Firearms and other Weapons

[Marcus]

Philisophy of individual choices to spend their cash on a debatable utility...

Remington or Mossberg for a pump shotgun? I'm leanin' Remington 870.

And why do over-under shotguns cost so damn much?????

I bought my 870 through an old gunsmith, now long deceased, in Texas. He told me the 870 was the most dependable repeater ever built.

[Ibrahim]

It's in Herodotus, and Graves mentions it several times in his Claudius novels, the original quote is attributed to Solon. Allegedly it was the basis of the education of a Persian noble warrior, or at least an ideal. Similar expressions exist among the steppe peoples.

Can you supply any documentation whatsoever for those claims?

Sure, PM me your address and I'll ship you some sworn affidavits.

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim


The more I see your thoughts the more I think we overlap in important ways. Sorry about guilt by association.


I agree with your argument from utility. If I teach people,before we even talk about what gun and how to shoot it, I ask them where their fire extinguisher is. 'Nuff said.


However, look at an expanded notion of utility with diminished costs. I can, for $500, get someone up and running and able to minimally defend their home. Past maybe ten hours to begin with, they will retain that ability with virtually no time investment afterward. This is, admittedly, achievable with many other legal schemes beyond the firehose style of gun sales.

But. A gun- rich environment, with high capability tools and ready training, allows me significantly more ability. As a single individual, I can dollar for dollar deal with a hell of a lot more of a problem associated with firearms than fire. I would have had zero problem with Zimmerman confronting a stranger in his neighborhood, no phone, no police, hell, no GUN- if he'd had the salt in his pockets or the certificates on his wall to do that. He didn't. I will insert myself far, far further into situations than he did.

The gorilla in the room here is that US law allows and encourages its people to act as agents of order. It is understood that it is the right of law abiding citizens to take over much of their own policing duties. I prefer it this way, in total, because having worked for the police, I only trust them with so much.

US law certainly permits it, thereby tacitly encouraging it. I don't have a problem with that, but I do take note that the general trend of declining crime rates over the past two to three decades is consistent in developed nations that do not encourage this and restrict firearms much more than the US, so clearly the liberal (small "L") attitude towards guns is neutral in terms of crime prevention. It's simply a cultural difference, and us multiculturalists are doctrinally bound to celebrate those.

The Zimmerman/Martin shooting is an isolated example, and in fact Joe Citizen playing amateur cop almost certainly results in less innocent people being harmed that the actual cops doing their job. It's not really a major problem, which is why I don't have some axe to grind with American gun laws. As I like to point out, traffic is much more deadly and I don't see any of us doing much about that.

My irritation is more esoteric, and I usually only give grief to people who fetishize guns. But that's a minority of gun owners to say the least. Gun = fire extinguisher or car is really my guiding principle.

Remington is generally thought of as a more durable frame. Honestly, though, I've never seen a shot- out Mossberg.

Numerous European SWAT-equivalents and special forces use the 870 as their go-to shotgun, and you know they would rather chew tin foil than use an American over European weapon, so it must be the best shotgun for the task at hand.

[cdgt]

Philisophy of individual choices to spend their cash on a debatable utility...

Remington or Mossberg for a pump shotgun? I'm leanin' Remington 870.

Compromise. I have a Mossberg barrel on my 870.

More seriously, what I've read gives a slight edge to the 870, but that's quibble material. Do you have a preference on the safety? Remington is on the trigger guard, Mossberg (I believe) is on the tang area. The tang is probably more natural for some.

And why do over-under shotguns cost so damn much?????

These aren't so bad... though I would probably remove the rails. Even with 20" barrel, pretty short overall length. Single trigger, tang safety. Lots to like.

Swapping out barrels on a Mossberg or 870 makes them a bit more versatile.

[Marcus]

It's in Herodotus, and Graves mentions it several times in his Claudius novels, the original quote is attributed to Solon. Allegedly it was the basis of the education of a Persian noble warrior, or at least an ideal. Similar expressions exist among the steppe peoples.

Can you supply any documentation whatsoever for those claims?

Sure, PM me your address and I'll ship you some sworn affidavits.

Don't be such a smart-aleck. I cited a source for the poem, you posted the above.

Where in Herodotus?
Where in Graves' Claudius novels?
Where in Persian literature?
What other, similar "expressions" exist among the steppe peoples? Where referenced?

Or are all such sources the products of your wishful thinking or overactive imagination? . . . . You're always bitching at others for references . . where are yours?

[cincinnatus]

Thanks Gents. Just making sure my bias wasn't leading me astray.

But seriously, why do over-unders cost in the thousands? And that's just the guns I see at the shop (Remington, Benelli, Beretta). Online, there are evidently competition over-unders that begin around $5K. My guess is this is where the rich folks live, trap shooting with these fancy weapons.

[Ibrahim]

It's in Herodotus, and Graves mentions it several times in his Claudius novels, the original quote is attributed to Solon. Allegedly it was the basis of the education of a Persian noble warrior, or at least an ideal. Similar expressions exist among the steppe peoples.

Can you supply any documentation whatsoever for those claims?

Sure, PM me your address and I'll ship you some sworn affidavits.

Don't be such a smart-aleck. I cited a source for the poem, you posted the above.

Where in Herodotus?
Where in Graves' Claudius novels?
Where in Persian literature?
What other, similar "expressions" exist among the steppe peoples? Where referenced?

Or are all such sources the products of your wishful thinking or overactive imagination? . . . . You're always bitching at others for references . . where are yours?

You gave a name. I gave three names. Do you want page numbers? Well I'm too lazy to look them up. Google it or something, or call me a liar. Or read Herodotus or Graves. I don't care.

It was a joke about every thread here turning into a discussion of Iran, but I also know I'm correct. It doesn't really matter. Human civilization is 5000 years old so there aren't many new ideas.

[Marcus]

. . Do you want page numbers? Well I'm too lazy to look them up. Google it or something, or . .

. . or this:

RAiTOuSyJsQ

[Demon of Undoing]

Herodotus 1.136.2

[Demon of Undoing]

Hey, cg. Mossberg is reading your mind in your dreams.

Behold, the tactical lever action rifle.




Years ago, a Guns and Ammo writer did something like this and went through a Gunsite course with it. Did fine. The trick is slicking up the loading gate. Tubular mags suck, Evolution ammo notwithstanding.

If it had a Browning detachable mag, it would be perfect for a mutant Scout.

[Ibrahim]

Herodotus 1.136.2

I choose to believe you just knew that from memory, and didn't even have to look it up.

[cdgt]

New gun from Ruger:

Ruger® is proud to introduce the Ruger 22/45 Lite™, a lightweight Ruger® 22/45™ pistol with a new aluminum upper receiver. Chambered in the popular .22 LR, the Ruger 22/45 Lite™ is accurate and reliable, making it the ideal lightweight rimfire pistol.

The Ruger 22/45 Lite™ upper receiver is made of aircraft-grade aluminum and features serrated cuts, giving the pistol a dramatic look and making it extremely lightweight at only 22.8 ounces. The 4.4-inch stainless steel barrel sleeve is held in place by a tension nut to ensure accuracy and features a factory ½-28 thread to accept popular muzzle accessories. The receiver is finished in a striking gold anodize and is drilled and tapped for Weaver®-style scope base adapters (included free of charge) for easy mounting of optics. The comfortable, precision-molded Zytel® polymer grip frame features replaceable Hogue® black rubber grip panels that can be swapped out to customize the look of your Ruger 22/45 Lite™ pistol. The Ruger 22/45 Lite™ is the perfect outdoor companion and can be used for target shooting, plinking, small game hunting, or competitive shooting.

Much to like there, howsoever I prefer the SR22. But if they hadn't introduced the SR22, it would have been tempting.

I do find the serrated cuts odd, given that they are usually place there on a slide for a better grip. Which is pointless on a Mk series pistol. And given that the tube is already aluminum, it's not like they're cutting lots of weight from it. And I'd prefer flat black instead of gold.

But it would be a pretty decent value piece, light enough that it would be easy to carry.

[Enki]

What does the 45 in 22/45 denote?

[cdgt]

What does the 45 in 22/45 denote?

They patterned the grip after a 1911 .45 auto, as opposed to the original Mk series grip, which was somewhat Luger-ish:

[Marcus]

Here's a picture of my old, tried-and-true .22 pistol . . a Belgian Browning Challenger I bought new over 30 years ago . . lots of rounds through it . .

100232732-8-L.JPG (58.29 KiB) Viewed 1377 times

[Demon of Undoing]

If you want to really learn to shoot a pistol accurately, take a .22 like pictured and a brick of 500 rounds. Go into some open range setting where there are rocks to hit or pinecones on the tree, odd junk ( I did this in a county landfill at eight), and stay there all day. Don't quit until you have emptied the entire box.

You will, in the course of that many rounds, probably get good enough to get bored and start working in trick shots, long shots, tiny target shots, called shots. On a range hitting paper is one thing, but when the target is the headrest of an old Ford, through the hole in the windshield, or that grapefruit hanging way far out of the fifteenth tree down the row from you, it takes on a whole new dimension.

But it occurred to me as I typed this that very likely, such opportunities to do things like that probably no longer exist. There is too much structure, too many people, too many lawsuits.

[Simple Minded]

If you want to really learn to shoot a pistol accurately, take a .22 like pictured and a brick of 500 rounds. Go into some open range setting where there are rocks to hit or pinecones on the tree, odd junk ( I did this in a county landfill at eight), and stay there all day. Don't quit until you have emptied the entire box.

You will, in the course of that many rounds, probably get good enough to get bored and start working in trick shots, long shots, tiny target shots, called shots. On a range hitting paper is one thing, but when the target is the headrest of an old Ford, through the hole in the windshield, or that grapefruit hanging way far out of the fifteenth tree down the row from you, it takes on a whole new dimension.

But it occurred to me as I typed this that very likely, such opportunities to do things like that probably no longer exist. There is too much structure, too many people, too many lawsuits.

Ahhhh...... the joys of growing up barbarian!! Those were the days! Targets were everywhere!

Walnuts, acorns, birds, crayfish, schools of minnows, bottles, cans, icicles, .....

How many times did you load a full tube in your Marlin 60 or magazine in your Ruger 10/22 then just fire as fast as you can at a mudhole or pond just to see the splatter?

And the only thing keeping us from forming a small army of anarchists and terrorizing the world was?

I do not envy the childhoods of most I know under the age of 40... sure sign of age... the past was always a better country...

[Marcus]

Those were the days . . I remember weekends and one whole summer spent like that . . we didn't know .22 shells came by the box, only in bricks.

(Okay, that last is a bit of an exaggeration but not much . . )

[Enki]

LOL, there was plenty of opportunity for such things when I was a kid. Old people, particularly boomers seem to have a deepseated desire to imagine that our childhoods sucked. It is a strange obsession.

[Demon of Undoing]

LOL, there was plenty of opportunity for such things when I was a kid. Old people, particularly boomers seem to have a deepseated desire to imagine that our childhoods sucked. It is a strange obsession.

Dude, if I try that anywhere near the places where I did it (or most anywhere else), I'd be in jail almost immediately for malicious conduct, negligent discharge of a firearm, possession of a firearm by a minor, probably concealing same because I was sneaking into the dump.

It's not our imagination. If you can't do that sort of thing, then yes, a childhood kinda sucked a little bit because of it. The high llano isn't probably a good baseline from which to disagree.

[Marcus]

LOL, there was plenty of opportunity for such things when I was a kid. Old people, particularly boomers seem to have a deepseated desire to imagine that our childhoods sucked. It is a strange obsession.

What are you talking about? I'm an "old" person, and I don't imagine my childhood sucked. Have no idea what yours might have been like . .

As for the past, things were very different for kids 50 and 60 years ago . . but how would you know? I remember spending a whole day shooting rats at the dump outside Charlevoix, Michigan (52 rats, 1 skunk, 1 crow) back in the early 50's . . couldn't do that today . . hell, the dump's not even there any more. What do they call dumps today? Sanitary landfills or some such?

[cdgt]

When I was in 16 and 17, I used to strap a gun on my back, get on my bicycle, no helmet, and ride through my residential neighborhood to get to the woods a mile or so away where I hunted squirrel and deer.

Today, they would probably call in a swat team. And that would just be for the bicycle helmet violation.

[Marcus]

Here's another for you, Tinker, true story:

The summer of '59 I was 19 and belonged to The Hangtown Gunslingers, a "fast draw" club in Placerville, California. We'd all dress up like cowboys, strap on our six-shooters, and met, Saturday nights I think, in the school gymnasium where we'd mess around, trying to find out who was the fastest gun. After the meeting we'd go downtown Placerville to a restaurant for pie and coffee, gunbelts and all. One night the waitress told us that a couple back-east tourists had been in during our previous visit. The tourist lady asked our waitress, "Goodness, do the men still wear guns out here?"

And you think things haven't changed . . .

[Ibrahim]

The summer of '59 I was 19 and belonged to The Hangtown Gunslingers, a "fast draw" club in Placerville, California. We'd all dress up like cowboys, strap on our six-shooters, and met,

[Marcus]

. . strap on our six-shooters, . .

Do Canadians even know what pistols are? . . .