France

[Parodite]

All laws are imposed on a minority who don't follow them.

This is true, but irrelevant since at that level of abstraction no meaningful discussion is possible. Might as well discuss dogs terrorizing cats. Cats performing "terrorist acts" on birds nests. Or animals deciding where do-not-kill applies and the please-do-kill begins, even without religious precepts driving them! Although.. with a little stretch of the definition "religious"... Ask Marcus how to do the trick, he knows how to prove that everyone is "a believer", for starters.

Why not discuss which type of society and set of laws we want to live in, why we prefer one over the other? What we would be willing to die for? Subjective preferences are not shameful. Just tell us which society you want to live in, and what minorities and behavior deserve the force of your lawful arm, the muscle to jail them, a rifle to kill, perhaps throw them out.

[Ibrahim]

1. Laws are never universal, they are rigidly applied to jurisdictions, and this has been the case for all of human history both from the beginnings of civilization to the present day. 2. All laws are based on moral precepts, most of which are religious. Don't murder, don't steal, these are both religious concepts as well as laws. You can't separate the two and the idea that you can is of of the many failed legacies of 20th century totalitarianism.

Your religious upbringing shows clearly in these statements..

I didn't have a "religious upbringing" but how kind of you to resort to baseless stereotypes in lieu of justifying your politics.

Laws may coincide with moral precepts, but natural law and human rights - which are the basic foundations of any acceptable legal system - existed before any religious or moral precepts.

This is just more preaching from your own secular/socialist religion. The only difference between you and I is that you want to impose your religion on people with violence and against democratic institutions.

. I don't care if a nation believes that the Sun revolves around the Earth, as long as they don't threaten to kill me if I state otherwise.

The only threats of violence have come from you. You want to overthrow governments that don't follow your secular/socialist religion.

[Ibrahim]

All laws are imposed on a minority who don't follow them.

This is true, but irrelevant since at that level of abstraction no meaningful discussion is possible.

You're not following. Endo wants to overthrow government which impose religion on some people, the original example given was prayer in schools. He thinks this imposition deserving of a violent overthrow of the democratically elected government and the imposition, by force, of a regime that reflects is personal preferences. So my elementary observation that all laws are imposed on a minority in the same way is relevant in the face of his extreme position.

[Endovelico]

All laws are imposed on a minority who don't follow them.

This is true, but irrelevant since at that level of abstraction no meaningful discussion is possible.

You're not following. Endo wants to overthrow government which impose religion on some people, the original example given was prayer in schools. He thinks this imposition deserving of a violent overthrow of the democratically elected government and the imposition, by force, of a regime that reflects is personal preferences. So my elementary observation that all laws are imposed on a minority in the same way is relevant in the face of his extreme position.

Thank you, Ibrahim. You finally got my point. Force may be used to overthrow any form of tyranny, including the religious type. Force may be used to restore liberty. Was it so difficult to get?...

[Ibrahim]

All laws are imposed on a minority who don't follow them.

This is true, but irrelevant since at that level of abstraction no meaningful discussion is possible.

You're not following. Endo wants to overthrow government which impose religion on some people, the original example given was prayer in schools. He thinks this imposition deserving of a violent overthrow of the democratically elected government and the imposition, by force, of a regime that reflects is personal preferences. So my elementary observation that all laws are imposed on a minority in the same way is relevant in the face of his extreme position.

Thank you, Ibrahim. You finally got my point. Force may be used to overthrow any form of tyranny, including the religious type. Force may be used to restore liberty. Was it so difficult to get?...

You want to crate tyranny, not overthrow it. You want to impose your personal subjective preferences through violence. This is the definition of fascism and tyranny.

[monster_gardener]

Thank You VERY Much for maintaining the Forum, Admins Typhoon & Ymix.

The question/problem seems to be what governments are allowed by the people to do..........

Even "democratic" governments........

Should any government be allowed to impose a religion on the people.....

I say NO!.........

And IMVHO religion and also Ibrahim's NSH opinion includes socialism/secularism.....

Though Ibrahim seems to say "Yes" on the imposition of Religion or at least "Yes" to imposition of religious education and religious rules........

Offhand, Given the Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey nature we humans have, the messy solution I see is for individuals to be so well armed and willing to use that control freaks of any sort will be hesitant to enforce any rules they have on the unwilling........

Charters like the Magna Carta and the Bill of Right/Rights of Man can be useful but given the Depraved Sinful Egotistical Chaos Monkey nature of human, the control freaks among us/uz will try to subvert them.......

IIRC Jefferson said something about the Tree of Liberty needing the blood of patriots and tyrants to survive.......

Sometimes that works well as it did for the Lumbee Indians..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hayes_Pond

But too often the control freaks, often alleged do-gooders, use things like that to justify more control.........

[Endovelico]

Thank you, Ibrahim. You finally got my point. Force may be used to overthrow any form of tyranny, including the religious type. Force may be used to restore liberty. Was it so difficult to get?...

You want to crate tyranny, not overthrow it. You want to impose your personal subjective preferences through violence. This is the definition of fascism and tyranny.

Police violence at the orders of fascist Erdogan

[Parodite]

All laws are imposed on a minority who don't follow them.

This is true, but irrelevant since at that level of abstraction no meaningful discussion is possible.

You're not following. Endo wants to overthrow government which impose religion on some people, the original example given was prayer in schools. He thinks this imposition deserving of a violent overthrow of the democratically elected government and the imposition, by force, of a regime that reflects is personal preferences. So my elementary observation that all laws are imposed on a minority in the same way is relevant in the face of his extreme position.

I suppose that a number of constitutional issues especially related to human rights can be a source of irreconcilable conflict. But a grey area where people have to do business and often compromise is normal especially in the public domain.

[Ibrahim]

Thank you, Ibrahim. You finally got my point. Force may be used to overthrow any form of tyranny, including the religious type. Force may be used to restore liberty. Was it so difficult to get?...

You want to crate tyranny, not overthrow it. You want to impose your personal subjective preferences through violence. This is the definition of fascism and tyranny.

Police violence at the orders of fascist Erdogan

Oh, I thought it was the NYPD breaking up Zucotti park.

Also, I know you're all bent out of shape about exposing yourself as a fascist, but these pics would logically go in the Turkey thread.

[monster_gardener]

Thank you, Ibrahim. You finally got my point. Force may be used to overthrow any form of tyranny, including the religious type. Force may be used to restore liberty. Was it so difficult to get?...

You want to crate tyranny, not overthrow it. You want to impose your personal subjective preferences through violence. This is the definition of fascism and tyranny.

Police violence at the orders of fascist Erdogan

Oh, I thought it was the NYPD breaking up Zucotti park.

Also, I know you're all bent out of shape about exposing yourself as a fascist, but these pics would logically go in the Turkey thread.

Thank You Very Much for your posts, Endo and Ibrahim......

But before Ibrahim mutilates another word like he does with "racism" perhaps we need to define "fascism.......

Some of my favorite definitions of Chaos Monkey Gang Philosophies oops I mean Political Philosophies including Fascism are contained in this gem.....

Socialism: You have two cows. The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor.
Communism: You have two cows. You give them to the Government, and the Government then gives you some milk.
Fascism: You have two cows. You give them to the Government, and the Government then sells you some milk.
Capitalism: You have two cows. You sell one and buy a bull.
Nazism: You have two cows. The Government takes both and shoots you.
New Dealism: You have two cows. The Government takes both, shoots one, buys milk from the other cow, then pours the milk down the drain.[7]

A quick and Wiki definition of Fascism below............

Fascism /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism[1][2] that came to prominence in mid-20th century Europe. Fascists seek to unify their nation through a totalitarian state that promotes the mass mobilization of the national community,[3][4] relying on a vanguard party to initiate a revolution to organize the nation on fascist principles.[5] Hostile to liberal democracy, socialism, and communism, fascist movements share certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism, ethnocentrism, and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation[3][6][7][8] and asserts that nations and races deemed superior should obtain living space by displacing ones deemed weak or inferior.[9]

Fascist ideology consistently invoked the primacy of the state. Leaders such as Benito Mussolini in Italy and Adolf Hitler in Germany embodied the state and claimed indisputable power. Fascism borrowed theories and terminology from socialism but applied them to what it saw as the more significant conflict between nations and races rather than to class conflict, and focused on ending the divisions between classes within the nation.[10] It advocated a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.[11] Fascism supports what is sometimes called a Third Position between capitalism and Marxist socialism.[12] Fascist movements emphasized a belligerent, virulent form of nationalism (chauvinism) and a fear of foreign people (xenophobia), which they frequently linked to an exaggerated ethnocentrism. The typical fascist state also embraced militarism, a belief in the rigors and virtues of military life as an individual and national ideal, meaning much of public life was organized along military lines and an emphasis put on uniforms, parades, and monumental architecture.

Influenced by national syndicalism, the first fascist movements emerged in Italy around World War I, combining elements of left-wing politics with more typically right-wing positions, in opposition to socialism, communism, liberal democracy and, in some cases, traditional right-wing conservatism. Although fascism is usually placed on the far right on the traditional left-right spectrum, fascists themselves and some commentators have argued that the description is inadequate.[13][14] Following the Second World War, few parties openly describe themselves as fascist and the term is more usually used pejoratively by political opponents. The term neo-fascist or post-fascist is sometimes applied more formally to describe parties of the far right with ideological similarities to, or roots in, 20th century fascist movements respectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

Fascist as insult


Following the defeat of the Axis powers in World War II, the term fascist has been used as a pejorative word,[56] often referring to widely varying movements across the political spectrum.[57] George Orwell wrote in 1944 that "the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless ... almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'".[57] Richard Griffiths argued in 2005 that "fascism" is the "most misused, and over-used word, of our times".[24] "Fascist" is sometimes applied to post-war organizations and ways of thinking that academics more commonly term "neo-fascist".[58]

Contrary to the common mainstream academic and popular use of the term, Communist states have sometimes been referred to as "fascist", typically as an insult. Marxist interpretations of the term have, for example, been applied in relation to Cuba under Fidel Castro and Vietnam under Ho Chi Minh.[59] Herbert Matthews, of the New York Times asked "Should we now place Stalinist Russia in the same category as Hitlerite Germany? Should we say that she is Fascist?"[60] J. Edgar Hoover wrote extensively of "Red Fascism".[61] Chinese Marxists used the term to denounce the Soviet Union during the Sino-Soviet Split, and likewise, the Soviets used the term to identify Chinese Marxists.[62]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Fascist_as_insult

[Endovelico]

I know you're all bent out of shape about exposing yourself as a fascist, but these pics would logically go in the Turkey thread.

I only wanted to show what your idea of democracy is...

[Ibrahim]

I know you're all bent out of shape about exposing yourself as a fascist, but these pics would logically go in the Turkey thread.

I only wanted to show what your idea of democracy is...

So your position is that Turkish police are too violent, therefore you want to overthrow the government with even greater force and impose your secularist utopia against an unwilling population. And you actually called this "liberty."

You love violence, just as long as the victims are different enough from you. Hence the skinhead gang a page or two back.

[Endovelico]

So your position is that Turkish police are too violent...

No. My position is that you feel police brutality is fine as long as it is supported by a majority of people...

[Ibrahim]

So your position is that Turkish police are too violent...

No. My position is that you feel police brutality is fine as long as it is supported by a majority of people...

Another transparent falsehood.

[Endovelico]

So your position is that Turkish police are too violent...

No. My position is that you feel police brutality is fine as long as it is supported by a majority of people...

Another transparent falsehood.

So you make a distinction between physical brutality and moral brutality. The former is reprehensible, the latter not... A glove-wearing fascist, I see...

[Ibrahim]

So your position is that Turkish police are too violent...

No. My position is that you feel police brutality is fine as long as it is supported by a majority of people...

Another transparent falsehood.

So you make a distinction between physical brutality and moral brutality. The former is reprehensible, the latter not... A glove-wearing fascist, I see...

This reply doesn't even make any sense.

[Endovelico]

So your position is that Turkish police are too violent...

No. My position is that you feel police brutality is fine as long as it is supported by a majority of people...

Another transparent falsehood.

So you make a distinction between physical brutality and moral brutality. The former is reprehensible, the latter not... A glove-wearing fascist, I see...

This reply doesn't even make any sense.

It wouldn't, to someone who thinks like you. Since the problem seems to be structural, I feel that continuing this discussion serves no purpose. You simply do not understand what I'm talking about.

[Typhoon]

E8ftyVQM5FE

[Parodite]

All laws are imposed on a minority who don't follow them.

This is true, but irrelevant since at that level of abstraction no meaningful discussion is possible.

You're not following. Endo wants to overthrow government which impose religion on some people, the original example given was prayer in schools. He thinks this imposition deserving of a violent overthrow of the democratically elected government and the imposition, by force, of a regime that reflects is personal preferences. So my elementary observation that all laws are imposed on a minority in the same way is relevant in the face of his extreme position.

If a democratic majority behaves bad with regard to minorities, such minorities may be justified to use violence against their government. For instance, if gay people are hanged with the consent of a democratic loony majority, I can not see why using violence as a way of self-defense would be fascist.. immoral.. On the contrary.

As for prayers on schools.. can't find what Endo said about it exactly. Link? He doesn't strike me as fascist, on the contrary. He just wants human rights of all majorities and minorities to be respected and protected.

[Ibrahim]

So your position is that Turkish police are too violent...

No. My position is that you feel police brutality is fine as long as it is supported by a majority of people...

Another transparent falsehood.

So you make a distinction between physical brutality and moral brutality. The former is reprehensible, the latter not... A glove-wearing fascist, I see...

This reply doesn't even make any sense.

It wouldn't, to someone who thinks like you. Since the problem seems to be structural, I feel that continuing this discussion serves no purpose. You simply do not understand what I'm talking about.

No, you don't understand the subjectivity and maliciousness of your own stated positions. Like our French skinheads, you're an immoral and violent man who believes he's "fighting the good fight."

[Ibrahim]

All laws are imposed on a minority who don't follow them.

This is true, but irrelevant since at that level of abstraction no meaningful discussion is possible.

You're not following. Endo wants to overthrow government which impose religion on some people, the original example given was prayer in schools. He thinks this imposition deserving of a violent overthrow of the democratically elected government and the imposition, by force, of a regime that reflects is personal preferences. So my elementary observation that all laws are imposed on a minority in the same way is relevant in the face of his extreme position.

If a democratic majority behaves bad with regard to minorities, such minorities may be justified to use violence against their government.

Not at issue here. Endo's laughable justification for fascist violence is the inclusion of religion in public life to any degree.

As for prayers on schools.. can't find what Endo said about it exactly. Link?

Go read the Turkey thread.

He doesn't strike me as fascist,

He didn't strike me as fascist until a couple of days ago, but there you go. Anyway why do I care about your opinion? You think its acceptable to harass people in the street based on their religion. I might as well ask a fish about flying.

[Ibrahim]

Oh, right, this is the France thread!

http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_g ... sId=318574

Pregnant Muslim woman attacked in Paris loses baby

Despite all medical efforts, a pregnant Muslim woman who was attacked by two Islamophobic men in the Paris suburb of Argenteuil on Thursday suffered a miscarriage and lost her baby, her lawyer said on Tuesday.

The 21-year-old Muslim woman, who was four months pregnant, was physically attacked by two men. The attackers first tried taking her headscarf off and later cut off her hair and tore part of her clothing. After she screamed out that she was pregnant, one of the attackers started kicking her in the stomach.

She was taken to Argenteuil hospital where she underwent treatment for injuries.

Daily Mail reported that the police said that the men had shouted racist insults at the woman, saying that the veil was no longer acceptable in France.

Harassing Muslims in the street, imposing secularism through violence.

[Endovelico]

All laws are imposed on a minority who don't follow them.

This is true, but irrelevant since at that level of abstraction no meaningful discussion is possible.

You're not following. Endo wants to overthrow government which impose religion on some people, the original example given was prayer in schools. He thinks this imposition deserving of a violent overthrow of the democratically elected government and the imposition, by force, of a regime that reflects is personal preferences. So my elementary observation that all laws are imposed on a minority in the same way is relevant in the face of his extreme position.

If a democratic majority behaves bad with regard to minorities, such minorities may be justified to use violence against their government. For instance, if gay people are hanged with the consent of a democratic loony majority, I can not see why using violence as a way of self-defense would be fascist.. immoral.. On the contrary.

As for prayers on schools.. can't find what Endo said about it exactly. Link? He doesn't strike me as fascist, on the contrary. He just wants human rights of all majorities and minorities to be respected and protected.

Parodite,

Ibrahim has lost the argument with me and now all he wants is to try and hurt my "image" no matter how ridiculous that makes him look. So, I am a "fascist"... I hadn't realized grown-up people could behave like that. Last time I was confronted with a similar attempt must have been in grade school...

[Ibrahim]

Ibrahim has lost the argument with me

Blatant falsehood. You were never able to justify your desire to use force to impose your subjective preferences. You gave up rather quickly actually.

and now all he wants is to try and hurt my "image"

So, I am a "fascist"... I hadn't realized grown-up people could behave like that.

Behave like fascists? Unfortunately common. You're not the first powerless man to wish he could visit physical violence on those he disagrees with.

[Parodite]

Parodite,

Ibrahim has lost the argument with me and now all he wants is to try and hurt my "image" no matter how ridiculous that makes him look. So, I am a "fascist"... I hadn't realized grown-up people could behave like that. Last time I was confronted with a similar attempt must have been in grade school...

To lie about, omit and misrepresent what people say here is one of Ibs Abu Goebbels Foxman's trademarks once his voodoo endowed brain believes he detected racism, Islamophobia, hatred of Muslims. Dong dong on the empty barrel and the dog starts barking.