the huge fleet and armed forces that undertook these expeditions. Wang Jinghong was appointed his second in command. Zheng He's first voyage, which departed July 11, 1405, from Suzhou,[11]:203 consisted of a fleet of 317 ships[12][13][14] (other sources say 200 ships) holding almost 28,000 crewmen (each ship housing up to 500 men).[12]
One of a set of maps of Zheng He's missions (郑和航海图), also known as the Mao Kun maps, 1628.
Zheng He's fleets visited Arabia, Brunei, the Horn of Africa, India, Southeast Asia and Thailand, dispensing and receiving goods along the way.[14] Zheng He presented gifts of gold, silver, porcelain and silk; in return, China received such novelties as ostriches, zebras, camels, ivory and a giraffe from the Swahili. [15].[11]:206[14][16] [17]
While Zheng He's fleet was unprecedented (compared to previous voyages from China to the east Indian Ocean), the routes were not. Zheng He's fleet was following long-established, well-mapped routes. Sea-based trade links had existed between China and the Arabian peninsula since the Han Dynasty (there being trade with the Roman Empire at that time.) During the Three Kingdoms, the king of Wu sent a diplomatic mission along the coast of Asia, reaching as far as the Eastern Roman Empire. During the Song Dynasty, there was large scale maritime trade from China reaching as far as the Arabian peninsula and East Africa.[18]
Zheng He generally sought to attain his goals through diplomacy, and his large army awed most would-be enemies into submission. But a contemporary reported that Zheng He "walked like a tiger" and did not shrink from violence when he considered it necessary to impress foreign peoples with China's military might.[19] He ruthlessly suppressed pirates who had long plagued Chinese and southeast Asian waters. For example, he would defeat Chen Zuyi, one of the most feared and respected pirate captains, and return him back to China for execution.[20] He also waged a land war against the Kingdom of Kotte in Ceylon, and he made displays of military force when local officials threatened his fleet in Arabia and East Africa. From his fourth voyage, he brought envoys from thirty states who traveled to China and paid their respects at the Ming court.
In 1424, the Yongle Emperor died. His successor, the Hongxi Emperor (reigned 1424–1425), decided to stop the voyages during his short reign. Zheng He made one more voyage during the reign of Hongxi's son Xuande Emperor (reigned 1426–1435), but after that the voyages of the Chinese treasure ship fleets were ended. Xuande believed his father's decision to halt the voyages meritorious, and thus "there would be no need to make a detailed description of his grandfather’s sending Zheng He to the Western Oceans."[21] This, and the fact that the voyages "were contrary to the rules stipulated in the Huangming zuxun, Ancestral Injunctions of the August Ming,"[21] the royal founding documents laid down by the Hongwu Emperor, account for the Ming "neglect" of Zheng He in official accounts and the scant records of the voyages available for later historians.[21]
Zheng He died during the treasure fleet's last voyage. Although he has a tomb in China, it is empty: he was, like many great admirals, buried at sea.[2