China

[noddy]

we have credit ratings, all linked so any institution involved with money can get your score
we have health records, all linked, so any institution involved with healthcare and potentially insurance can get your score
we have no fly lists and watchlists, so any travel or movement of money can be rejected by government.
we have metadata collection and sometimes message collection on all communications on all platforms.
we have face recog security cameras on most public spaces
we have number place recog cameras on all magor roads.

I havent quite worked out yet what exactly this diabolical chinese social data thing does that is any different to what most westerners ignore about their own surveillance state.

my gut feeling is that like usual in south east asia, it will be a heavier, clumsier hand in application because so much of the population will be outside its rules they need to make a big show about the few they do catch.

the west, with urban living being so much more ubiquitous, will have a lighter touch because their is no escape from it.

its really hard for a westerner to understand just how little of a f*ck most villages in south east asia give about what government wants.

[crashtech66]

I was under the impression that the Chinese plan was to make this information or "score" public. That's a far cry from what's being implemented by private institutions in the Western world.

[noddy]

all of the above except credit rating is done by government, not private.

I accept making the score public is somewhat worse but the basic concept of an ever escalating permanent record that reduces your ability to participate in the world is the crucial bit and our system is as bad as theirs on that level.

[Simple Minded]

I'm in Vancouver on a regular basis, but always relieved to get back home where the population is measured in hundreds rather than millions.

Although I do enjoy its amenities, I get stressed out rather quickly in the city even though Vancouver isn't half as big as the least populous city on your list.

I understand and identify with your comments. Cultures where people look each other in the eye are very different cultures than those who don't.

Population density seems a very influential factor in determining ideology. Culture is local.

IME, lots of the common measures of society's group identities all disappear when two people look each other in the eye. No longer do any of the much publicized group ID labels apply. Suddenly, it's just two individuals interacting.

Whoa! I may have inadvertently stumbled upon the major cultural difference between cities and counties/rural areas.

No wonder we don't see eye to eye (pun intended).

home county: 750,000 people in 1367 square miles.
current region: 260,000 people in 2139 square miles.

[Simple Minded]

its really hard for a westerner to understand just how little of a f*ck most villages in south east asia give about what government wants.

Yep. Culture is local. Same in many places here also, even though most of us are no doubt less remote than villages in the jungles of SE Asia.

The Boogey Man of Big Brother goes away pretty quickly when one stops blogging about one's plan to fix the world.

Professional Bloggers/SJW's/CJW's don't have that luxury.

[Simple Minded]

Also perhaps of interest:

In China’s new surveillance state, everyone will be watched, reviewed and rated - James O’Malley, The Spectator, 15 November 2018
https://spectator.us/chinas-surveillance-state/

Social credit and a high-tech, all-seeing government will keep every citizen in line

On the face this seems like the promise of the Information Age fulfilled. "Now that we all know each other, we will all get along so much better."

https://www.fox.com/watch/4e9ac96523b45 ... 4f775facb/

But of course, with people being the way we are 1% information easily results in 99% assumption.
"noddy likes tomatoes? I always knew that bastard was _________!"

That and the fact that the administrators are no more angelic than the population at large........

[Typhoon]

. . .

its really hard for a westerner to understand just how little of a f*ck most villages in south east asia give about what government wants.

Heaven is high and the Emperor is far away.

天高皇帝远 | Tiān gāo, huángdì yuǎn

~ Chinese proverb

[noddy]

its really hard for a westerner to understand just how little of a f*ck most villages in south east asia give about what government wants.

Yep. Culture is local. Same in many places here also, even though most of us are no doubt less remote than villages in the jungles of SE Asia.

The Boogey Man of Big Brother goes away pretty quickly when one stops blogging about one's plan to fix the world.

Professional Bloggers/SJW's/CJW's don't have that luxury.

pretty much.

[noddy]

Heaven is high and the Emperor is far away.

天高皇帝远 | Tiān gāo, huángdì yuǎn

~ Chinese proverb

I hadnt heard that one, its good

[Doc]

. . .

its really hard for a westerner to understand just how little of a f*ck most villages in south east asia give about what government wants.

Heaven is high and the Emperor is far away.

天高皇帝远 | Tiān gāo, huángdì yuǎn

~ Chinese proverb

Just saw this:

FfLnFVzfKBs

[Ibrahim]

FfLnFVzfKBs

I ran into a few expats like this in South China. "Time for me, the protagonist of reality, to teach these morally atrophied Orientals about the proper way to behave." Nobody take this guy to Bangkok.



Since we are conducting anecdotal anthropology, the only time I had my pocket picked while traveling was in Rome. Upon returning home a colleague from an old Scots family told me "that's the Papists for you." I think he was joking, but I prefer to embrace the mystery.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

we have credit ratings, all linked so any institution involved with money can get your score
we have health records, all linked, so any institution involved with healthcare and potentially insurance can get your score
we have no fly lists and watchlists, so any travel or movement of money can be rejected by government.
we have metadata collection and sometimes message collection on all communications on all platforms.
we have face recog security cameras on most public spaces
we have number place recog cameras on all magor roads.

I havent quite worked out yet what exactly this diabolical chinese social data thing does that is any different to what most westerners ignore about their own surveillance state.

my gut feeling is that like usual in south east asia, it will be a heavier, clumsier hand in application because so much of the population will be outside its rules they need to make a big show about the few they do catch.

the west, with urban living being so much more ubiquitous, will have a lighter touch because their is no escape from it.

its really hard for a westerner to understand just how little of a f*ck most villages in south east asia give about what government wants.

Societies which have been until rather recently rural and poor also tack towards a retributive model of justice. I can see a certain appeal of Islam in the poorer aspects of Southeast Asia. A thief steals from you, cut his hand off. That this isn't happening much in the metropolitan mainland might be due to the disintegration of the family and clan, so that China experiences the worst of western civilisation before she can fully enjoy the fruits.......

[Ibrahim]

we have credit ratings, all linked so any institution involved with money can get your score
we have health records, all linked, so any institution involved with healthcare and potentially insurance can get your score
we have no fly lists and watchlists, so any travel or movement of money can be rejected by government.
we have metadata collection and sometimes message collection on all communications on all platforms.
we have face recog security cameras on most public spaces
we have number place recog cameras on all magor roads.

I havent quite worked out yet what exactly this diabolical chinese social data thing does that is any different to what most westerners ignore about their own surveillance state.

my gut feeling is that like usual in south east asia, it will be a heavier, clumsier hand in application because so much of the population will be outside its rules they need to make a big show about the few they do catch.

the west, with urban living being so much more ubiquitous, will have a lighter touch because their is no escape from it.

its really hard for a westerner to understand just how little of a f*ck most villages in south east asia give about what government wants.

Societies which have been until rather recently rural and poor also tack towards a retributive model of justice. I can see a certain appeal of Islam in the poorer aspects of Southeast Asia. A thief steals from you, cut his hand off. That this isn't happening much in the metropolitan mainland might be due to the disintegration of the family and clan, so that China experiences the worst of western civilisation before she can fully enjoy the fruits.......

Islam swept the formerly Hindu parts of Southeast Asia because it offered at least the potential of upward mobility that Hindu society in that era almost totally prevented. But China had a Confucian system (in theory) that was meritocratic (in theory) so Islam didn't really offer anything to the already skeptically-inclined Han.


As for pickpockets, this is just a feature of urban living, and in the larger, denser cities it tends to be organized along with the rest of the crime. So as a "how's it goin' eh?" suburban Canadian I was likewise shocked by some of these things in China, but would it be different in India? Brazil? Indonesia? It seems like an indictment of massive cities before its an indictment of any particular culture.

Let's be honest, who here hasn't stepped over or around a passed-out homeless person on a downtown street, here in the glorious West?

[kmich]

The “Surprise” of Authoritarian Resilience in China

[Doc]

The “Surprise” of Authoritarian Resilience in China

I have seen it claimed that the CCP leadership Used propaganda over the South China sea and Taiwan to the point that younger Chinese are now getting VPNs not to avoid the Chinese government but to defend it on international forums. They are highly xenophobic. Now the CCP and Xi are locked into their previous propaganda because they can't appear to be weak to their propagandized population. They won't survive it. Now their economy is crashing. China official economic numbers are fabricated and they do not have the means to collect the true numbers even if they wanted to. The CCP's strategy appears to have been that it would force the economic numbers to fit what they wanted. That is where the ghost cities came from where the now failing silk road came from A central planned state economy. BTW It even turns out Jack Ma is a party member.

[Typhoon]

The “Surprise” of Authoritarian Resilience in China

I have seen it claimed that the CCP leadership Used propaganda over the South China sea and Taiwan to the point that younger Chinese are now getting VPNs not to avoid the Chinese government but to defend it on international forums. They are highly xenophobic. Now the CCP and Xi are locked into their previous propaganda because they can't appear to be weak to their propagandized population. They won't survive it. Now their economy is crashing. China official economic numbers are fabricated and they do not have the means to collect the true numbers even if they wanted to. The CCP's strategy appears to have been that it would force the economic numbers to fit what they wanted. That is where the ghost cities came from where the now failing silk road came from A central planned state economy. BTW It even turns out Jack Ma is a party member.

Given how many predictions I've read regarding the imminent collapse of the CCP and/or the mainland China economy over the last several decades,
I'll believe it when it happens.

Pundits also predicted that as China developed a middle class it would naturally evolve towards a Western type of democracy and market-based economy.
Instead it devolved back into a Mao style cult of personality, in the form of the current leader Xi, but now with unprecedented levels of technology enabled monitoring and control.

Which only goes to show that predictions are difficult, especially about the future.

Quillette | China is gearing up for a long fight

Unlike the former Soviet Union, which was a military and ideological competitor [mostly in the Turd World and in parts of Western academia],
but never a political, cultural, and especially an economic one,
the US now faces, for the first time [since the collapse of the British Empire]*, a serious competitor on all fronts.

Despite all the issues of a Pax Americana, I have no desire to live in an era of a Pax Sinica.
Which is why as a outside observer I look on with dismay as Americans engage in furious internal ideological battles over bupkis.

*During the height of the Japanese Bubble Economy, pundits were predicting that the future would be Japanese.
However, Japan was only an economic competitor.

[Typhoon]

we have credit ratings, all linked so any institution involved with money can get your score
we have health records, all linked, so any institution involved with healthcare and potentially insurance can get your score
we have no fly lists and watchlists, so any travel or movement of money can be rejected by government.
we have metadata collection and sometimes message collection on all communications on all platforms.
we have face recog security cameras on most public spaces
we have number place recog cameras on all magor roads.

I havent quite worked out yet what exactly this diabolical chinese social data thing does that is any different to what most westerners ignore about their own surveillance state.

. . .

Well, so far, the West doesn't have the Study The Great Nation app to deal with.

[noddy]

we have credit ratings, all linked so any institution involved with money can get your score
we have health records, all linked, so any institution involved with healthcare and potentially insurance can get your score
we have no fly lists and watchlists, so any travel or movement of money can be rejected by government.
we have metadata collection and sometimes message collection on all communications on all platforms.
we have face recog security cameras on most public spaces
we have number place recog cameras on all magor roads.

I havent quite worked out yet what exactly this diabolical chinese social data thing does that is any different to what most westerners ignore about their own surveillance state.

. . .

Well, so far, the West doesn't have the Study The Great Nation app to deal with.

hah, not as explicitly as that atleast.

certainly plenty of dogmas you need to go along with if your in the public eye.

[noddy]

muslims in china have a quite wonderful set of rules they need to follow in an attempt to avoid being seen as extremists.

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/havi ... a68f5359a2

Owning a tent

Telling others not to swear

Speaking with someone who has travelled abroad

Owning welding equipment

Telling others not to sin

Owning extra food

Eating breakfast before the sun comes up

Merely knowing someone who has travelled abroad

Owning a compass

Arguing with an official

Publicly stating that China is inferior to some other country

Owning multiple knives

Sending a petition that complains about local officials

Having too many children

Abstaining from alcohol

Not allowing officials to sleep in your bed, eat your food, and live in your house

Having a VPN

Abstaining from cigarettes

Not having your government ID on your person

Having WhatsApp

Wailing, publicly grieving, or otherwise acting sad when your parents die

Not letting officials take your DNA

Watching a video filmed abroad

Wearing a scarf in the presence of the Chinese flag

Wearing a hijab (if you are under 45)

Going to a mosque

Praying

Fasting

Listening to a religious lecture

Not letting officials scan your irises

Not letting officials download everything you have on your phone

Not making voice recordings to give to officials

Speaking your native language in school

Speaking your native language in government work groups

Speaking with someone abroad (via Skype, WeChat, etc.)

Wearing a shirt with Arabic lettered writing on it

Having a full beard

Wearing any clothes with religious iconography

Not attending mandatory propaganda classes

Not attending mandatory flag-raising ceremonies

Not attending public struggle sessions (the public humiliation of political rivals)

Refusing to denounce your family members or yourself in these public struggle sessions

Trying to kill yourself when detained by the police

Trying to kill yourself when in the education camps

Performing a traditional funeral

Inviting multiple families to your house without registering with the police department

Being related to anyone who has done any of the above

[Simple Minded]

muslims in china have a quite wonderful set of rules they need to follow in an attempt to avoid being seen as extremists.

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/havi ... a68f5359a2

Wow! According to that list, every person I have ever met is a Muslim Extremist.

These must be the end times.

[Typhoon]

muslims in china have a quite wonderful set of rules they need to follow in an attempt to avoid being seen as extremists.

https://www.news.com.au/world/asia/havi ... a68f5359a2

An unenviable situation for the Uyghurs.

Historically national - cultural repression inspires resistance. Sometimes successful against all odds.

Despite all of the above prohibitions, probably the most powerful method available to the PRC is dilution; flooding the region with ethnic Han followed by intermarriage.

[Typhoon]

Nat Rev - Victor D. Hanson | China’s Brilliant, Insidious Strategy

In the end, China is confident that it now knows the U.S. only too well, and it is mastering the political, economic, cultural, and military methods of nullifying American advantages. And it may be right.

Perceptive.

[Typhoon]

Nat Rev - Victor D. Hanson | China’s Brilliant, Insidious Strategy

In the end, China is confident that it now knows the U.S. only too well, and it is mastering the political, economic, cultural, and military methods of nullifying American advantages. And it may be right.

Perceptive.

Quillette | When the Lion Wakes: The Global Threat of the Chinese Communist Party

China is a sleeping lion. Let her sleep, for when she wakes, she will shake the world.
~ Napoleon

It has become something of a truism to say that China will rise to a position of global dominance in the twenty-first century. All the evidence seems to support the thesis and we are flooded with the most fantastic figures charting the rise. Harvard political scientist Graham Allison treats us to a selection of these in his recent book Destined for War. He tells us that China’s GDP was less than $300 billion in 1980, a figure that had risen to $11 trillion by 2015. The country’s total trade with the outside world came to just $40 billion in 1980, but in 2015 it was $4 trillion—a hundredfold increase. Allison has plenty more shockers up his sleeve: “For every two-year period since 2008, the increment of growth in China’s GDP has been larger than the entire economy of India. Even at its lower growth in 2015, China’s economy created a Greece every sixteen weeks and an Israel every twenty-five weeks.” In fact, since the Great Recession of 2008, 40 percent of all the economic growth in the world has occurred in just one country: China. Allison quotes Lee Kuan Yew, Singapore’s founding father, for the coup de grâce: “It is not possible to pretend that this is just another big player. This is the biggest player in the history of the world.”1

If Lee was right, then there can be only one outcome. “This world will be China’s,” says the brother of Ye Cheng, the Communist Party billionaire who now controls Australia’s Port Darwin. It is time for China to “change the world where rules are set by foreigners,” according to Wang Jianlin, chairman of the Dalian Wanda Group and China’s second richest man. China will “lead the entire world on political, economic, military, and environmental issues,” in the words of president-for-life Xi Jinping. But when men like this use the word “China,” they mislead us. It will not be the Chinese people who rise to inherit the earth, who wake to shake the world. It will be the Communist Party.

One hopes that the CCP finds a way to screw up.

[Miss_Faucie_Fishtits]

Intentionally or by accident, the West is developing the equivalent of the Chinese reputational rating system. The New York Times describes how in Xinjiang "children are interrogated. Neighbors become informants. Mosques are monitored. Cameras are everywhere." Then the data is fed into a system and scored according to a Communist Party virtue rating system. Fact-checkers monitor social media to see who's expressed offensive opinions or joined any Hate Groups. The virtuous are rewarded but low scorers on Beijing's community guidelines can be stopped from traveling, excluded from admission to schools, banned from social media platforms, charged in court and doxxed.

https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/th ... l-nations/

Gotta include the accompanying photo file. Don't know what this suggests:



Num nums perhaps?......'>.......

[noddy]

Im not sure soft power is much of a Chinese speciality at this stage , they seem to be a bit blunt and more likely to just bribe local officials than do a proper hearts and minds takeover of the various places.

Whilst Im sure things are going to get ugly for their near neighbours, Im not so worried for the wider world because I cant really see them being non racist enough to allow the levels of commericial integration europe and america are capable of.