Spengler Discovers Hungarian Suicide

[Mr. Perfect]

Spengler isn't an durian, he is just anti-scientific* because he has a hypothesis and he sets out to prove it, selecting the facts that support it.

Reminds me of just about everyone I know. I wonder why Spengler is the only example worth noting.

[YMix]

What Spenglerman demographic theories are "really about" is whatever part you aren't currently debunking.

Being told after two pages of genuflecting around with birth rate figures that it was really about Socialism kinda validates your conclusion. Then again, Dioscuri called Mr. Perfect "The Bullshitter" for this very tactic.

[Typhoon]

Spengler isn't an durian, he is just anti-scientific* because he has a hypothesis and he sets out to prove it, selecting the facts that support it.

Reminds me of just about everyone I know. I wonder why Spengler is the only example worth noting.

He's not, but that is the topic of this thread.

[Typhoon]

It depends on the criticism. If it's intelligent criticism, I'd call him an "intelligent man". If not, I'd call him a "moron".

how is criticism based on race not racism?

Jews are not a race.

The guy is dying only if the current trend holds for some decades. Quite a few decades, probably close to a century. Spengman's theory is based on a linear projection that may or may not hold. We have no idea.

Well here we go again, Spengler is not arguing a linear projection, he's arguing that birth rates are going down. He's arguing that socialist welfare models are based on ever increasing numbers of offspring to pay for future welfare benefits. The failure to do so results in catastrophe. That the math is the killer, that a 10% drop in anything require a 20 increase to return to original levels, which is mathematically next to impossible. That just like someone radiated, they may look healthy on the outside but the death blow has been delivered whether anyone can see it or not.

Not that I'm complaining that turns out to be the case of course. Consider me more a cheerleader. Who talks trash to a dying man.

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As for explanations, there's no reason to provide an alternative one. Spengman's was judged and found wanting. His theory is unconvincing.

We all make our bets in life. Outdated, but let me know if you need help reading the graph.

Regardless of whether or not the above argument is correct,

it has nothing to Spenglerman's article which attempts to link a lack of Jewishness and alleged anti-antisemitism as the basis for declining fertility rates and increased rates of suicide.

The above inference and extrapolation is entirely your own.

[Mr. Perfect]

What Spenglerman demographic theories are "really about" is whatever part you aren't currently debunking.

Being told after two pages of genuflecting around with birth rate figures that it was really about Socialism kinda validates your conclusion. Then again, Dioscuri called Mr. Perfect "The Bullshitter" for this very tactic.

You live in a very strange non-factual universe Ymix, no one said this is "about socialism", this is in fact about many, many things. Y'all's strange attempt to narrowly choke it down to one thing blinds you to reality, which it becomes clearer now may indeed be your goal, blindness to reality.

Socialism is just the mechanism that will kill you if your birthrates falter. Don't shoot the messenger.

[Mr. Perfect]

Regardless of whether or not the above argument is correct,

it has nothing to Spenglerman's article which attempts to link a lack of Jewishness and alleged anti-antisemitism as the basis for declining fertility rates and increased rates of suicide.

I did not see him argue that it was the basis. I have no idea where you got that. It's amazing the power David Goldman has to make people lose their minds. Far beyond rent free living.

The above inference and extrapolation is entirely your own.

It's not my inference it's just data.

[Zack Morris]

It's up for debate whether socialism is the "mechanism that will kill you when birth rates falter." In the non-Communist world, social programs were introduced as a natural response to growing (and poor) elderly populations. Laissez-faire capitalism proved inadequate at solving these problems, so socialism became the inspiration for the current stop-gap solution. I expect that a more stable solution, if it exists, will incorporate lessons from both.

Low birthrate populations and high dependency ratios are a novel thing in the course of human history. Industrialization and urbanization seem to be the primary driving forces behind this unprecedented change, far more so than religious conceptions of man and his relationship to God and Nature, as Spengler posits.

[Mr. Perfect]

It's up for debate whether socialism is the "mechanism that will kill you when birth rates falter."

Good point. It is one of the many mechanisms that will kill you. Just perhaps the easiest to understand for the lay person unfamiliar with economics and politics.

In the non-Communist world, social programs were introduced as a natural response to growing (and poor) elderly populations.

I can't speak for Europe but i think you meant to say in America were introduced as "vote buying schemes".

Laissez-faire capitalism proved inadequate at solving these problems,

Hard to say since in all casses Laissez faire had taken a big shot in the chops prior to said socialism.

so socialism became the inspiration for the current stop-gap solution. I expect that a more stable solution, if it exists, will incorporate lessons from both.

Probably not in Europe, those people are all dead. In the US privatization is the future.

Low birthrate populations and high dependency ratios are a novel thing in the course of human history. Industrialization and urbanization seem to be the primary driving forces behind this unprecedented change, far more so than religious conceptions of man and his relationship to God and Nature, as Spengler posits.

Well that settles that, a simple pronouncement with no backing facts.

[Typhoon]

. . .

so socialism became the inspiration for the current stop-gap solution. I expect that a more stable solution, if it exists, will incorporate lessons from both.

Probably not in Europe, those people are all dead. In the US privatization is the future.

. . .

Well that settles that, a simple pronouncement with no backing facts.

[Mr. Perfect]

Well if you'll beg my pardon, I think the facts are pretty well established, I don't think my chart was even needed to show that European entitlement obligations far exceed the debts they currently have that are unmanageable. I mean, is a hopelessly bankrupt continent "dead"? Perhaps we could argue the shades of meaning of various kinds of obliteration, but I think when we get there the overall issue is largely settled. The Maya died but I think people from there kept living, but in a different capacity (subsistence).

Interestingly, Europe cannot claim these debts as the result of tax cuts or military spending, so one has to ask, where did all this debt come from. I wonder.

[Typhoon]

Well if you'll beg my pardon, I think the facts are pretty well established, I don't think my chart was even needed to show that European entitlement obligations far exceed the debts they currently have that are unmanageable. I mean, is a hopelessly bankrupt continent "dead"? Perhaps we could argue the shades of meaning of various kinds of obliteration, but I think when we get there the overall issue is largely settled. The Maya died but I think people from there kept living, but in a different capacity (subsistence).

I don't recall reading about evidence that the Mayan civilization collapsed due to debt.

There have been many major financial crises since the development of capitalism. The South Seas Bubble did not prevent Britain from becoming an imperial power later.

Industrialized societies with a large percentage of elderly are a new development. It's an open question as to how and how well this problem will be addressed.

The US is no better off with regards to debt per capita.

[Mr. Perfect]

I don't recall reading about evidence that the Mayan civilization collapsed due to debt.

Nobody said it did. It's just an example of collapse.

There have been many major financial crises since the development of capitalism. The South Seas Bubble did not prevent Britain from becoming an imperial power later.

Not all financial crises are the same. Eg, I do not know in the history of the world when a whole continent is liable for some 2-3 times its GDP in retirement benefits, for starters. Let me know if you find anything.

Industrialized societies with a large percentage of elderly are a new development. It's an open question as to how and how well this problem will be addressed.

The fate of the Hindenburg was an open question at one point.

The US is no better off with regards to debt per capita.

That's true, but we supposedly have tax cuts and military spending to explain it. Europe does not have that. So by their own arguments we have a lot more ballast.

[Mr. Perfect]

So back to the topic, we have an article about suicide, low fertility and a rise in anti-semitism, all of which are likely true.

Can someone explain what's wrong with this again?

[Mr. Perfect]

Hungarian birth rate>Hungarian suicide rate>Korean suicide rate>Starcraft II obsession>Jews are about to be killed off in space> Jews are the only eternal people.

Well Jews have survived supposedly for thousands of years, and yes have endured mass slaughter during that whole period.

Just because you endure means you cannot lament the mass slaughter of your people? Help me out on this.

Trail of tears for me and not for thee again? Lamentations for my tribe and not for thine?

[YMix]

You live in a very strange non-factual universe Ymix, no one said this is "about socialism", this is in fact about many, many things. Y'all's strange attempt to narrowly choke it down to one thing blinds you to reality, which it becomes clearer now may indeed be your goal, blindness to reality.

Socialism is just the mechanism that will kill you if your birthrates falter. Don't shoot the messenger.

Well, that's good to know.

[Demon of Undoing]

Hint : ignoring the role of the primary driver of human history, to wit, technology. What happens when telomerase management is as simple as maintaining diabetic issues? I mean, before we engineer the issue to irrelevance? Forget senescence. It's an issue like dealing with lavender and dead animals in the gutter was pre- 1800. An extension of sanitation tech, that's all.

[Typhoon]

Hungarian birth rate>Hungarian suicide rate>Korean suicide rate>Starcraft II obsession>Jews are about to be killed off in space> Jews are the only eternal people.

Well Jews have survived supposedly for thousands of years, and yes have endured mass slaughter during that whole period.

Just because you endure means you cannot lament the mass slaughter of your people? Help me out on this.

Trail of tears for me and not for thee again? Lamentations for my tribe and not for thine?

Claiming that anyone is begrudging Spenglerman his justified lamentations is a strawman argument on your part. No one here is doing so.

[Mr. Perfect]

You live in a very strange non-factual universe Ymix, no one said this is "about socialism", this is in fact about many, many things. Y'all's strange attempt to narrowly choke it down to one thing blinds you to reality, which it becomes clearer now may indeed be your goal, blindness to reality.

Socialism is just the mechanism that will kill you if your birthrates falter. Don't shoot the messenger.

Well, that's good to know.

I'll give you a hint. You are at ground zero for the kill zone. The only way for you to avoid a self snuff at the and is to get yourself at least 1 acre of land tp garden on, at least, free and clear, a Russian mail order bride who will give you 4 kids, and one of them better end up being a nurse. This is the survival kit for the future, 4 kids and a nurse. Little different than 40 acres and a mule. I'd be working double shifts to make that happen if that is legal in your country.

[Mr. Perfect]

Claiming that anyone is begrudging Spenglerman his justified lamentations is a strawman argument on your part. No one here is doing so.

Saying that is what I said is a strawman argument. Berzer was apparently trying to show some contradiction in what Spengler said where there is none. It is quite possible for jews to be an enduring people and a heavily, heavily, heavily persecuted people. In fact that is what it is.

[Demon of Undoing]

Hungarian birth rate>Hungarian suicide rate>Korean suicide rate>Starcraft II obsession>Jews are about to be killed off in space> Jews are the only eternal people.

Well Jews have survived supposedly for thousands of years, and yes have endured mass slaughter during that whole period.

Just because you endure means you cannot lament the mass slaughter of your people? Help me out on this.

Trail of tears for me and not for thee again? Lamentations for my tribe and not for thine?

P, in your wailing and moaning, you've become one humorless bastard. I'm a pretty grim sonofabitch, ask anybody. But you've become downright whiny. It was mostly a humorous jibe, admittedly at Goldman's expense, but in light of " more killing, please", joke him if he can't take a genuflect.

And you still haven't seen the reasoning behind the comparative callousness about the Morons, mostly because the fine points of why their theology is fucked eludes you. Fine, whatever, you may be a Moromon yourself. Sorry if that's the case, but stupid is as stupid does. Deal with it.

[Mr. Perfect]

P, in your wailing and moaning, you've become one humorless bastard. I'm a pretty grim sonofabitch, ask anybody. But you've become downright whiny. It was mostly a humorous jibe, admittedly at Goldman's expense, but in light of " more killing, please", joke him if he can't take a genuflect.

And you still haven't seen the reasoning behind the comparative callousness about the Morons, mostly because the fine points of why their theology is fucked eludes you. Fine, whatever, you may be a Moromon yourself. Sorry if that's the case, but stupid is as stupid does. Deal with it.

Humorless? Yes, that is the right word. Humorless. I agree with that. I'm not laughing these days, not anything but really dark laughter. I'm not sure whether you heard or not but the US Constitution was deleted the other day basically with a thought experiment. And there is an anti-American Marxist in the WH who works every day to destroy a country I pledged my sacred honor to defend and uphold, not just for me but anybody who appreciates and cares to live in a free land as a free person. This anti-American Marxist is doing a fair job at achieving his goals honestly in spite of himself and practically on accident which is a testament to why you never let someone like that anywhere close to begin with.

Despite all this, we have a chance, a chance mind you of actually stopping the Marxist, and in doing so actually it may be the final blow for that stuff in this country. A chance.

So that goes through Mitt Romney fwiw, I don't really get emotionally attached to politicians much, most of them just serve a function for me, but in this case beating the grand dragon, the greatest Democrat of them all will provide the killing blow to a noxious party and their beliefs, for good in this country, well if Mitt Romney serves that purpose you go to war with the Army you have. After Bush the fact we even exist is one of those miracles you don't believe in.

So we've been here before. We've (and when I say we I don't necessarily mean you and I) had them on the ropes in 95 and let them back up. We had them on the ropes in 2005 and let them back up. So here I am today, Luke Skywalker, in the trench, bearing down on the exhaust port and as I'm getting ready to fire I look out on either wing and you are in a headdress with John Roberts and are trying to cut the wiring to my laser guns, with Chick tracts billowing in the rocket wash. So if you see me reaching for my blaster don't be too surprised, but..

Now, the above appears to be of no concern to you whatsoever, which is fine, but me I have aims and goals politically speaking and I tend to come into conflict with people whose goals are at odds with mine, so nothing personal I'm just a political animal. Really political. Created by evolution to wipe out leftism, so I'm just fulfilling my genetic mandate. I don't dislike a person then go after them, I tend to dislike someone's politics and then go after them.

Let's talk about the Muslims. Let's talk about their phony book. I don't think we need to get into the finer points of phony Muslim theology, or phony stupid maybe even evil Muslim books to understand the phoniness, the stupidity of it. I mean can you imagine, this dude Muhammed Smith, taking dictation from God or angels admittedly I'm not down with the all the details, a dictation that ends up being dramatically self serving to the guy getting his magical God communication. You know, "God set me up as your leader on Earth". I mean right there on the surface, what an obvious scam that is. Who could believe in that? Anybody dumb enough to follow that, I can see them as a $#!Tballer. It seems like you think you need to explain to me how asinine the Koran is, and all the people that believe in it but you don't, you've been wasting your breath. i know how stupid the Koran is, and the people that follow it, long before you brought any of it up, or whatsisname the Muslim started running for office. The Koran is completely crazy, and the people reading it are certifiable.

But the problem is that Muslims end up being perfectly good Doctors, Lawyers, teachers, police and firemen, employees, bosses, and even friends. I find that I end up liking Muslims often, and would even have them in my home or let my kids go to their house. And when you do that of a sudden when you hear someone talk about what $#!Tballers they are it sort of catches you funny. Yes, I can't really buy their obviously faked Koran, yet somehow they ended up becoming good people anyway, maybe even in spite of it. But $#!Tballers? The happily married Muslim couple, both educated, have a beautiful happy family and do nothing but good in the community, in their church, in their families, I'm told they need to be run out of the public square? After I assess the situation I think I would have to sort of disagree with you. Maybe the fact that there are a lot of good Muslims on an individual basis overrides my disbelief in the Koran. And admittedly, if you look into their past there are a lot of examples of say polygamy, pedophilia, atrocious treatment of women and "infidels", brutal massacres and wars and and and but maybe even though all of that happened Amir would be a perfectly fine PTA President or Chief of Police. So we would have to perhaps disagree, and in fact I may have to defend Amir and Muslims who despite the odds end up being really quality people when they are attacked as $#!tballers who should be run from public life.

Particularly when I consider that really there are quite a lot of religions I disagree with that are probably complete fakes and stupid, like say Catholicism, Judaism, Hinduism, Shintoism, Buddhism, a handful of Christian denominations, Mormons (do you know anything about Mormonism? It's a bit out there if you ever take a look) and I have to wonder why I see Muslims being run out of the public square as oppose to say Catholics, Jews, or Mormons. Particularly when you look at the numbers there are hardly any, so why the passion?

That's not to say that I wouldn't teach my kids the problems with the koran, or the history of Islam, the problems with it, but to forbid my child to be around a Muslim, or teach them to run Muslims from the public square, that hardly seems necessary or really even right.

So when I see a guy being run from public life because he is antithetical to proper religion instead of a guy being run from public life because he is antithetical to America herself I sort of have to do a sanity check. What planet is this? Is the Presidency a religious position?

So yes it's true, I'm not laughing. The forces of darkness have made a lot of gains, it does not make me happy.

[YMix]

I'll give you a hint. You are at ground zero for the kill zone. The only way for you to avoid a self snuff at the and is to get yourself at least 1 acre of land tp garden on, at least, free and clear, a Russian mail order bride who will give you 4 kids, and one of them better end up being a nurse. This is the survival kit for the future, 4 kids and a nurse. Little different than 40 acres and a mule. I'd be working double shifts to make that happen if that is legal in your country.

I'll give you a hint, too: if you have nothing to add to our discussion of Spengman's stupid theory, start a new thread.

[YMix]

Despite all this, we have a chance, a chance mind you of actually stopping the Marxist, and in doing so actually it may be the final blow for that stuff in this country. A chance.

So that goes through Mitt Romney fwiw

You are a true party groupie. You really are capable of supporting anybody* for office as long as he/she is backed by the GOP.

* "a body of water, a dead body"

[Mr. Perfect]

I'll give you a hint. You are at ground zero for the kill zone. The only way for you to avoid a self snuff at the and is to get yourself at least 1 acre of land tp garden on, at least, free and clear, a Russian mail order bride who will give you 4 kids, and one of them better end up being a nurse. This is the survival kit for the future, 4 kids and a nurse. Little different than 40 acres and a mule. I'd be working double shifts to make that happen if that is legal in your country.

I'll give you a hint, too: if you have nothing to add to our discussion of Spengman's stupid theory, start a new thread.

i think it bears directly on Spengler's theory. I think the whole point of the theory is you need to have 4 kids, one of them a nurse.

[Mr. Perfect]

Despite all this, we have a chance, a chance mind you of actually stopping the Marxist, and in doing so actually it may be the final blow for that stuff in this country. A chance.

So that goes through Mitt Romney fwiw

You are a true party groupie. You really are capable of supporting anybody* for office as long as he/she is backed by the GOP.

* "a body of water, a dead body"

Thank you.