Spengler Discovers Dangerous Circumcision

[Taboo]

This whole discussion is pointless. From the get-go, circumcised people will be biased in favor of circumcision, while non-circumcised people will think it an abomination.

From an objective perspective, it is a weird thing to do. I mean, if it weren't for the weird religious mandate from some desert-living folks three millenia ago, I doubt anyone would on their own come up with the idea "Hey, let's chop a chunk of the baby's penis off. Wouldn't that be a good idea?"

Zach, lets sum it all up.
Medically, there are a few benefits. There's some varying evidence as to how big, but at a minimum, some marginal medical benefits.

Medical complications are always possible in surgery. In large studies of infant circumcision in the United States, reported inpatient complication rates range from 0.2% to 2.0%, according to the CDC. For populations numbering in the hundreds of millions, that's not a trivial amount, especially given the minor disease protection benefits it's supposed to confer.

It's a little easier for parents to deal with hygiene in the diaper years.

Cite please?

Aesthetically, most tend to agree it looks better. Chix diggit. Anecdotally, I hear that gay dudes tend to agree.

I think it's a matter of what you grew up with. If your sisters/daughters only do circumcised guys, they'll take that as the norm. If they live in a country where that's not the case, the norm is uncircumcised. Moreover, girls will tend to see mostly erect versions of penises, which are not that different looking either way.

If it's done in infancy a few days after birth, it's a minor thing. Some numbing gel, the kid cries a bit, and then they get over it a few hours later. It can be done by one doctor in his office. Adult circumcision is a minor surgery, but a surgery nonetheless. Requires a surgical crew and an OR, and knocks a dude out effectively for several days. It's also about 20 times more expensive to circumcise an adult.

And infinitely more expensive than not doing it at all.

Circumcision has no real medical harms. The worst that can be claimed is that there is a minor reduction in sensitivity. Enough to prevent sexual enjoyment? No.

Assuming that you're not part of the 0.2-2% who get serious complications, like your kid's penis becoming infected and falling off.

So some marginal benefits medically, some aesthetic benefits, no real harms, and it's much cheaper and easier to do it to an infant than to an adult. Why is this an issue again?

I agree that there's no point in arguing. It will never get banned in places where lots of adults have had it done to them, may be banned in places where they are a tiny minority.

[Demon of Undoing]

I just want to say that I'm against anything that might, even in theory, make your penis fall off. I don't care if doing something would create renewable energy for the future and destroy Darth Vader, if it might lead to a break up of the Big Roy and The Twins trio, I'm agin' it.

[monster_gardener]

Thank you Very Much for the Thread, Hoosier Norm.

If someone else brought this up already, my apologies/hat tip/scoop to you..........

If it's OK to abort a male baby before birth for the convenience of the parents, why the big deal about circumcision 7 days after birth.........

[anderson]

Thank you Very Much for the Thread, Hoosier Norm.

If someone else brought this up already, my apologies/hat tip/scoop to you..........

If it's OK to abort a male baby before birth for the convenience of the parents, why the big deal about circumcision 7 days after birth.........

What a silly point. Abortion is about ripping apart a still living child by applying a high powered vacuum while the child is still in the womb.

Circumcision is about mutilation.

I don't know where you get off making the comparison.

[Hoosiernorm]

Thank you Very Much for the Thread, Hoosier Norm.

If someone else brought this up already, my apologies/hat tip/scoop to you..........

If it's OK to abort a male baby before birth for the convenience of the parents, why the big deal about circumcision 7 days after birth.........

What a silly point. Abortion is about ripping apart a still living child by applying a high powered vacuum while the child is still in the womb.

Circumcision is about mutilation.

I don't know where you get off making the comparison.

Abortion isn't illegal in Germany that's the comparison. You can murder a fetus and the state says that's not a problem but if one of the Jews or Muslims does something the state then says that's a problem. Sort of lop sided logic if you ask me.

[anderson]

Thank you Very Much for the Thread, Hoosier Norm.

If someone else brought this up already, my apologies/hat tip/scoop to you..........

If it's OK to abort a male baby before birth for the convenience of the parents, why the big deal about circumcision 7 days after birth.........

What a silly point. Abortion is about ripping apart a still living child by applying a high powered vacuum while the child is still in the womb.

Circumcision is about mutilation.

I don't know where you get off making the comparison.

Abortion isn't illegal in Germany that's the comparison. You can murder a fetus and the state says that's not a problem but if one of the Jews or Muslims does something the state then says that's a problem. Sort of lop sided logic if you ask me.

I am aware. I was using humour to riff on this topsy turvy reality.

[Hoosiernorm]

Thank you Very Much for the Thread, Hoosier Norm.

If someone else brought this up already, my apologies/hat tip/scoop to you..........

If it's OK to abort a male baby before birth for the convenience of the parents, why the big deal about circumcision 7 days after birth.........

What a silly point. Abortion is about ripping apart a still living child by applying a high powered vacuum while the child is still in the womb.

Circumcision is about mutilation.

I don't know where you get off making the comparison.

Abortion isn't illegal in Germany that's the comparison. You can murder a fetus and the state says that's not a problem but if one of the Jews or Muslims does something the state then says that's a problem. Sort of lop sided logic if you ask me.

I am aware. I was using humour to riff on this topsy turvy reality.

[Milo]

Thank you Very Much for the Thread, Hoosier Norm.

If someone else brought this up already, my apologies/hat tip/scoop to you..........

If it's OK to abort a male baby before birth for the convenience of the parents, why the big deal about circumcision 7 days after birth.........

What a silly point. Abortion is about ripping apart a still living child by applying a high powered vacuum while the child is still in the womb.

Circumcision is about mutilation.

I don't know where you get off making the comparison.

Abortion isn't illegal in Germany that's the comparison. You can murder a fetus and the state says that's not a problem but if one of the Jews or Muslims does something the state then says that's a problem. Sort of lop sided logic if you ask me.

I am aware. I was using humour to riff on this topsy turvy reality.

I was saying earlier that this could lead to back alley circumcisions.

All the same arguments work (I'm pro-choice BTW)

[monster_gardener]

Thank you Very Much for the Thread, Hoosier Norm.

If someone else brought this up already, my apologies/hat tip/scoop to you..........

If it's OK to abort a male baby before birth for the convenience of the parents, why the big deal about circumcision 7 days after birth.........

What a silly point. Abortion is about ripping apart a still living child by applying a high powered vacuum while the child is still in the womb.

Circumcision is about mutilation.

I don't know where you get off making the comparison.

Abortion isn't illegal in Germany that's the comparison. You can murder a fetus and the state says that's not a problem but if one of the Jews or Muslims does something the state then says that's a problem. Sort of lop sided logic if you ask me.

I am aware. I was using humour to riff on this topsy turvy reality.

I was saying earlier that this could lead to back alley circumcisions.

All the same arguments work (I'm pro-choice BTW)

Thank you Very Much for your post, Milo.

I'm pro-life but "The laborer is worthy of her hire"............

If we of the Pro-Life camp want to stop abortions, IMVHO, we need to be willing to pay for it........

For example, if a woman wants a non medically necessary abortion, and we Lifers want that to be prohibited, we Lifers need to be willing to pay either directly or through our taxes for not only the cost of the childbirth and orphanage/adoption procedure if she chooses to give the child up but also pay a wage while she carries the baby......And for a Nor-Plant procedure or similar to make sure this doesn't happen again for a long time.......

Some of these expenses could be offset by adoptive parents or possibly the biological father (it ain't free) but doing the right thing is still gonna hurt.
I suspect that some of uz lifers want to do right too cheaply.... want all the costs to fall on the mother or maybe the father/boyfriend too... but not on our pocket book..........

I make this suggestion knowing that it may increase support for abortion, thought that is not my intention..........

On the local talk show, one of the themes of some callers is welfare mothers breeding children that they the taxpayers have to support...
They should count their blessings..... Russia is so desperate for babies that IIRC Putin instituted a day off from work to make a baby with prizes for the family which had a baby exactly 9 months later..





By the way, there was a strange case on TV today, a mother carrying twins one of whom was a Down's (Trisomy 21) baby was in a dispute with her husband over whether to abort the Down's baby while attempting to allow the normal baby to come to term. Mother had had 2 previous miscarriages and was getting conflicting medical advice. One doctor was saying abort the Down's baby because it might cause a miscarriage. Another said that trying to abort just one carried grave risks for the other baby too and better to let both try to come to full term. Mother inclined to abort the Down's baby. Father wanted to let the pregnancy proceed naturally.
Judge ruled to let the mother decide....

[Taboo]

Thank you Very Much for the Thread, Hoosier Norm.

If someone else brought this up already, my apologies/hat tip/scoop to you..........

If it's OK to abort a male baby before birth for the convenience of the parents, why the big deal about circumcision 7 days after birth.........

I can't think of any countries where it's ok to abort male babies. Maybe a fist-trimester conceptus, before any nerve terminations are even developed, but that's obviously not a baby.

More pragmatically, a newborn (and any fetuses past 6th Month in many places) is afforded full citizen rights, and therefore benefits from legal protections a 3-week blastocyte does not receive.

[Taboo]

So typical: when you can't address my arguments, bring up a completely different topic.

I am SO surprised. Were you surprised? I was surprised. (insert eye-roll smiley about here)

[Alexis]

I just want to say that I'm against anything that might, even in theory, make your penis fall off. I don't care if doing something would create renewable energy for the future and destroy Darth Vader, if it might lead to a break up of the Big Roy and The Twins trio, I'm agin' it.

Fully seconded.

About Darth Vader: in the version of "Return of the Jedi" which I've seen, Luke Skywalker doesn't defeat Darth Vader by having his own penis fall off. But then, I saw this movie as a child: maybe there's an adult-rated version of this movie somewhere?

[Alexis]

I can't think of any countries where it's ok to abort male babies. Maybe a fist-trimester conceptus, before any nerve terminations are even developed, but that's obviously not a baby.

More pragmatically, a newborn (and any fetuses past 6th Month in many places) is afforded full citizen rights, and therefore benefits from legal protections a 3-week blastocyte does not receive.

I don't know where you are from, Taboo, but I guess that just like me you are a citizen of a country other than the US of A.

In the land of the free and the home of the brave, abortion is legal at any stage of pregnancy:

The official report of the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee, issued in 1983 after extensive hearings on the Human Life Amendment (proposed by Senators Orrin Hatch and Thomas Eagleton), stated what substantially remains true today:

“ Thus, the [Judiciary] Committee observes that no significant legal barriers of any kind whatsoever exist today in the United States for a mother to obtain an abortion for any reason during any stage of her pregnancy. ”

[Alexis]

Medical complications are always possible in surgery. In large studies of infant circumcision in the United States, reported inpatient complication rates range from 0.2% to 2.0%, according to the CDC. For populations numbering in the hundreds of millions, that's not a trivial amount, especially given the minor disease protection benefits it's supposed to confer.

Looking it up, I found the following which may be of interest:

The psychological

The British Medical Association (BMA) states that "it is now widely accepted, including by the BMA, that this surgical procedure has medical and psychological risks." Milos and Macris (1992) argue that circumcision encodes the perinatal brain with violence and negatively affects infant-maternal bonding and trust.
(...)
Moses et al. (1998) state that "scientific evidence is lacking" for psychological and emotional harm, citing a longitudinal study which did not find a difference "in relation to a number of developmental and behavioural indices."
(...)
Boyle et al. (2002) state that circumcision may result in psychological harm, including post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), citing a study reporting high rates of PTSD among Filipino boys after either ritual or medical circumcision.

The complicational

more specific estimates have included 2–10%[12] and 0.2–0.6%. (...) The median risk of serious complications was 0% in both cases.
According to the American Medical Association (AMA), blood loss and infection are the most common complications, but most bleeding is minor and can be stopped by applying pressure.
(...)
Circumcisions may remove too much or too little skin. If insufficient skin is removed, the child may still develop phimosis in later life. Other complications include concealed penis, urinary fistulas, chordee, cysts, lymphedema, ulceration of the glans, necrosis of all or part of the penis, hypospadias, epispadias and impotence. Kaplan stated "Virtually all of these complications are preventable with only a modicum of care" and "most such complications occur at the hands of inexperienced operators who are neither urologists nor surgeons."
(...)
Although deaths have been reported, the American Academy of Family Physicians states that death is rare, and cites an estimated death rate of 1 infant in 500,000 from circumcision. The penis is thought to be lost in 1 in 1,000,000 circumcisions.

The sexual

Waldinger et al. recruited 500 men (98 circumcised and 261 not-circumcised) from five countries: the Netherlands, United Kingdom, Spain, Turkey, and the United States and studied their ejaculation times during sexual intercourse. (...) Comparison of circumcised (N = 98) and not-circumcised (N = 261) men in countries excluding Turkey resulted in median IELT values of 6.7 minutes (0.7–44.1 minutes) in circumcised compared with 6.0 minutes (0.5–37.4 minutes) in not-circumcised men (not significant).
(...)
Kim and Pang found that 20% reported that their sex life was worse after circumcision and 6% reported that it had improved. They concluded that "there was a decrease ... sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings." (...) Kigozi et al. reported finding "no trend in satisfaction among circumcised men". The authors concluded that "[a]dult male circumcision does not adversely affect sexual satisfaction or clinically significant function in men". (...) Shen et al. reported that adult circumcision appeared to result in improved satisfaction in 34 cases (of 95 adults being circumcised), the association was statistically significant. (...) Cortés-González et al. found no statistically significant differences in terms of overall sexual satisfaction (p=0.15), pain during intercourse (p=0.23), or enjoyment of intercourse (p=0.32). (...) Frisch et al. reported that circumcised and uncircumcised men were "equally likely to report incomplete sexual needs fulfilment in the last year".

Summing it up:
- Various results of medical studies on potential psychological risks to circumcision: some report risks, some do not
- Complications when they occur (0.2% to 10% risk depending on estimates) are minor, serious complications are prevented when the operator is experienced and a surgeon / urologist
- Death risk and penis loss risk are very small (1 to 2 cases per million)
- No statistically significant variation in intercourse duration between circumcised and uncircumcised men
- No difference in sexual satisfaction according to most studies, minority of studies report decreased satisfaction, minority of studies report increased satisfaction

[Taboo]

no significant legal barriers of any kind whatsoever exist today in the United States for a mother to obtain an abortion for any reason during any stage of her pregnancy.

Must be why such an astronomical number of them happen in the last 20 weeks.



And why are we talking about this, anyway. I thought we were busy trying to argue that a needless medical surgery that produces complications in 0.2-2% of cases for millions of boys is a perfectly rational thing to do.

[Typhoon]

Thank you Very Much for the Thread, Hoosier Norm.

If someone else brought this up already, my apologies/hat tip/scoop to you..........

If it's OK to abort a male baby before birth for the convenience of the parents, why the big deal about circumcision 7 days after birth.........

What a silly point. Abortion is about ripping apart a still living child by applying a high powered vacuum while the child is still in the womb.

Circumcision is about mutilation.

I don't know where you get off making the comparison.

Abortion isn't illegal in Germany that's the comparison. You can murder a fetus and the state says that's not a problem but if one of the Jews or Muslims does something the state then says that's a problem. Sort of lop sided logic if you ask me.

I am aware. I was using humour to riff on this topsy turvy reality.

I was saying earlier that this could lead to back alley circumcisions.

All the same arguments work (I'm pro-choice BTW)

Speaking of back alleys . . . is this report accurate?

Iowa Republicans seek to halt Medicaid funded abortions for rape victims

If so, then what is wrong with these people?

[YMix]

If so, then what is wrong with these people?

They're being consistent. A child's life is supposed to be sacred, regardless of how it was conceived (willingly or not).

Yeah, I know...

[Hoosiernorm]

Thank you Very Much for the Thread, Hoosier Norm.

If someone else brought this up already, my apologies/hat tip/scoop to you..........

If it's OK to abort a male baby before birth for the convenience of the parents, why the big deal about circumcision 7 days after birth.........

I can't think of any countries where it's ok to abort male babies. Maybe a fist-trimester conceptus, before any nerve terminations are even developed, but that's obviously not a baby.

More pragmatically, a newborn (and any fetuses past 6th Month in many places) is afforded full citizen rights, and therefore benefits from legal protections a 3-week blastocyte does not receive.

So if it's just a piece of flesh it's ok, but if it's a piece of flesh it's not ok................



Yeah

[Taboo]

So if it's just a piece of flesh it's ok, but if it's a piece of flesh it's not ok................
Yeah

The depth and quality of your analysis is awe-inspiring.

So by your own analysis, if it's not ok to abort, it's just as much an abomination to circumcise a child before he is of an age where he can consent.

Thanks for making my argument for me.

[Hoosiernorm]

So if it's just a piece of flesh it's ok, but if it's a piece of flesh it's not ok................
Yeah

The depth and quality of your analysis is awe-inspiring.

So by your own analysis, if it's not ok to abort, it's just as much an abomination to circumcise a child before he is of an age where he can consent.

Thanks for making my argument for me.

So we should wait until the age of consent to figure out of a child wants to be aborted, fine by me.

[Milo]

Medical complications are always possible in surgery. In large studies of infant circumcision in the United States, reported inpatient complication rates range from 0.2% to 2.0%, according to the CDC. For populations numbering in the hundreds of millions, that's not a trivial amount, especially given the minor disease protection benefits it's supposed to confer.

Looking it up, I found the following which may be of interest:

The psychological

The British Medical Association (BMA) states that "it is now widely accepted, including by the BMA, that this surgical procedure has medical and psychological risks." Milos and Macris (1992) argue that circumcision encodes the perinatal brain with violence and negatively affects infant-maternal bonding and trust.
(...)
Moses et al. (1998) state that "scientific evidence is lacking" for psychological and emotional harm, citing a longitudinal study which did not find a difference "in relation to a number of developmental and behavioural indices."
(...)
Boyle et al. (2002) state that circumcision may result in psychological harm, including post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), citing a study reporting high rates of PTSD among Filipino boys after either ritual or medical circumcision.

The complicational

more specific estimates have included 2–10%[12] and 0.2–0.6%. (...) The median risk of serious complications was 0% in both cases.
According to the American Medical Association (AMA), blood loss and infection are the most common complications, but most bleeding is minor and can be stopped by applying pressure.
(...)
Circumcisions may remove too much or too little skin. If insufficient skin is removed, the child may still develop phimosis in later life. Other complications include concealed penis, urinary fistulas, chordee, cysts, lymphedema, ulceration of the glans, necrosis of all or part of the penis, hypospadias, epispadias and impotence. Kaplan stated "Virtually all of these complications are preventable with only a modicum of care" and "most such complications occur at the hands of inexperienced operators who are neither urologists nor surgeons."
(...)
Although deaths have been reported, the American Academy of Family Physicians states that death is rare, and cites an estimated death rate of 1 infant in 500,000 from circumcision. The penis is thought to be lost in 1 in 1,000,000 circumcisions.

The sexual

Waldinger et al. recruited 500 men (98 circumcised and 261 not-circumcised) from five countries: the Netherlands, United Kingdom, Spain, Turkey, and the United States and studied their ejaculation times during sexual intercourse. (...) Comparison of circumcised (N = 98) and not-circumcised (N = 261) men in countries excluding Turkey resulted in median IELT values of 6.7 minutes (0.7–44.1 minutes) in circumcised compared with 6.0 minutes (0.5–37.4 minutes) in not-circumcised men (not significant).
(...)
Kim and Pang found that 20% reported that their sex life was worse after circumcision and 6% reported that it had improved. They concluded that "there was a decrease ... sexual enjoyment after circumcision, indicating that adult circumcision adversely affects sexual function in many men, possibly because of complications of the surgery and a loss of nerve endings." (...) Kigozi et al. reported finding "no trend in satisfaction among circumcised men". The authors concluded that "[a]dult male circumcision does not adversely affect sexual satisfaction or clinically significant function in men". (...) Shen et al. reported that adult circumcision appeared to result in improved satisfaction in 34 cases (of 95 adults being circumcised), the association was statistically significant. (...) Cortés-González et al. found no statistically significant differences in terms of overall sexual satisfaction (p=0.15), pain during intercourse (p=0.23), or enjoyment of intercourse (p=0.32). (...) Frisch et al. reported that circumcised and uncircumcised men were "equally likely to report incomplete sexual needs fulfilment in the last year".

Summing it up:
- Various results of medical studies on potential psychological risks to circumcision: some report risks, some do not
- Complications when they occur (0.2% to 10% risk depending on estimates) are minor, serious complications are prevented when the operator is experienced and a surgeon / urologist
- Death risk and penis loss risk are very small (1 to 2 cases per million)
- No statistically significant variation in intercourse duration between circumcised and uncircumcised men
- No difference in sexual satisfaction according to most studies, minority of studies report decreased satisfaction, minority of studies report increased satisfaction

IOW, all of the risks bandied about are crap.

[Ibrahim]

This whole discussion is pointless. From the get-go, circumcised people will be biased in favor of circumcision, while non-circumcised people will think it an abomination.

I'm not that bothered either way.

[AzariLoveIran]

.


Speaking before the Immigration, Absorption and Diaspora Affairs Committee, Michaelis said a law will be introduced overturning a recent court ruling that banned circumcision in Cologne because it violates children’s rights.



As said and explained B4, circumcision violates children’s rights.

No law can violate (individual's) children’s right .. Court ruling will (and should) stand


.

[Demon of Undoing]

What are the theological implications for Jews to not circumcise at birth? Ought they not to retreat from old notions of children as property, to be treated according to tribal whimsy? Is it not right that a Jew should choose the way of God, possibly at the bar mitzvah?

[monster_gardener]

Thank you Very Much for the Thread, HoosierNorm.

2 possible solutions...........

1. Medical Tourism: take the baby to Israel, Uz or other State that doesn't have problems with this......

Yes it will cost money........ Might have to have fund raisers for those who want but can't afford it...........

2. Move somewhere more culturally friendly on a permanent basis...... Israel, Uz, etc..........

One more proof of the need of Jews for their own homeland where they set their own rules...... not Gentiles well intentioned or not.....

Ultimately the need is for off world Zions.......... The current Zion is in a crazy bad neighborhood..........