Egyptian Presidential Election

[Ibrahim]

I remember some time ago that liberals said the MB was dead,would never become a important political force.

I never saw anyone claim this. Perhaps you could cite some examples?


Quite probably we are checking different sources.

[Ibrahim]

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... 25?sp=true

Egypt's Islamist president begins building government
By Edmund Blair and Alastair Macdonald

CAIRO (Reuters) - Mohamed Morsy of the Muslim Brotherhood sets about building a civilian administration for Egypt on Monday that can heal a divisive history of oppression and coax a mistrustful army into relaxing its grip on power.

Behind the scenes, talks were already under way between the Islamists and generals to resolve disputes that blew up this month over steps by the ruling military council to hem in the powers of the first freely elected president Egypt has known.

Cairo's Tahrir Square, theatre of the revolution that ousted Hosni Mubarak, exploded in joy - and relief - on Sunday as Morsy was declared the narrow but convincing winner of last weekend's presidential run-off against Ahmed Shafik, another scion of the military establishment which has ruled Egypt for 60 years.

The celebrations continued through an unforgettable night after Morsy won by 3.5 percentage points or some 880,000 votes.

Those in Egypt and beyond who feared a win for Shafik might have spelled the end of the Arab Spring acknowledged a triumph for the popular will, and for the army which accepted it. From Syria's opposition came word that Cairo was again a "source of hope" for a people "facing a repressive war of annihilation."

[AzariLoveIran]

.

Ashton, Israel, America, Europe, Cameron .. everybody welcomes Morsi's election as Egyptian president


well



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[AzariLoveIran]

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NYT - Morsi will have to spar with the generals who stripped much of the power from the presidency


Military holds the power .. B4 handing over to Morsi, military stripped all powers from presidency

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He will have to spar with the generals, who, just after the election, stripped much of the power from the presidency, . .

[..]

Asked if Mr. Morsi had what it takes to overcome those challenges, Mr. Habib said, “No, he doesn’t.”

Mr. Morsi, 60 an engineer with a doctorate in materials science from the University of Southern California, taught engineering at another California college and at Zagazig University in the Nile Delta.

A lackluster, accidental candidate, he was chosen to run after the Brotherhood’s first choice, Khairat el-Shater, was disqualified.

Married with five grown children, Mr. Morsi has a reputation as a religious conservative and a company man, an enforcer for the group who brooks little internal dissent. During the campaign, he portrayed himself as a defender of strict religious values one minute, a moderate courting liberals the next — doing little to burnish his reputation.

“Morsi is an accident of history. He’s a fairly unremarkable guy,” said Shadi Hamid, a fellow at the Brookings Doha Center. “I guess the real question is, can he change?”

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[Ibrahim]

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... 25?sp=true

Egypt's Islamist president takes revolution to palace
CAIRO (Reuters) - Mohamed Mursi, Egypt's first freely elected president whose powers have already been curbed by the army, began work on a coalition on Monday after touring his new palace, once home of Hosni Mubarak who banned his movement for three decades.

Declared winner on Sunday a week after a tumultuous run-off vote that pitted him against a former air force chief, the Islamist faces the challenge of meeting sky-high expectations in a nation tired of turmoil while the economy is on the ropes.

...

Egyptian newspapers welcomed Mursi's win over Ahmed Shafik, Mubarak's last prime minister, as a victory for the people, although many more liberal-minded Egyptians worry his conservative group will slowly whittle away at social freedoms.

...

As president, Mursi can appoint the cabinet. His aides say he has already reached out to politicians from outside the Brotherhood such as reformist Mohamed ElBaradei, who has yet to publicly respond. But legislative powers remain with the army while the parliament is dissolved, restricting his power to act.

Egypt's army-appointed government, led by al-Ganzouri who also served in the 1990s as prime minister under Mubarak, submitted its resignation on Monday but was asked to stay on temporarily until Mursi, who has yet to take the oath of office, put a team together, Information Minister Ahmed Anis said

"The revolution reaches the republican palace," wrote Al-Shorouk newspaper. Another, Al-Akhbar, quoted from Mursi's victory speech: "I am a servant of the people and an employee of the citizens".

It is a sentiment widely spoken: the sense that at last, perhaps, Egyptians have a leader who can be "fired".

Celebrations in Cairo's Tahrir Square - theatre of the revolution that overthrew Mubarak - extended through the night. Some Brotherhood followers were still celebrating, surprised by their victory that broke a six-decade tradition of presidents plucked from the military.

[Azrael]

It may be better for Egyptian democracy if Shafik wins. If Morsi wins, most likely the Muslim brotherhood would cut a deal with the military and the revolution would be over.

Now Morsy has won, but if the military respects the result of the election and relinquishes power then what is that but democracy? And if they don't then what is that but the denial of democracy, which will in turn mean the extension of the revolution?

But the military and Morsi could always split things down the middle, more or less.

The real test is always succession. Assuming Morsy has some powers, and the new parliament gets to draft some kind of constitution, the test will be, as it always is, whether or not that constitution would be observed, and if Morsy accepts defeat in subsequent open elections allowing the change of power along with electoral will that is essential in a democracy.

I agree.

But the mere fact of the Muslim Brotherhood's existence doesn't really have anything to do with the electoral process or democracy.

Sure; but that wasn't what I was saying. The MB has cut deals with the military (and Mubarak) in the past, and could do so again.

I should note that, over the last few days, there have been some good signs from Morsi (a female and Christian VP, for example).

[Ibrahim]

Well, the military banned, jailed and tortured them in the past. The fact that Morsy is President at all indicates some kind of "deal" with the military, but how else to proceed? Between Morsy and the former general and influential spy network apparachik it's hard to see Morsy being worse for the Egyptian revolution.

Anyway to me the positive is that Egyptians voted in what observers agree was a legitimate election, and the man they voted for is now President. What comes next is of course important, but the first step has been taken.

[Azrael]

Well, the military banned, jailed and tortured them in the past. The fact that Morsy is President at all indicates some kind of "deal" with the military, but how else to proceed? Between Morsy and the former general and influential spy network apparachik it's hard to see Morsy being worse for the Egyptian revolution.

You might be right.

Anyway to me the positive is that Egyptians voted in what observers agree was a legitimate election, and the man they voted for is now President.

Agreed.

What comes next is of course important, but the first step has been taken.

Agreed.

Note: I edited my post right above yours before I saw your response (there seem to be some website issues). As I said in my edit, there have been some good signs.

[Azrael]

duplicate post (website issue?)

[Ibrahim]

Well, the military banned, jailed and tortured them in the past. The fact that Morsy is President at all indicates some kind of "deal" with the military, but how else to proceed? Between Morsy and the former general and influential spy network apparachik it's hard to see Morsy being worse for the Egyptian revolution.

You might be right.

Anyway to me the positive is that Egyptians voted in what observers agree was a legitimate election, and the man they voted for is now President.

Agreed.

What comes next is of course important, but the first step has been taken.

Agreed.

Note: I edited my post right above yours before I saw your response (there seem to be some website issues). As I said in my edit, there have been some good signs.

This site was slow/acting up a bit for me this afternoon as well.

Obviously there is lots that can go wrong in Egypt, and if you look at countries the world over this is a hard thing to get right anywhere. My only point in this is that there is no better way for thing to realistically have happened so far. The military conceding Morsy's election is already better than I thought things could have gone. If the civilian government is allowed to legislate, and if Morsy doesn't turn out to be an autocrat or a maniac, then this has a pretty good chance of working out.

[Mr. Perfect]

I guess Ibs has a pretty low expectation of what Arabs can do.

[Zack Morris]

I guess Ibs has a pretty low expectation of what Arabs can do.

Things seem to be working remarkably well. Just a few years ago, all of this would have been unthinkable. People have to work things out themselves because clearly, as decades of dictatorship showed, a dictatorial regime cannot (and has no incentive) to do it. It would be insane to keep trying to do the same thing if it doesn't work, as you say. Only an durian would think that the 'geniuses' at the State Department could manage to contain hundreds of millions of people from North Africa to Pakistan indefinitely, right?

[Ibrahim]

Things seem to be working remarkably well. Just a few years ago, all of this would have been unthinkable.

My position exactly. The line from people who hate Arabs/Muslims has consistently been "everything isn't immediately perfect, haha stupid Arabs your revolution is a failure and I'm thrilled." This is clearly the position of a child. The only reasonable approach is to recognize both advances and issues that still need to be address. Cautious optimism is the least we owe to people overthrowing dictators. All the more so if your country was bankrolling that dictator for decades.

People have to work things out themselves

This is another key point, or perhaps even less a point and more a moral precept. Egyptians (or Greeks or anybody else) may vote themselves right into the dumpster, but that's their prerogative. What's the alternative?

Only an durian would think that the 'geniuses' at the State Department could manage to contain hundreds of millions of people from North Africa to Pakistan indefinitely, right?

I think the US government is less about national-building and more about kill-lists. The former was too hard, too expensive, and didn't really interest the locals for the most part.

[monster_gardener]

It may be better for Egyptian democracy if Shafik wins. If Morsi wins, most likely the Muslim brotherhood would cut a deal with the military and the revolution would be over.

Now Morsy has won, but if the military respects the result of the election and relinquishes power then what is that but democracy? And if they don't then what is that but the denial of democracy, which will in turn mean the extension of the revolution?

But the military and Morsi could always split things down the middle, more or less.

The real test is always succession. Assuming Morsy has some powers, and the new parliament gets to draft some kind of constitution, the test will be, as it always is, whether or not that constitution would be observed, and if Morsy accepts defeat in subsequent open elections allowing the change of power along with electoral will that is essential in a democracy.

I agree.

But the mere fact of the Muslim Brotherhood's existence doesn't really have anything to do with the electoral process or democracy.

Sure; but that wasn't what I was saying. The MB has cut deals with the military (and Mubarak) in the past, and could do so again.

I should note that, over the last few days, there have been some good signs from Morsi (a female and Christian VP, for example).

Thank you VERY Much for your post, Azrael.

I should note that, over the last few days, there have been some good signs from Morsi (a female and Christian VP, for example).

I sincerely hope you are right.........

Please do tell more....... Good to hear some good news for a change......

What I have been hearing is that the new fashion is getting your beard long and prayer bruise dark as fast as possibly plus assaulting the women in Tarir Square though there as some men who do defend them.....

Hope you are right and this doesn't end up like Iraq did for the Christians under Stupid Uz.....

Would like to see an Egypt where the Beauty Salon Ladies place the bruises on the Religious Police wannabes' rears instead of their foreheads.....

Might set a precedent for elsewhere but that is being VERY optimistic.......

[Mr. Perfect]

I guess Ibs has a pretty low expectation of what Arabs can do.

Things seem to be working remarkably well. Just a few years ago, all of this would have been unthinkable. People have to work things out themselves because clearly, as decades of dictatorship showed, a dictatorial regime cannot (and has no incentive) to do it. It would be insane to keep trying to do the same thing if it doesn't work, as you say. Only an durian would think that the 'geniuses' at the State Department could manage to contain hundreds of millions of people from North Africa to Pakistan indefinitely, right?

You are so very, very young. The right wing wanted to democratize, iow was "thinking" (as in thinkable) of democratizing the ME in 2001. We had elections in Iraq a long time ago, and elections in Pali lands. And the voted for Hamas! There is just so much stuff you just don't know.

[Mr. Perfect]

This is clearly the position of a child.

yeah, on that;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_Brotherhood

Its most famous slogan, used worldwide, is "Islam is the solution."[4]

The Brotherhood's stated goal is to instill the Qur'an and Sunnah as the "sole reference point for ...ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, community ... and state".

The Brotherhood's credo was and is, "God is our objective; the Quran is our law, the Prophet is our leader; Jihad is our way; and death for the sake of God is the highest of our aspirations.

Good luck to you.

[Egyptians may vote themselves right into the dumpster, but that's their prerogative. What's the alternative?

Maybe think about the wording a little bit better next time.

As for me and my house;

[Mr. Perfect]

Ibs, how do you think gay marriage is going to play out? Tinker? Any ideas?

On the issue of women and gender the Muslim Brotherhood interprets Islam conservatively. Its founder called for "a campaign against ostentation in dress and loose behavior", "segregation of male and female students", a separate curriculum for girls, and "the prohibition of dancing and other such pastimes ... "[16]

[Ibrahim]

http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNews/i ... TR20120628

Egypt's army, Islamists tussle over Mursi's oath

By Marwa Awad

CAIRO (Reuters) - Egypt's presidency planned to reveal on Thursday how Islamist President-elect Mohamed Mursi would be sworn in at the weekend in a ceremony whose symbolism the Muslim Brotherhood and interim military rulers have both struggled to shape.

With the oath-taking and a planned army handover of power to the president only two days away, there was still no official word on how an important moment in Egypt's transition would unfold.

Army sources said the handover segment would be delayed from Saturday, without giving a reason. They set no new date.

Mursi's office promised a statement later in the day but did not say if differences with the army had been resolved.

The Brotherhood wanted the president sworn in by parliament in line with past custom, but an army-backed court dissolved the Islamist-dominated lower house earlier this month. The generals said the same court should hear Mursi take his oath of office.

The army council that has ruled Egypt since pushing former President Hosni Mubarak aside to calm a popular uprising last year has promised to hand back control by July 1.

[Milo]

For a hated institution that apparently has no popular support outside of the people it's paying, and tepid support with the people it is paying, the Egyptian military has played its cards very shrewdly indeed. It seems to me that someone is whispering in their ear, likely the United States/Saudi Arabia. The Muslim brotherhood is a huge threat to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The salafist party in Egypt is backed by Saudi Arabia and apparently the military is as well now, at least, backed as a spoiler.

[AzariLoveIran]

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For a hated institution that apparently has no popular support outside of the people it's paying, and tepid support with the people it is paying, the Egyptian military has played its cards very shrewdly indeed. It seems to me that someone is whispering in their ear, likely the United States/Saudi Arabia. The Muslim brotherhood is a huge threat to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. The salafist party in Egypt is backed by Saudi Arabia and apparently the military is as well now, at least, backed as a spoiler.

.

yes, true

Saudi and US, both, behind vale, controlling the military

the wild card is the Egyptian people .. my senses say, they lookin to Iran

time will tell


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[Ibrahim]

For a hated institution that apparently has no popular support outside of the people it's paying, and tepid support with the people it is paying, the Egyptian military has played its cards very shrewdly indeed. It seems to me that someone is whispering in their ear, likely the United States/Saudi Arabia.

I think you mean cutting them billion dollar cheques. Great analysis though.

Also strange to assume that an organization that has run an internal security apparatus for decades somehow needs external advice on clinging to power. As though "hold on as tight as you can" is some masterstroke.

The Muslim brotherhood is a huge threat to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

Well, not he MB specifically but various religious conservative parties, sure. Good thing they have all those US weapons and US-trained troops to gun down any democracy protesters that happen to turn out. It's return on the investment of buying all of those Congressmen.

This is right up the alley for those who'd rather see Arabs and Muslims murdered than allowed to vote.

[Zack Morris]

You are so very, very young. The right wing wanted to democratize, iow was "thinking" (as in thinkable) of democratizing the ME in 2001. We had elections in Iraq a long time ago, and elections in Pali lands. And the voted for Hamas! There is just so much stuff you just don't know.

The right wing invaded Iraq, murdered a bunch of civilians, and then 'democratized' it by handing out contracts and political appointments to buddies like Haliburton and Chalabi. I'm sure you would have disliked it if the Spanish or the French had attempted to 'democratize' the New England colonies. The Egyptians democratizing themselves, that's another thing altogether.

[Zack Morris]

Ibs, how do you think gay marriage is going to play out? Tinker? Any ideas?

On the issue of women and gender the Muslim Brotherhood interprets Islam conservatively. Its founder called for "a campaign against ostentation in dress and loose behavior", "segregation of male and female students", a separate curriculum for girls, and "the prohibition of dancing and other such pastimes ... "[16]

I think we'll worry about the treatment of gays right here in our own country first. If any of the above comes to pass in Egypt, we can denounce them for it then, but we should start with cleaning up our own backyard first. Maybe you'd like to help?

[Mr. Perfect]

Clinton invaded the Balkans, murdered a bunch of civilians, and then 'democratized' it by handing out contracts and political appointments to buddies like Haliburton and Chalabi.

Fixed.

I'm sure you would have disliked it if the Spanish or the French had attempted to 'democratize' the New England colonies. The Egyptians democratizing themselves, that's another thing altogether.

I don't know, it worked pretty well in Japan and Germany, the conventional wisdom is now that it isn't possible in the ME. Who is the real loser in that case I wonder. Either way, the reason democracy became unthinkable in the ME was because of you guys.

[Zack Morris]

I don't know, it worked pretty well in Japan and Germany, the conventional wisdom is now that it isn't possible in the ME.

Germany and Japan: a Western nation and a nation trying hard to Westernize itself. Both nations with similar cultural attitudes toward governance and modernization, with a stable separation of religion and the public square, that went to war with us on terms familiar to us. Exactly like the middle east.