Did Mohammed Exist?

[Milo]

Ah, the method S was using? I'm not sure what that means.

My argument would be that it is surprising that M did not go with the overwhelming convention of the times, and get his name, and/or Allah's, and/or the Koran's; on a coin or temple somewhere... anywhere really.

Because Spencer is using non existent items to prove that by their non existence that Mo did not exist. I can not think of another non Roman military force that immediately set forth to destroy the currencies of conquered kingdoms. Mo brought a revolutionary idea to the ME of monotheism for the masses. Zoroastrianism didn't have great military success and the Jews would not bring non believers into their tribe. His success militarily and ideologically are a strong basis for his existence.

They are a strong basis for the existence of the military and ideological success.

Do you think that the existence of the Swiss Guard is proof of the existence of Jesus?

See what I mean. When you base the argument on non contingent elements then you get a logic that is flawed even though it makes complete sense. This of course is why when you look at US currency that you can conclude that we are all freemasons who are originally from Greece and worship eagles.

Your obtuseness is somewhat tiresome. I am merely saying that it was the convention for leaders to get on to coinage as soon as they could at time. Maybe M did not care to do that, and there is an argument that would be consistent with his religion. However, it is unusual and does beg some questioning.

However, your insistence that Spencer does not advance positive proofs against the existence of M just wrong. He does, several of them. You probably missed my edit above to highlight that. However, that I did not inform you does not change that you ran with an argument based of an incomplete understanding of what Spencer's book actually says.

Now, you can be like some, and attack the person making the argument, if you care for logical fallacies, or you can engage the argument itself.

[Milo]

Here's a short clip of Spencer talking about his book, where he identifies a sura which resembles the Christmass story, especially when one uses the Luxenberg method of looking to a Syro-Aramaic 'palimpsest' in the Koran.

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[Ibrahim]

Spencer's work doesn't contain any actual evidence to advance his argument, he draws conclusions from the absence of certain kinds of evidence he asserts should exist. Milo's "why no coins?!" argument is an example of this.

I have not read Spencer's book, but I know this because no positive evidence has been provided in this thread, and I'm sure it eagerly would have if it existed, and because I've read work by legitimate scholars in the field and know what evidence does and does not exist. Spencer has not discovered "new" evidence that an entire international community of credible peer-reviewed scholars missed.


I'm also puzzled by the link to the wikipedia article on "Christoph Luxenberg," which also provides no relevant evidence except the linguistic analysis of one professor writing under a pseudonym. Moreover the apparent basis of his argument, that Syriac Christianity is older than Islam, is a simply fact that proves nothing about the origins of Islam.

[Milo]

Spencer's work doesn't contain any actual evidence to advance his argument, he draws conclusions from the absence of certain kinds of evidence he asserts should exist. Milo's "why no coins?!" argument is an example of this.

I have not read Spencer's book, but I know this because no positive evidence has been provided in this thread, and I'm sure it eagerly would have if it existed, and because I've read work by legitimate scholars in the field and know what evidence does and does not exist. Spencer has not discovered "new" evidence that an entire international community of credible peer-reviewed scholars missed.


I'm also puzzled by the link to the wikipedia article on "Christoph Luxenberg," which also provides no relevant evidence except the linguistic analysis of one professor writing under a pseudonym. Moreover the apparent basis of his argument, that Syriac Christianity is older than Islam, is a simply fact that proves nothing about the origins of Islam.

So there's no evidence in his book and that evidence is bad. Your persistence is admirable!

[monster_gardener]

Ah, the method S was using? I'm not sure what that means.

My argument would be that it is surprising that M did not go with the overwhelming convention of the times, and get his name, and/or Allah's, and/or the Koran's; on a coin or temple somewhere... anywhere really.

Because Spencer is using non existent items to prove that by their non existence that Mo did not exist. I can not think of another non Roman military force that immediately set forth to destroy the currencies of conquered kingdoms. Mo brought a revolutionary idea to the ME of monotheism for the masses. Zoroastrianism didn't have great military success and the Jews would not bring non believers into their tribe. His success militarily and ideologically are a strong basis for his existence.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Hoosier Norm.

Mo brought a revolutionary idea to the ME of monotheism for the masses.

Maybe depending on what you mean. Just that Mo brought it or that he was first to bring it.

If you concede that Christians are monotheists, then Jews and Jesus are more likely contenders for first.......

Judaism was at one time an actively missionary religion. Jesus himself references this: "Cross land and sea to make a convert........"
The problem was at least for males, converting to Judaism HURTS: Circumcision
Plus those IIRC 613 rules.........
Sort of cuts down on the conversion rate.....

Christianity was definitely a religion for the masses: wants to convert everybody............

I am simplifying a bit but Mohammed (or his successors, as Ibrahim contends) contribution seems to have been to been to turn missionary work into a self financing Pirate franchise operation where as long as it is infidels, you can raid, rob, rape, slave and kill as long as you kickback the proper amount to the Caliph Pirate King, say your Pirate Prayers 5 times a day, and visit Pirate headquarters in Mecca once in your life and do the Prescribed Pirate ritual etc... In return,in addition to the loot and Booty you get in your raids, you get the support of your brother pirates in the Ummah and allegedly a nifty retirement in Paradise where more slavegrrls & boyz await..........

IIRC Nietzsche said Christianity was a religion for slaves*

I contend Islam is a religion for Pirates........
There have been plenty of them.........
Muslim Land pirates and Sea Pirates.......

*the masses maybe ...

[Ibrahim]

Spencer's work doesn't contain any actual evidence to advance his argument, he draws conclusions from the absence of certain kinds of evidence he asserts should exist. Milo's "why no coins?!" argument is an example of this.

I have not read Spencer's book, but I know this because no positive evidence has been provided in this thread, and I'm sure it eagerly would have if it existed, and because I've read work by legitimate scholars in the field and know what evidence does and does not exist. Spencer has not discovered "new" evidence that an entire international community of credible peer-reviewed scholars missed.


I'm also puzzled by the link to the wikipedia article on "Christoph Luxenberg," which also provides no relevant evidence except the linguistic analysis of one professor writing under a pseudonym. Moreover the apparent basis of his argument, that Syriac Christianity is older than Islam, is a simply fact that proves nothing about the origins of Islam.

So there's no evidence in his book and that evidence is bad.

That is a misrepresentation of what I have said. There is no evidence, what remains is argument based on the absence of evidence.

An honest rendering of your statement above would be "there's no evidence in the book so the argument is bad."

Your persistence is admirable!

I can talk about this subject as long as you'd like. I have a deeper well to draw upon than you do.

[Milo]

Spencer's work doesn't contain any actual evidence to advance his argument, he draws conclusions from the absence of certain kinds of evidence he asserts should exist. Milo's "why no coins?!" argument is an example of this.

I have not read Spencer's book, but I know this because no positive evidence has been provided in this thread, and I'm sure it eagerly would have if it existed, and because I've read work by legitimate scholars in the field and know what evidence does and does not exist. Spencer has not discovered "new" evidence that an entire international community of credible peer-reviewed scholars missed.


I'm also puzzled by the link to the wikipedia article on "Christoph Luxenberg," which also provides no relevant evidence except the linguistic analysis of one professor writing under a pseudonym. Moreover the apparent basis of his argument, that Syriac Christianity is older than Islam, is a simply fact that proves nothing about the origins of Islam.

So there's no evidence in his book and that evidence is bad.

That is a misrepresentation of what I have said. There is no evidence, what remains is argument based on the absence of evidence.

An honest rendering of your statement above would be "there's no evidence in the book so the argument is bad."

Your persistence is admirable!

I can talk about this subject as long as you'd like. I have a deeper well to draw upon than you do.

Well there's a YT vid above with an example (there's 6 more vids where that came from) of positive evidence that M did not exist. You can deny it all you like, in fact, I wish you would!

[Ibrahim]

Spencer's work doesn't contain any actual evidence to advance his argument, he draws conclusions from the absence of certain kinds of evidence he asserts should exist. Milo's "why no coins?!" argument is an example of this.

I have not read Spencer's book, but I know this because no positive evidence has been provided in this thread, and I'm sure it eagerly would have if it existed, and because I've read work by legitimate scholars in the field and know what evidence does and does not exist. Spencer has not discovered "new" evidence that an entire international community of credible peer-reviewed scholars missed.


I'm also puzzled by the link to the wikipedia article on "Christoph Luxenberg," which also provides no relevant evidence except the linguistic analysis of one professor writing under a pseudonym. Moreover the apparent basis of his argument, that Syriac Christianity is older than Islam, is a simply fact that proves nothing about the origins of Islam.

So there's no evidence in his book and that evidence is bad.

That is a misrepresentation of what I have said. There is no evidence, what remains is argument based on the absence of evidence.

An honest rendering of your statement above would be "there's no evidence in the book so the argument is bad."

Your persistence is admirable!

I can talk about this subject as long as you'd like. I have a deeper well to draw upon than you do.

Well there's a YT vid above with an example (there's 6 more vids where that came from) of positive evidence that M did not exist. You can deny it all you like, in fact, I wish you would!

Clever, if dishonest, of you to claim there is positive evidence hidden somewhere within seven YouTube videos put up by God knows whom that you know I'm not going to watch. This "argument by YouTube" is a simple way of sabotaging any conversation.

If you think there is evidence in there, summarize it and present it. I doubt you will. So far you've only produced "why no coins?!" But if you do have the courage to produce this crushing "evidence" I'm sure I can easily correct whatever misapprehensions you have about it.

[Hoosiernorm]

Ok Milo I need you to dispute this!

[monster_gardener]

Ok Milo I need you to dispute this!

Thank you Very Much for your post, Hoosiernorm.

Cute kitty......

Reminds me of "Space Cat"

And she has her own stylish Pink Space Suit with a stylish rainbow photon drive!

Hello Kitty may be envious!

Hope we can get this Caitian/MechPurr to share the tech with us for some cat treats: maybe Temptations or "Meow Mix"

Will probably have to throw in some Catnip and Cat Thyme......

And the video lasts 100 hours!

Wow!

Is this a contender for longest video on the web?

[Parodite]

I thought the issue is not whether or not Mohammed existed (maybe, maybe not; no conclusive evidence either way anyways), as the issue is not whether or not God exists (can't be proven/disproven either way either), but the fact the we can doubt and especially are allowed to doubt. In the past and at present in many countries you will have to fear for your life still if you express such doubts, reject the fundamental dogma. That is what we are all against and up against here, right?

[Milo]

I thought the issue is not whether or not Mohammed existed (maybe, maybe not; no conclusive evidence either way anyways), as the issue is not whether or not God exists (can't be proven/disproven either way either), but the fact the we can doubt and especially are allowed to doubt. In the past and at present in many countries you will have to fear for your life still if you express such doubts, reject the fundamental dogma. That is what we are all against and up against here, right?

Certainly I am.

[AzariLoveIran]

.

I thought the issue is not whether or not Mohammed existed (maybe, maybe not; no conclusive evidence either way anyways), as the issue is not whether or not God exists (can't be proven/disproven either way either), but the fact the we can doubt and especially are allowed to doubt. In the past and at present in many countries you will have to fear for your life still if you express such doubts, reject the fundamental dogma. That is what we are all against and up against here, right ?

.

We in a war between civilizations and cultures

Everything now plays in that environment, theater of war in culture and civilization

If, West, one, attacks religion or G_D .. say, defending and representing Atheism .. if so .. ME people (who feel addressed when westerners attacking MO & Islam) will not object, matter of fact, some sizable ME faction will even agree

But, if Islam or MO or Koran is singled out and attacked .. ME people feel that as an backdoor attack to ME civilization, culture etc

One frequently reads, even once mentioned on this fora, Western civilization superior to eastern

well .. this is what all boils to

east thinks eastern civilization much superior to western, and, west thinks other way round

so ,

as said

this a war


.

[Mr. Perfect]

Some say that Az, some say that...

Would be too bad if true.

[AzariLoveIran]

.

Some say that Az, some say that...

Would be too bad if true.

.

unfortunately, fact on the ground, attest to that

West, mistook material advances to superiority of western civilization

2B fair, MP, this is what Hitler mindset represented

When Hitler came to power, Germany had 6 million unemployed

and

@ the height of Hitler era, Germany had shortage of workers and challenging the world in all disciplines, all this in a few short years

That was mistaken for superiority of "National Socialism" .. leading to consider 7/8 of humanity as "Untermensch"

Sad to say, most policy & methods of Nazi era, stealthy, is introduced in west, though, by different name

but facts are facts



.

[Mr. Perfect]

Well Az if true that would be too bad, Hitler this time will succeed, ME peoples powerless to stop us. We now have drones/robots, able to liquidate all ME people whenever Obama feels like it. Seems like he really feels like it. I hoped it would not come to this...

[AzariLoveIran]

.

Well Az if true that would be too bad, Hitler this time will succeed, ME peoples powerless to stop us. We now have drones/robots, able to liquidate all ME people whenever Obama feels like it. Seems like he really feels like it. I hoped it would not come to this..

.

what you say, might have been possible 100 yrs ago, B4 nuclear and other stuff

Now, you more vulnerable than you might think

nuclear not the real scary one


.

[monster_gardener]

.

Well Az if true that would be too bad, Hitler this time will succeed, ME peoples powerless to stop us. We now have drones/robots, able to liquidate all ME people whenever Obama feels like it. Seems like he really feels like it. I hoped it would not come to this..

.

what you say, might have been possible 100 yrs ago, B4 nuclear and other stuff

Now, you more vulnerable than you might think

nuclear not the real scary one

Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

nuclear not the real scary one

What do you think is the scary one?

Biowar is another bad bugbear for me.

But Nukes have that push button ease of use about them........

And near instant gratification..........

Biowar might well be responded to with nukes and vis versa

In anycase, another reason to get US and us the World off this 3rd Rock from the Sun and dispersed into Space Colonies.....

A reason that engineering has the potential to be the Highest cultural achievement.......

Art that saves lives.......

[AzariLoveIran]

.

.

.

Well Az if true that would be too bad, Hitler this time will succeed, ME peoples powerless to stop us. We now have drones/robots, able to liquidate all ME people whenever Obama feels like it. Seems like he really feels like it. I hoped it would not come to this..

.

what you say, might have been possible 100 yrs ago, B4 nuclear and other stuff

Now, you more vulnerable than you might think

nuclear not the real scary one

Thank You Very Much for your post, Azari.

nuclear not the real scary one

What do you think is the scary one?

Biowar is another bad bugbear for me.

But Nukes have that push button ease of use about them........

And near instant gratification..........

Biowar might well be responded to with nukes and vis versa

In anycase, another reason to get US and us the World off this 3rd Rock from the Sun and dispersed into Space Colonies.....

A reason that engineering has the potential to be the Highest cultural achievement.......

Art that saves lives......

.

Nuclear stuff has a distinct signature .. is known who's who .. and .. can .. be countered as such

not so many biological stuff

In history, "Plagues" have decimated, wiped out, whole nations,

Biological stuff can be in many forms .. wiping out the crop, leading to famine, or plagues, or deceases, AIDS just a teaser .. nations could become sterile, fertility collapsing

and and and

IMVVHO, nuke is the most harmless one

West, unwisely, continuously lowering the bar, underestimating the blow-back

A good sample is , IRAN

west, Rumsfeld and Reagan, stupidly, pumped Saddam with all deadly stuff, you name it, Saddam got it

well .. Mr. Rumsfeld , did America not sign the biological and chemical weapon treaty ? ?

and ? ?

1000s of Iranians with burned lungs still in hospital

Saddam's rocket fell on Iranian cities with western chemical warheads

when Saddam threatened Iran with Biological weapon that West had supplied, Iran stopped the war

well

now

West paying through the nose

because Iranian people have now the knowledge of making nuclear bomb and rocket to deliver it

now, you go figure

gini out of the bottle

people got the message that all those treaties signed by west not worth paper written on

well

really stupid

said many times , times have changed

Monster, what will win the day, is :

good thoughts, good words and good deeds

military power was castrated

all west can do, is bomb

feels good for a while

but

you can bet the farm on vicious blow-back


.

[AzariLoveIran]

!cid_C1DA5660457645A9B1C17E2B7B742413@FamilyComputer.jpg (108.26 KiB) Viewed 900 times

[Ibrahim]

Anybody have any more evidence/arguments to present in defense for the Spencer theory? Anybody want to summarize the big bombshell from the YouTube vids?

[Milo]

Anybody have any more evidence/arguments to present in defense for the Spencer theory? Anybody want to summarize the big bombshell from the YouTube vids?

By far the best argument against Mohammed's existence is that he went around boning six-year-old girls!

[Parodite]

Anybody have any more evidence/arguments to present in defense for the Spencer theory? Anybody want to summarize the big bombshell from the YouTube vids?

I am ok he existed. Many people existed that time. Why not he?

[Ibrahim]

Well that's that, then. So much for Spencer's third-rate "scholarship."

Let's do this again next time he produces another opus.

[Marcus]

Well that's that, then. So much for Spencer's third-rate "scholarship."
Let's do this again next time he produces another opus.

Day late and a dollar short . . the idea is out there, and it will grow . .