On the Nature of Things | Forum

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Hoosiernorm wrote:

cdgt wrote:A Saiga 12 with a drum mag. Trying to defend against swarms like that, trap-shooting on steroids.

I hate to tell you this but most conventional forces would jam these bots immediately with simple EW countermeasures. They are only useful against non conventional forces like they have in Afghanistan and civilian targets who don't have EW capacity. Why do you think is was so easy for the Iranians to down the RQ-170.

I was under the impression that I was a civilian...

Typhoon wrote:dBVybnfmTIs

This must be video-game inspired.

cdgt wrote:

Hoosiernorm wrote:

cdgt wrote:A Saiga 12 with a drum mag. Trying to defend against swarms like that, trap-shooting on steroids.

I hate to tell you this but most conventional forces would jam these bots immediately with simple EW countermeasures. They are only useful against non conventional forces like they have in Afghanistan and civilian targets who don't have EW capacity. Why do you think is was so easy for the Iranians to down the RQ-170.

I was under the impression that I was a civilian...

Well of course you are...... until you start doing something that pisses someone off...

Hoosiernorm wrote:

cdgt wrote:

Hoosiernorm wrote:

cdgt wrote:A Saiga 12 with a drum mag. Trying to defend against swarms like that, trap-shooting on steroids.

I hate to tell you this but most conventional forces would jam these bots immediately with simple EW countermeasures. They are only useful against non conventional forces like they have in Afghanistan and civilian targets who don't have EW capacity. Why do you think is was so easy for the Iranians to down the RQ-170.

I was under the impression that I was a civilian...

Well of course you are...... until you start doing something that pisses someone off...

Inconceivable.

After a while, this gets into a Spy vs. Spy escalation of EW, EW hardening..., not the stuff of which I plan to partake.

The original demo that Typhoon posted showed a single, big device (itself its own large target), that had to get pretty darn close to its own targets--and didn't always connect at those short ranges. It would be relatively easy to bring down at that range, even without EW tools. A single shot 12ga with buckshot should suffice. (Now, if it could do its work at a quarter mile or so, that would be problematic...) Conversely, a swarm of quasi indiscriminant IED's would be a real challenge, the mother of all trapshooting events, with your (civilian) life on the line.

In my travels, I came across a discussion of this article:

How to Buy Your First Gun for Defense

which includes this little passage:

...

Most likely you want a handgun. They are small, easy to have in a place where you can get it quickly and easy to operate. Rifles can be very good for home defense but they are unwieldy and can be stronger than what you need and more difficult to operate. Shotguns are great for home defense. They are powerful, reliable, incredibly effective and relatively easy to use. On the down side they have considerable recoil, and if you are a new shooter it may be more difficult to get used to shooting it comfortably and you may be restricted on where you can practice shooting. Many ranges are handgun only.

...

I objected to the "do not pass go, go directly to handgun" advice.

Now, for CCW, no problem. Difficult to conceal a (legal) shotgun. But for a newbie's first gun a centerfire handgun? Seems like a recipe for disaster.

Thots?

cdgt wrote:

Hoosiernorm wrote:

cdgt wrote:

Hoosiernorm wrote:

cdgt wrote:A Saiga 12 with a drum mag. Trying to defend against swarms like that, trap-shooting on steroids.

I hate to tell you this but most conventional forces would jam these bots immediately with simple EW countermeasures. They are only useful against non conventional forces like they have in Afghanistan and civilian targets who don't have EW capacity. Why do you think is was so easy for the Iranians to down the RQ-170.

I was under the impression that I was a civilian...

Well of course you are...... until you start doing something that pisses someone off...

Inconceivable.

After a while, this gets into a Spy vs. Spy escalation of EW, EW hardening..., not the stuff of which I plan to partake.

The original demo that Typhoon posted showed a single, big device (itself its own large target), that had to get pretty darn close to its own targets--and didn't always connect at those short ranges. It would be relatively easy to bring down at that range, even without EW tools. A single shot 12ga with buckshot should suffice. (Now, if it could do its work at a quarter mile or so, that would be problematic...) Conversely, a swarm of quasi indiscriminant IED's would be a real challenge, the mother of all trapshooting events, with your (civilian) life on the line.

I would imagine the weapons platform would take advantage of night cover to evade simple swats at the rotors. I think it was the fact that such a platform is for hunting specific human beings on a very personal level is what bothered me. Imagine how many mini sortie hits you could perform at a very low cost. Cruise missiles are bad for collateral damage, imagine being able to overfly a target several thousand times with strike capabilities albeit primitive capacities for a few hundred dollars a day. Now add the capacity to rig an explosive to it that would detonate at about the same proximity as a suicide bomber. You could suicide bomb a village square into a ghost town in a matter of days.

cdgt wrote:How to Buy Your First Gun for Defense

Thots?

My thoughts are thinking about a first gun makes my head feel like it will explode.

The only real question is will it be a 22 or not. Toss a coin and get on with it I guess.

Mr. Perfect wrote:

cdgt wrote:How to Buy Your First Gun for Defense

Thots?

My thoughts are thinking about a first gun makes my head feel like it will explode.

The only real question is will it be a 22 or not. Toss a coin and get on with it I guess.

Except for CCW and a genuine commitment to extensive practice, I cannot imagine anything worse than a centerfire handgun as a first gun.

Mr. Perfect wrote:

cdgt wrote:How to Buy Your First Gun for Defense

Thots?

My thoughts are thinking about a first gun makes my head feel like it will explode.

The only real question is will it be a 22 or not. Toss a coin and get on with it I guess.

A sawed-off .20 gauge for home defense, a .45 ACP for carry . . simple as that . . .

Marcus wrote:

Mr. Perfect wrote:

cdgt wrote:How to Buy Your First Gun for Defense

Thots?

My thoughts are thinking about a first gun makes my head feel like it will explode.

The only real question is will it be a 22 or not. Toss a coin and get on with it I guess.

A sawed-off .20 gauge for home defense, a .45 ACP for carry . . simple as that . . .

Full Choke 20 gauge (Non Semi Automatic) they semi's jam when you need them the most. Don't saw it off because it will put too big a hole in the wall (Personal Experience). A 45 is too damn big to carry around all day and the holsters selections are between leather kink and military kink. Prefer a 38 any day largely due to size and ammo costs. If it's that close to shoot with a concealed weapon then it doesn't have to be especially accurate.

Hoosiernorm wrote:Full Choke 20 gauge (Non Semi Automatic) they semi's jam when you need them the most. Don't saw it off because it will put too big a hole in the wall (Personal Experience). A 45 is too damn big to carry around all day and the holsters selections are between leather kink and military kink. Prefer a 38 any day largely due to size and ammo costs. If it's that close to shoot with a concealed weapon then it doesn't have to be especially accurate.

Agree on the non-semi thing . . go for a pump . . even the sound of a round being racked is something of a deterrent.

Gotta go with the .45. Back in college ROTC our instructor, an Army colonel, told us the .45 ACP was simply the most devastating, man-stopping cartridge ever conceived . . hit a man anywhere with it, and he may not be dead, but he's out of commission. Our colonel said he was, by accident, shot through the palm of the hand by a .45, and it knocked him unconscious.

If I seriously believed I needed to carry, I want a round I can trust . . or at least think I can trust.

You guys ever ponder the reduction in size of military rounds over the years? Revolutionary War muskets were about .75 caliber; Civil War down to .59; Indian Wars at .45; Spanish-American used, what, a 30-40 Krag? The world wars . . .30 caliber? What now? .22?

Marcus wrote:

Hoosiernorm wrote:Full Choke 20 gauge (Non Semi Automatic) they semi's jam when you need them the most. Don't saw it off because it will put too big a hole in the wall (Personal Experience). A 45 is too damn big to carry around all day and the holsters selections are between leather kink and military kink. Prefer a 38 any day largely due to size and ammo costs. If it's that close to shoot with a concealed weapon then it doesn't have to be especially accurate.

Agree on the non-semi thing . . go for a pump . . even the sound of a round being racked is something of a deterrent.

Gotta go with the .45. Back in college ROTC our instructor, an Army colonel, told us the .45 ACP was simply the most devastating, man-stopping cartridge ever conceived . . hit a man anywhere with it, and he may not be dead, but he's out of commission. Our colonel said he was, by accident, shot through the palm of the hand by a .45, and it knocked him unconscious.

If I seriously believed I needed to carry, I want a round I can trust . . or at least think I can trust.

You guys ever ponder the reduction in size of military rounds over the years? Revolutionary War muskets were about .75 caliber; Civil War down to .59; Indian Wars at .45; Spanish-American used, what, a 30-40 Krag? The world wars . . .30 caliber? What now? .22?

Yes, but a .22 with a terminal seeker and nano-flechettes sub-munitions.

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Hoosiernorm wrote:Full Choke 20 gauge (Non Semi Automatic) they semi's jam when you need them the most. Don't saw it off because it will put too big a hole in the wall (Personal Experience).

Do tell.

Hoosiernorm wrote:A 45 is too damn big to carry around all day and the holsters selections are between leather kink and military kink. Prefer a 38 any day largely due to size and ammo costs. If it's that close to shoot with a concealed weapon then it doesn't have to be especially accurate.

Well, I've settled on a .40 S&W but have no illusions of awesome knockdown. But 15 round mags are comforting.

If you're going the revolver route (me and revolvers have a genetic incompatibility) I'd humbly suggest a compact .357 Mag (Ruger SP?) and shoot 95% .38 Spcls. But I'd carry it with the .357 Mags (125gr JHP, probably) loaded in it. If I carried a revolver. Of course a .44Mag / .44Spcl would be better, except the gun size / weight starts getting astronomical pretty fast.

If it is hand held, it is only going to be just so effective. High round count failures to stop have been documented with all handgun loads. I carry a .45 for a reason, but it's not such a good one that I think it quashes physics. First person I saw die was shot in the ass with a .22 ( .25? Don't remember). Found the artery junction near the hip just fine.

The caliber decrease for service rifles has occurred for lots of reasons, primarily advances in riflery and tech. Musket squares and firing on line are not really examples of high art. More industrial murder with poor tools. While gravelbelly target shooting has seen it's heyday pass, more realistic shooting is expected of modern troops than ever before. Troops acquire and engage faster, at greater ranges, than they have previously been able with the tools provided. Round for round accuracy is almost irrelevant. It comes down to this: you'd have to be a fool to pick anything anybody ever issued before something like a SCAR-L or an M4 SOPMOD. My poodle shooter isn't the equal of either of those things, but I'll take my rifle with a basic load over any M14, M1, M1903, etc. any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Size matters only so much. That said, if feasible, I would carry a 5" .44 as an every day gun over near anything. Moose happens.

Well I'm going to blow up some things here, but I have to say my favorite gun and the one I would carry everywhere if I could is my Desert Eagle (44mag). I LOOOVVVEEE that gun. I look for any opportunity to carry it.

It is of course un-concealable so I can't do that and if I have to do any kind of manual labor it gets in the way. But for hiking or wandering around it goes straight on, and my longer arm is a Marlin 30-30. Tremendously handy guns. I wear a Kahr TP40 for conceal, my Beretta 96 when I'm outside puttering around and the DE whenever I have the chance. The Marlin is the rifle I grab when heading out the door, in contrast to the AR or any shotgun. I sort of subconsciously came up with this combo about 6 months ago without realizing it. It's debatable whether I am in Grizzly country, but if it was an issue I would get the 45-70 and feel fine about it.

Now that I'm talking about it occurs to me that the scout rifle platform with the scout scope would be a pretty good grizzly bear gun also. Something in 338 or so. Just a thought, gotta tuck that away.

Now if there were gang bangers on the lawn it would be an AR or shotgun depending so you have to insert that. But for heading outdoors I'm really into the DE/30-30 lever combo.

I will say that for a long time I really did not even think of revolvers, but that has been changing. As such, a 357 mag may enter the equation. I have the DE conversion but for a gun that big there isn't any point.

And Hoosier, we've REALLY got to work on your sexualization of inanimate objects, I am now officially concerned.

it appeared in one of the joke lists that flows past my screen this morn but in reality its my dream weapon.



it fries bacon n eggs AND its got a proper cross guard.

cdgt wrote:

Hoosiernorm wrote:Full Choke 20 gauge (Non Semi Automatic) they semi's jam when you need them the most. Don't saw it off because it will put too big a hole in the wall (Personal Experience).

Do tell. .

Had a 20 gauge double barrel that had a defective firing pin and brought it to the gun smith (This is the same type weapon that my brother was injured with for the same reason. He replaced the firing pin and was showing me his handy work when he cocked the breach really quickly and the weapon discharged in his shop. Thank god no one was in that room because the shot pattern covered the wall almost completely. Since neither one of us could hear the other one talking was not an option and due to the immediate shock of the situation I simply took the weapon from him and left to go to another gun smith to have it repaired correctly.

cdgt wrote:

Hoosiernorm wrote:A 45 is too damn big to carry around all day and the holsters selections are between leather kink and military kink. Prefer a 38 any day largely due to size and ammo costs. If it's that close to shoot with a concealed weapon then it doesn't have to be especially accurate.

Well, I've settled on a .40 S&W but have no illusions of awesome knockdown. But 15 round mags are comforting.

If you're going the revolver route (me and revolvers have a genetic incompatibility) I'd humbly suggest a compact .357 Mag (Ruger SP?) and shoot 95% .38 Spcls. But I'd carry it with the .357 Mags (125gr JHP, probably) loaded in it. If I carried a revolver. Of course a .44Mag / .44Spcl would be better, except the gun size / weight starts getting astronomical pretty fast.

I hope you have a routine to keep the weapon out of the reach of others. Having them around always invites them to be picked up for some reason, which can lead to bad situations. In a safe box inside of a drawer that is not immediately available is a good spot.

Mr. Perfect wrote:And Hoosier, we've REALLY got to work on your sexualization of inanimate objects, I am now officially concerned.

Man I have seen guys show up for trap shoots and turkey shoots that look like bizarre cartoon versions of human beings. Dressed in everything from cowboy outfits to surplus military gear that is both odd and unrealistic. The amount of gear that is sold that is both non functional and actually limiting is really quite astounding. Some of the vendors at gun shows blow me away with the costume gear that they sell to enthusiast. It is really a subculture that derives its sense of identity from all sorts of oddities. After awhile one fetish is indistinguishable from the other

I'm not sure it goes that deep. I think for many people it's not really to do with sex.

Mr. Perfect wrote:I'm not sure it goes that deep. I think for many people it's not really to do with sex.

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it swims like a duck it's probably a duck.

Hoosiernorm wrote:

cdgt wrote:

Hoosiernorm wrote:Full Choke 20 gauge (Non Semi Automatic) they semi's jam when you need them the most. Don't saw it off because it will put too big a hole in the wall (Personal Experience).

Do tell. .

Had a 20 gauge double barrel that had a defective firing pin and brought it to the gun smith (This is the same type weapon that my brother was injured with for the same reason. He replaced the firing pin and was showing me his handy work when he cocked the breach really quickly and the weapon discharged in his shop. Thank god no one was in that room because the shot pattern covered the wall almost completely. Since neither one of us could hear the other one talking was not an option and due to the immediate shock of the situation I simply took the weapon from him and left to go to another gun smith to have it repaired correctly.

That's odd. Ordinarily a shotgun at indoors distance doesn't open up like that. I understand (haven't tried it) that the best way to achieve that effect (if you want a big spread at short distances) is to shoot a shotshell out of a rifled shotgun barrel.

Hoosiernorm wrote:

cdgt wrote:

Hoosiernorm wrote:A 45 is too damn big to carry around all day and the holsters selections are between leather kink and military kink. Prefer a 38 any day largely due to size and ammo costs. If it's that close to shoot with a concealed weapon then it doesn't have to be especially accurate.

Well, I've settled on a .40 S&W but have no illusions of awesome knockdown. But 15 round mags are comforting.

If you're going the revolver route (me and revolvers have a genetic incompatibility) I'd humbly suggest a compact .357 Mag (Ruger SP?) and shoot 95% .38 Spcls. But I'd carry it with the .357 Mags (125gr JHP, probably) loaded in it. If I carried a revolver. Of course a .44Mag / .44Spcl would be better, except the gun size / weight starts getting astronomical pretty fast.

I hope you have a routine to keep the weapon out of the reach of others. Having them around always invites them to be picked up for some reason, which can lead to bad situations. In a safe box inside of a drawer that is not immediately available is a good spot.

I certainly don't leave them laying around in plain sight. Right now, I only have a .22LR handgun for cheap practice. The Glock is coming soon, I think--looking for a good deal on a G23 police trade-in if I can find one. Fun show this weekend, so I'm hopeful. In the mean time, my Sub-2000 is my long barreled, shoulder-stocked 'handgun' and uses 15 round G22 mags. For protecting the dwelling, if one doesn't go the shotgun route, the Sub-2000 would serve most newbies better than a centerfire handgun. Much harder to shoot yourself with it.

Hoosiernorm wrote:

Mr. Perfect wrote:I'm not sure it goes that deep. I think for many people it's not really to do with sex.

If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck and it swims like a duck it's probably a duck.

It doesn't walk, quack or swim like a duck though.