Faith and modernity
Open mind open heart
Open mind
Starting with knowledge and reason... one ends up inevitably with agnosticism. I don't know, nobody knows. Or differently put, if I can't be sure, there is no reason to trust others who do claim they are sure. It even be considered a risky thing to do.
Having an open mind means you don't blindly trust anybody, not even your self. "Things do indeed appear to be the case, but they could be different still - if not today already then certainly tomorrow." Sort of applying the scientific method to ones own experiences. In general I would say this is the natural state of mind and how we learn. Not because we choose to do so, but it is how we are wired biologically and necessary to survive in ever changing circumstances.
Open heart
By virtue of its meaning, it supposedly is something different. But what is it, really? And does it depend on an open mind, or can it do without? Does it mean one is able to cry with those who cry and laugh with those who are happy? Something else or something more? Anxiety and pain make us less open hearted/sensitive to the anxieties and pain of others, but it can also make us more empathic to others in similar situations when we have been there ourselves.
The teachings of Jesus, the way I read and understood them, are very simple. Have an open mind and heart the way children can. Share and help. As adults we are no kids anymore, but we can try avoid and reject all excessive baggage that would only confuse/f*ck up kids, and the kid in ourselves. The image if Christ on the cross to me is that of the death/murder of a child, any child. Resurrection is the return to simplicity, or the image of the child that survives the onslaught.
Starting with knowledge and reason... one ends up inevitably with agnosticism. I don't know, nobody knows. Or differently put, if I can't be sure, there is no reason to trust others who do claim they are sure. It even be considered a risky thing to do.
Having an open mind means you don't blindly trust anybody, not even your self. "Things do indeed appear to be the case, but they could be different still - if not today already then certainly tomorrow." Sort of applying the scientific method to ones own experiences. In general I would say this is the natural state of mind and how we learn. Not because we choose to do so, but it is how we are wired biologically and necessary to survive in ever changing circumstances.
Open heart
By virtue of its meaning, it supposedly is something different. But what is it, really? And does it depend on an open mind, or can it do without? Does it mean one is able to cry with those who cry and laugh with those who are happy? Something else or something more? Anxiety and pain make us less open hearted/sensitive to the anxieties and pain of others, but it can also make us more empathic to others in similar situations when we have been there ourselves.
The teachings of Jesus, the way I read and understood them, are very simple. Have an open mind and heart the way children can. Share and help. As adults we are no kids anymore, but we can try avoid and reject all excessive baggage that would only confuse/f*ck up kids, and the kid in ourselves. The image if Christ on the cross to me is that of the death/murder of a child, any child. Resurrection is the return to simplicity, or the image of the child that survives the onslaught.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Re: Faith and modernity
Other thread title could have been: the future of religion. Just wondered what a "religious culture" looks like once it grows out old school superstition, voodoo and mob psychology (tm). So far we only have agnosticism, secularism, atheism, religious humanism, eating hamburgers or placebo deities as in North Korea.
Deep down I'm very superficial
- YMix
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Re: Faith and modernity
It was a wheel-by.An 80-year-old retired preacher was fatally shot early Monday, and neighbors say the suspect who killed him is also a retired preacher.
The two may have been arguing about religion, CBS 2’s Jeremy Ross reports.
Chicago police say they have a person in custody in connection with the death, which occurred at the Senior Suites of Rainbow Beach in the South Shore neighborhood early Monday.
Police say the 80-year-old victim was shot in the face and died. Investigators said the suspect, who uses a motorized wheelchair, fired one shot, then moved closer and fired several more.
“There are a lot of killers. We’ve got a lot of killers. What, do you think our country’s so innocent? Take a look at what we’ve done, too.” - Donald J. Trump, President of the USA
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
The Kushner sh*t is greasy - Stevie B.
Re: Faith and modernity
YMix wrote:It was a wheel-by.An 80-year-old retired preacher was fatally shot early Monday, and neighbors say the suspect who killed him is also a retired preacher.
The two may have been arguing about religion, CBS 2’s Jeremy Ross reports.
Chicago police say they have a person in custody in connection with the death, which occurred at the Senior Suites of Rainbow Beach in the South Shore neighborhood early Monday.
Police say the 80-year-old victim was shot in the face and died. Investigators said the suspect, who uses a motorized wheelchair, fired one shot, then moved closer and fired several more.
Hey, you're 80 years old, lots of time on your hands, someone mentions all the virgins you get for settling age old religious disputes via violent means .... it could happen to any of us.... some sooner than others.
Shoulda used an Suicide Adult Diaper (SAD).
Re: Faith and modernity
Faith, modernity and the denial of history:
NKYLS6XOxs0
A brave guy.
NKYLS6XOxs0
A brave guy.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Re: Faith and modernity
Religious or secular, doesn't matter.Hominem unius libri timeo.
Beware the man of one book.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Re: Faith and modernity
That people can obsess about one particular thing is indeed... human and true in general. But the nature an character of the object makes a big difference. Somebody who is obsessed with a movie like The Sound of Music having watched it 40+ times with those tunes stuck his/her brain forever... is most likely not somebody to beware of too much. Maybe if the obsession becomes a group obsession and they go into politics promoting all kinds of SofM things... it may become a serious irritation to others. Hearing their favorite SofM songs out of outdoor 200 Watt loudspeakers attached to their clubhouses every friday morning at 07:00 am...could be a reason for concern and loads of social unrest. But if the obsession is an Abramite Holy book... the game goes up to a whole new level and the stakes are much higher, especially when they represent a political ideology. I prefer people who obsess about modern liberal democratic values and constitutions that safeguard them. It matters what book you read and are obsessed about. Alice in Wonderland or Bambi are not Mein Kampf or The Elders of Zion.Typhoon wrote:Religious or secular, doesn't matter.Hominem unius libri timeo.
Beware the man of one book.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Re: Faith and modernity
Excellent quote. Thanks!Typhoon wrote:Religious or secular, doesn't matter.Hominem unius libri timeo.
Beware the man of one book.
The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false-face for the urge to rule it. Power is what all messiahs really seek: not the chance to serve. This is true even of the pious brethren who carry the gospel to foreign parts.
H.L. Mencken
- Nonc Hilaire
- Posts: 6268
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Re: Faith and modernity
Looooooonggg. Will watch later.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”
Teresa of Ávila
Teresa of Ávila
Re: Faith and modernity
In particular I found it interesting how they are talking past each other. So kind of a bummer in the end and maybe not worth listening to for 2 hours.Nonc Hilaire wrote:Looooooonggg. Will watch later.
Not sure why SH insisted for the entire conversation on a rather trivial and moot point (about scientific truth finding), and not accepting JBPs answer: that it is trivially true but not true to the point that JBP would have liked to make: that science and its values are factually secondary, embedded within a greater system of truth, beauty, morality and ethics.
Deep down I'm very superficial
- Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
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Re: Faith and modernity
Looongcat..... but I watched it already. Caused a big, big, big discussion on the merits of scientific realism vs. ethical pragmatism. At least people are paying attention to the American Pragmatists like William James, which they never did before. Religion as an emergent facility of human consciousness, I sorta like that.....'>.......
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
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Re: Faith and modernity
Can anyone give a sentence on why anyone would listen to "Sam Harris".
Censorship isn't necessary
- Miss_Faucie_Fishtits
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- Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:58 pm
Re: Faith and modernity
Because he's speaking with Jordan B. Peterson........'>.......
She irons her jeans, she's evil.........
Re: Faith and modernity
I like SHs thinking. Very precise and coherent arguments. Zooming out one could say something like an Escher drawing emerges.Mr. Perfect wrote:Can anyone give a sentence on why anyone would listen to "Sam Harris".
Lost and stuck in reason. The beauty of it!
Peterson, it seems, believes that humans need a healthy dose of divine madness to function properly. That is scary territory for SH.
Deep down I'm very superficial
Re: Faith and modernity
Nonc,Nonc Hilaire wrote: I have a BA in Biblical Studies and a M.Div.
I have a BA Hons in Philosophy and an M.Phil in moral theory, which should make me critically open minded to your ideas, which I think I am.
A.
Re: Faith and modernity
alex,manolo wrote:Nonc,Nonc Hilaire wrote: I have a BA in Biblical Studies and a M.Div.
I have a BA Hons in Philosophy and an M.Phil in moral theory, which should make me critically open minded to your ideas, which I think I am.
A.
In case you couldn't tell, I have a lot of BS in ME.
Re: Faith and modernity
Well, my first experience, while still sleeping off a hangover, with the morning prayer call at dawn in Malaysia did result in some rather uncharitable thoughts.Parodite wrote:That people can obsess about one particular thing is indeed... human and true in general. But the nature an character of the object makes a big difference. Somebody who is obsessed with a movie like The Sound of Music having watched it 40+ times with those tunes stuck his/her brain forever... is most likely not somebody to beware of too much. Maybe if the obsession becomes a group obsession and they go into politics promoting all kinds of SofM things... it may become a serious irritation to others. Hearing their favorite SofM songs out of outdoor 200 Watt loudspeakers attached to their clubhouses every friday morning at 07:00 am...could be a reason for concern and loads of social unrest.Typhoon wrote:Religious or secular, doesn't matter.Hominem unius libri timeo.
Beware the man of one book.
I will speculate Thomas Aquinas had the latter type in mind when he penned his quote, not ribald novellas.Parodite wrote:But if the obsession is an Abramite Holy book... the game goes up to a whole new level and the stakes are much higher, especially when they represent a political ideology. I prefer people who obsess about modern liberal democratic values and constitutions that safeguard them. It matters what book you read and are obsessed about. Alice in Wonderland or Bambi are not Mein Kampf or The Elders of Zion.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
- Heracleum Persicum
- Posts: 11854
- Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:38 pm
Re: Faith and modernity
.
Folks , things becoming clear what is happening now in America (and in a bigger scale, worldwide)
We backtracking from "Liberal Democracy"
Many sign of that
Looking from this angle, many things happening start making sense
I will develop my case for this hypothesis
What is the common denominator of CNN, ABC, NBC, NYT, WP and all media Trump is attacking ? ?
They all follow and write based on "Liberal Democratic" world views.
Now things becoming a bit "sensitive"
Who mostly owns "Liberal" media, print and TV ? ? ? the progressive Jewish elite and intellectuals, they the flag-bearers of liberalism (democracy) and modernity in West World last 100 yrs .. They the ones joining Martin Luther, the blacks, to confront George Wallace, they spearheading emancipation in many domains.
Their thinking lead America after WW 2 .. that was when America exited Segregation, sexual revolution, gay rights and all the rest.
Ratzinger, (ex) Pope, pretty much fascist Cardinal of Munich, can not take it, resigns
Francis, a Jesuit, suddenly says, no promlemo, homosexuals too can go to Paradise.
A lot of forces were resisting this .. but .. had no power to stop it
Suddenly, Russian Orthodox Church is the moral beacon for christianity, condemning homosexuality and other "liberal democratic" emancipations successes of last 100 yrs .. Putin suddenly becomes a good Christian, showing up regularly in Church ceremonies.
Now, comes Mr. Christian, Murdoch .. he buys media, print and TV .. plays Joe against the elite .. build a "Trash media" empire .. and .. put in motion to dismantle, wipe out, the "liberal democratic" tools and power of American elite, Jewish inteligencia.
The goose is cooking on low flame .. Trump, is groomed for years
And , BANG
This a "palace coupe" against "Liberal Democracy" .. Francis Fukuyama comet to mind
Now, the "anti-Liberal Democrats" took power and will, probably for generation or two, back-track "most" what Liberal-democrat achieved, most of the emancipations, by "salami Tactic" , slice by slice.
All this immigration, Mexican wall rebbush etc .. just smoke screen so that Joe does not realize what's happening to him.
Iran, Ayatollahs ? ? ? for many many years, high level debate in Iranian media, specially TV debates, is that biggest enemy is "Liberal democracy" propagated by West.
Trump Sympathy to Putin comes from this angel.
This is a WAR , a WAR against "liberal Democracy", WORLDWIDE
In that sense, many rights within constitutions, American and other Constitutions, rights, and and, will be trampled or outright eliminated, by redefining it , that "Alternative" Facts & Truth was not slip of the thong but well thought strategic nailing down things to come .. there is an "Alternative" for all those gay rights and human right and protection of minority and freedom of religion and and.
Am sure this is what is going on .. name of the game is "Salami Tactic' .. you dished with something shocking, wait till Joe digest it, then comes the next slice .. salami tactic
In that sense, Trump an ally with Ayatollahs
Now, the bad guys are the "liberal democrats" .. CNN all fake news, Soros the bad guy.
.
Folks , things becoming clear what is happening now in America (and in a bigger scale, worldwide)
We backtracking from "Liberal Democracy"
Many sign of that
Looking from this angle, many things happening start making sense
I will develop my case for this hypothesis
What is the common denominator of CNN, ABC, NBC, NYT, WP and all media Trump is attacking ? ?
They all follow and write based on "Liberal Democratic" world views.
Now things becoming a bit "sensitive"
Who mostly owns "Liberal" media, print and TV ? ? ? the progressive Jewish elite and intellectuals, they the flag-bearers of liberalism (democracy) and modernity in West World last 100 yrs .. They the ones joining Martin Luther, the blacks, to confront George Wallace, they spearheading emancipation in many domains.
Their thinking lead America after WW 2 .. that was when America exited Segregation, sexual revolution, gay rights and all the rest.
Ratzinger, (ex) Pope, pretty much fascist Cardinal of Munich, can not take it, resigns
Francis, a Jesuit, suddenly says, no promlemo, homosexuals too can go to Paradise.
A lot of forces were resisting this .. but .. had no power to stop it
Suddenly, Russian Orthodox Church is the moral beacon for christianity, condemning homosexuality and other "liberal democratic" emancipations successes of last 100 yrs .. Putin suddenly becomes a good Christian, showing up regularly in Church ceremonies.
Now, comes Mr. Christian, Murdoch .. he buys media, print and TV .. plays Joe against the elite .. build a "Trash media" empire .. and .. put in motion to dismantle, wipe out, the "liberal democratic" tools and power of American elite, Jewish inteligencia.
The goose is cooking on low flame .. Trump, is groomed for years
And , BANG
This a "palace coupe" against "Liberal Democracy" .. Francis Fukuyama comet to mind
Now, the "anti-Liberal Democrats" took power and will, probably for generation or two, back-track "most" what Liberal-democrat achieved, most of the emancipations, by "salami Tactic" , slice by slice.
All this immigration, Mexican wall rebbush etc .. just smoke screen so that Joe does not realize what's happening to him.
Iran, Ayatollahs ? ? ? for many many years, high level debate in Iranian media, specially TV debates, is that biggest enemy is "Liberal democracy" propagated by West.
Trump Sympathy to Putin comes from this angel.
This is a WAR , a WAR against "liberal Democracy", WORLDWIDE
In that sense, many rights within constitutions, American and other Constitutions, rights, and and, will be trampled or outright eliminated, by redefining it , that "Alternative" Facts & Truth was not slip of the thong but well thought strategic nailing down things to come .. there is an "Alternative" for all those gay rights and human right and protection of minority and freedom of religion and and.
Am sure this is what is going on .. name of the game is "Salami Tactic' .. you dished with something shocking, wait till Joe digest it, then comes the next slice .. salami tactic
In that sense, Trump an ally with Ayatollahs
Now, the bad guys are the "liberal democrats" .. CNN all fake news, Soros the bad guy.
.
Re: Faith and modernity
Heh, that is indeed a bad moment to be bombarded with any type of "these are a few of my favorite things" decibels.Typhoon wrote:Well, my first experience, while still sleeping off a hangover, with the morning prayer call at dawn in Malaysia did result in some rather uncharitable thoughts.Parodite wrote:That people can obsess about one particular thing is indeed... human and true in general. But the nature an character of the object makes a big difference. Somebody who is obsessed with a movie like The Sound of Music having watched it 40+ times with those tunes stuck his/her brain forever... is most likely not somebody to beware of too much. Maybe if the obsession becomes a group obsession and they go into politics promoting all kinds of SofM things... it may become a serious irritation to others. Hearing their favorite SofM songs out of outdoor 200 Watt loudspeakers attached to their clubhouses every friday morning at 07:00 am...could be a reason for concern and loads of social unrest.
Granted.I will speculate Thomas Aquinas had the latter type in mind when he penned his quote, not ribald novellas.Parodite wrote:But if the obsession is an Abramite Holy book... the game goes up to a whole new level and the stakes are much higher, especially when they represent a political ideology. I prefer people who obsess about modern liberal democratic values and constitutions that safeguard them. It matters what book you read and are obsessed about. Alice in Wonderland or Bambi are not Mein Kampf or The Elders of Zion.
Deep down I'm very superficial
-
- Posts: 16973
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am
Re: Faith and modernity
OK. FYI Sam Harris has no insight on whether God exists or not.Parodite wrote:I like SHs thinking. Very precise and coherent arguments. Zooming out one could say something like an Escher drawing emerges.Mr. Perfect wrote:Can anyone give a sentence on why anyone would listen to "Sam Harris".
Lost and stuck in reason. The beauty of it!
Peterson, it seems, believes that humans need a healthy dose of divine madness to function properly. That is scary territory for SH.
Censorship isn't necessary
Re: Faith and modernity
I think he gives a very good "reasoned review" of people's various beliefs in God. I suppose depending on the type of belief one upholds, such a reasoned review can be of great added value if you want to believe in a God able to survive a thorough rational, reasoned, scientific audit, to be real and not the figment of my own or anyone else's imagination for starters.Mr. Perfect wrote:OK. FYI Sam Harris has no insight on whether God exists or not.Parodite wrote:I like SHs thinking. Very precise and coherent arguments. Zooming out one could say something like an Escher drawing emerges.Mr. Perfect wrote:Can anyone give a sentence on why anyone would listen to "Sam Harris".
Lost and stuck in reason. The beauty of it!
Peterson, it seems, believes that humans need a healthy dose of divine madness to function properly. That is scary territory for SH.
No human has the conclusive test-kit to verify or falsify God, ultimately it is a subjective truth, conviction, or revelation.
The test-kit of science and reason that grills and scrutinizes God looking for verification or falsification is like a freshman's class. If you passed it successfully, you receive your first title: "Honorable and Informed Agnostic". It concerns truth in the public domain and relieves God from all kind of public bullsh*t. The next level in the Finding God course moves from the public domain into the private domain where rational, reasoned, scientific questions or answers do not apply anymore. Just my poetic 2 cents
Deep down I'm very superficial
Re: Faith and modernity
theological question.
if you do salami tactic on a boiling frog will its back break from straws ?
if you do salami tactic on a boiling frog will its back break from straws ?
ultracrepidarian
Re: Faith and modernity
Excellent next-level question.noddy wrote:theological question.
if you do salami tactic on a boiling frog will its back break from straws ?
Deep down I'm very superficial