Ukraine

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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: Ukraine

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

That was the deal between Bush (Baker) and Gorbachev .. based on that, USSR handed back East Europe

Deal was NATO stays where it is 1990


An alleged verbal arrangement only known to the people involved (a number of them now past away,) but speculated upon and talked about as if it were an addendum to Hammurabi's Code.

I know this because before he died, Gorbachev gave me the okay to say this alleged deal was always worth spit. And the kicker is that is revisionist history at its worst to paper over the events of the late 90s and early 00s that led to NATO engagement in "slavic territory" and how very reluctantly it all occurred.

This blogger summarizes it pretty well:
Unlike the current situation in Ukraine, when the war in Yugoslavia started the American's did all they could to stop the country from breaking apart, including placing an arms embargo on the Croats, Slovenes and even the Bosnians. The Americans was so concerned about the stability of the former Soviet Union that they did not want to set a precedent by recognising the breakaway republics. Even the Baltics had a hard time gaining recognition from the U.S. The fact of the matter is that the Bush administration of the early 90's did all it could to support the continuity of the the former Soviet Union and turned a blind eye to much of the slaughter in the former Yugoslavia....

The entry of the Clinton administration initially didn't really change much. But it was the nightly reports of slaughter and murder, perpetrated mainly by the Serbs that turned public opinion in the U.S. and Europe against Serbian/Russian interests. By the time the issue of Kosovo had come around, the largely accurate public image of the Serbs had taken such a beating that Serbian claims to Kosovo fell on unsympathetic ears. American policy in Kosovo was designed to save lives and if the Serbians hadn't a policy of extermination I doubt that there would have been any intervention at all.

This of course bothered the Russians and their apologists who somehow felt that their right to dictate what happened in that theatre of operations trumped the human rights of the inhabitants of that region....

While the fine detail of U.S. foreign policy towards Russia is beyond this blog post the fact of the matter is that U.S. Russian relations were quite cordial, even to the extent that Russia was mooted as a potential NATO member until the Orange Revolution where the Russians were outmaneuvered by the Americans, failing to get their man installed. (Unlike in Belarus.)

It's clear now that the U.S. is hostile to the Kremlin but it wasn't always this way and while both sides are responsible for this deterioration in their relationship. The way the Kremlin and their apologists paint it, one would think that the Russians were victims of exploitation instead of contributory agents. Putin is a Russian Nationalist with an imperialistic vision and his desire to restore a modern version of the tsardom is what rubs many people the wrong way and in the playbook of Russian diplomacy, when Russia doesn't get what it wants it is a "victim."
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

Many American and US top top politicians were present in multiple occasions of this facts, confirmed that Bush, Baker and Gorbachov agreed as said.

And

James Addison Baker III still alive and can , on TV , say the truth

But he keeps silence :lol:

The facts are not disputed

and

As said, this not even about Western borders of Russia , Baltics etc

WTF is NATO doing in Caucuses ?

Caucasus is IRANIAN & RUSSIAN space last 1000s of yrs .. Caucuses was part of Iran for 1000s of yrs less than 150 yrs ago, they Iranians

And Central Asia

What was NATO doing in Afghanistan ?


Biden should have agreed to Putin's letter, was mistake not to
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NapLajoieonSteroids
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Re: Ukraine

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:08 am
James Addison Baker III still alive and can , on TV , say the truth

But he keeps silence :lol:


Most likely because as far as he's concerned the first Bush administration going into the Clinton administration kept whatever their side of the bargain was until they couldn't.

Circumstances changed while Russia proper melted down. As far as I know, '97 to '04 is the period when all these places looked west-- Russia was in a death spiral and could not offer any alternative even if they tried and all parties were enthusiastic about it.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

As noddy has pointed out several times already, nations go where the best deal of the moment is, and as of now eastern euros are rewarded for their efforts. Not only is it materially benefital, but the western euros don't have a fanatical insistence that whatever blood tie there is makes them a permanent vassal/inferior for the rest of eternity.

What has Russia done in the last two decades to win any of them back? They've thrown a temper tantrum about their forever-rights to be Imperial Russia despite their inability to be that economically, socially or militarily.

This is not a persuasive hand.

The tragedy of Vladmir Putin is that he got to where he was by gambling in the black more often than not. He deserves credit for staunching the death spiral and somewhat reversing things while freezing other loses in place. After both communism and parliamentary democracy were all but discredited in Russia, his autocracy has stabilized a managed pluralism and for a short period of time, seemed to be integrating back into international affairs.

He could've spent this late period of his life riding into the sunset, shirtless natch, his enemies seething that they couldn't do anything about it; and his legacy would've been as a good enough czar, comparably speaking to the whole dreary and insane history of Russia.

But he has bet it all on bringing Russian imperialism back to a world trying its hardest to move to post-national/post-imperial relations; in a world where India and China and the EU; America, Japan, Australia, etc. outshine whatever Russia is in terms of human capital and organization. A world where Russia is a junior partner to the interests of others.

He's tossed away all the gains he made twenty years ago. In short, he's mullahed himself into a permanent antagonist that no one can trust and this will carry over to his successors for a long period of time.
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Re: Ukraine

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Re: Ukraine

Post by Typhoon »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:34 am . . .

What has Russia done in the last two decades to win any of them back? They've thrown a temper tantrum about their forever-rights to be Imperial Russia despite their inability to be that economically, socially or militarily.

This is not a persuasive hand.

. . .
Quite. If one is going to invoke "manifest destiny" then it had better be backed up by some manifestation of destiny.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Typhoon »

May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Typhoon »

Heracleum Persicum wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 9:17 pm
Russia says tank deliveries to Ukraine "direct involvement" by West in conflict
told you

Now, waiting for the other shoe to drop
Presumes Russia has more than one shoe.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Typhoon »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:45 am
Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:29 am
:lol: come on, this serious geopolitics, not foolin kids


When are you going to get serious about it? "Punch Anglo-man in the nose" is the extent of your geopolitics. Anything that punches him in the nose, throws dirt in his eyes, pulls his hair gets an apology from HP.
The best part is doing so while living in the Anglosphere and enjoying its advanced civilizational benefits.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Typhoon wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:17 am
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:45 am
Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 3:29 am
:lol: come on, this serious geopolitics, not foolin kids


When are you going to get serious about it? "Punch Anglo-man in the nose" is the extent of your geopolitics. Anything that punches him in the nose, throws dirt in his eyes, pulls his hair gets an apology from HP.
The best part is doing so while living in the Anglosphere and enjoying its advanced civilizational benefits.

We "honest" armchair analyst. Not cheerleaders

Notion living "in the Anglosphere and enjoying its advanced civilizational benefits." one should tow the administration's line, reflecting the history of Western policies last 30 yrs is no patriotism to West
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:23 am
Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:08 am
James Addison Baker III still alive and can , on TV , say the truth

But he keeps silence :lol:


Most likely because as far as he's concerned the first Bush administration going into the Clinton administration kept whatever their side of the bargain was until they couldn't.

Circumstances changed while Russia proper melted down. As far as I know, '97 to '04 is the period when all these places looked west-- Russia was in a death spiral and could not offer any alternative even if they tried and all parties were enthusiastic about it.

True

Basically US (and Europe cooperated) taking advantage of the misfortune of the other side

That showed how "shortsighted" AND "naive" American politicians were (and are)


Once unchallenged, America, West, should have shown the human and good side of the West.

Instead, Bush, Clinton and Obama doubled down on past policies .. and Trump :D

Trump/Bolton saying on TV want to crush Iranian bones :lol:

What followed (after 1990), was a disaster for West .. Afghan, Iraq, Syria, Libya (being policies of 4 US presidents, Republicans and Democrats) accelerated the downfall.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Typhoon wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 9:00 am 327117502_890611805691785_4090825655522480458_n.jpg

Don't bother

In war time, all published war statistics are "propaganda" .. worthless

In fact, what really happening on the ground, is top top secret.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

.

The RT article explains how the disaster began


https://www.rt.com/news/570557-iraq-and ... rican-lie/



The article is taken from "Tea-Party" paper

https://ussanews.com/2023/01/28/if-this ... struction/

We could be on the 2nd leg of that disaster


Scott Ritter
How I tried to prevent the 2003 US invasion of Iraq,
and why I failed


“Mr. Speaker,” the President began, “Vice President Cheney, members of Congress, distinguished citizens and fellow citizens, every year, by law and by custom, we meet here to consider the state of the union. This year,” he intoned gravely, “we gather in this chamber deeply aware of decisive days that lie ahead.”

The “decisive days” Bush spoke of dealt with the decision he had already made to invade Iraq, in violation of international law, for the purpose of removing the Iraqi leader, Saddam Hussein, from power.

Regime change had been the cornerstone policy of the United States toward Iraq ever since Bush 43’s father, Bush 41 (George H. W. Bush) compared Saddam Hussein to Adolf Hitler and demanded Nuremberg-like justice for the crime of invading Kuwait. “Hitler revisited,” the elder Bush told a crowd at a Republican fundraiser in Dallas, Texas. “But remember: When Hitler’s war ended, there were the Nuremberg trials.”

Poor Scott Ritter .. nobody listening to him re Ukraine, again
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Re: Ukraine

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:47 pm
Trump/Bolton saying on TV want to crush Iranian bones :lol:
As a quick aside, it reminds me that recently the former President said this of Bolton,
"I found John Bolton to be one of the dumbest people in Government but, I am proud to say, I used him well," Trump wrote.

"A total & unhinged WARMONGER, the red faced 'boiler ready to explode' was one of those very stupid voices that got us into the Middle East quicksand, Seven Trillion Dollars, & Millions of deaths later, NOTHING!" the former president went on.

"The good news is that I won big negotiations with this moron by my side. When I brought him into a room with hostile foreign leaders, they thought I was going to war, CONCEEDED ALL!"
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Re: Ukraine

Post by NapLajoieonSteroids »

Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:47 pm

Basically US (and Europe cooperated) taking advantage of the misfortune of the other side

The other side went the way of the Hittites, Aztecs and Romans.

What remained didn't have any particular claims, nor the resources required to make or enforce old claims as their own.

That there was still an effort to pretend there remained another side really speaks to the reluctance of the everyone to deal with a world without the soviets. Very smart people {TM} liked things the way they were, some of it due to sentimentality (say the champagne socialists of the west willfully seeing only virtue in the soviet experiment) and some of it due to the nice equilibrium and certainty of business as things were.

It's a whole topic unto itself, the point being that there is nothing basic about the moral narrative around the collapse and reorganization of these complex "organisms" (so to speak).

-----------

Want a moral narrative?

If what is said about the Baker-Gorbechev meetings are true; on the eve of collapse, the Russians main concern wasn't saving their economic order or the soviet "new man" or any of that; it was begging that the imperial claims of Russia be respected.

Talk about an unmasking... :D
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Parodite »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:40 am
Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:47 pm
Trump/Bolton saying on TV want to crush Iranian bones :lol:
As a quick aside, it reminds me that recently the former President said this of Bolton,
"I found John Bolton to be one of the dumbest people in Government but, I am proud to say, I used him well," Trump wrote.

"A total & unhinged WARMONGER, the red faced 'boiler ready to explode' was one of those very stupid voices that got us into the Middle East quicksand, Seven Trillion Dollars, & Millions of deaths later, NOTHING!" the former president went on.

"The good news is that I won big negotiations with this moron by my side. When I brought him into a room with hostile foreign leaders, they thought I was going to war, CONCEEDED ALL!"
:D At such moments, who doesn't miss Trump. Didn't follow much US news lately, but he now is ahead in the polls again?
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

At such moments, who doesn't miss Trump. Didn't follow much US news lately, but he now is ahead in the polls again?
Still holding rallies to huge crowds. No mainstream publicity on this as the Democrats move to fold up the Biden theatre.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:40 am
Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:47 pm
Trump/Bolton saying on TV want to crush Iranian bones :lol:
As a quick aside, it reminds me that recently the former President said this of Bolton,
"I found John Bolton to be one of the dumbest people in Government but, I am proud to say, I used him well," Trump wrote.

"A total & unhinged WARMONGER, the red faced 'boiler ready to explode' was one of those very stupid voices that got us into the Middle East quicksand, Seven Trillion Dollars, & Millions of deaths later, NOTHING!" the former president went on.

"The good news is that I won big negotiations with this moron by my side. When I brought him into a room with hostile foreign leaders, they thought I was going to war, CONCEEDED ALL!"



:lol:

"The good news is that I won big negotiations with this moron by my side. When I brought him into a room with hostile foreign leaders, they thought I was going to war, CONCEEDED ALL!"

Who has he in mind that CONCEEDED ? :D

Taliban ?

mad mullahs ?

Merkel ?

Putin ?

Who ? ?


I like Trump, post WW2 he most honest president US had .. He "Real America", does not pretend to be somebody he not.

Bill Clinton was member of "White only" club till reporters found out his last year in office .. And .. there no wars that Biden did not vote for his entire political life.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:05 am
Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:47 pm

Basically US (and Europe cooperated) taking advantage of the misfortune of the other side

The other side went the way of the Hittites, Aztecs and Romans.

What remained didn't have any particular claims, nor the resources required to make or enforce old claims as their own.

That there was still an effort to pretend there remained another side really speaks to the reluctance of the everyone to deal with a world without the soviets. Very smart people {TM} liked things the way they were, some of it due to sentimentality (say the champagne socialists of the west willfully seeing only virtue in the soviet experiment) and some of it due to the nice equilibrium and certainty of business as things were.

It's a whole topic unto itself, the point being that there is nothing basic about the moral narrative around the collapse and reorganization of these complex "organisms" (so to speak).

-----------

Want a moral narrative?

If what is said about the Baker-Gorbechev meetings are true; on the eve of collapse, the Russians main concern wasn't saving their economic order or the soviet "new man" or any of that; it was begging that the imperial claims of Russia be respected.

Talk about an unmasking... :D


Back then, when conquering armies took a city, the military had the "privilege" to loot the city for 3 days.


"Cyrus the Persian", Conquering Babylon, welcomed all Babylonians, no looting.

That is why Persian empire lasted 1000 years, UNINTERRUPTED

What will the "Non-Western world", 6 billion out of 7 billion world population, think looking at West negging on Baker-Gorbechev handshake ?

Trump showed that even American signature not worth much, forget handshake.


Only in Western culture things must be on paper and handshake worthless

In the old civilization, India, Persian, China, Arabs everything done with an "handshake" for 1000s of years.

Result was, Western "Grandeur" did not last even 200 yrs.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:05 am
Want a moral narrative?

If what is said about the Baker-Gorbechev meetings are true; on the eve of collapse, the Russians main concern wasn't saving their economic order or the soviet "new man" or any of that; it was begging that the imperial claims of Russia be respected.

Talk about an unmasking... :D

What Imperial Russian claim ?

Imperial Persian , Yes .. but Russian ?

"Imperial" has, a sort of, "superior or high civilization" undertone .. not aware Russia ever had such claim ..

Pomegranates, China , YES :D :lol:
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Typhoon »

Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:52 pm
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:05 am
Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:47 pm

Basically US (and Europe cooperated) taking advantage of the misfortune of the other side

The other side went the way of the Hittites, Aztecs and Romans.

What remained didn't have any particular claims, nor the resources required to make or enforce old claims as their own.

That there was still an effort to pretend there remained another side really speaks to the reluctance of the everyone to deal with a world without the soviets. Very smart people {TM} liked things the way they were, some of it due to sentimentality (say the champagne socialists of the west willfully seeing only virtue in the soviet experiment) and some of it due to the nice equilibrium and certainty of business as things were.

It's a whole topic unto itself, the point being that there is nothing basic about the moral narrative around the collapse and reorganization of these complex "organisms" (so to speak).

-----------

Want a moral narrative?

If what is said about the Baker-Gorbechev meetings are true; on the eve of collapse, the Russians main concern wasn't saving their economic order or the soviet "new man" or any of that; it was begging that the imperial claims of Russia be respected.

Talk about an unmasking... :D


Back then, when conquering armies took a city, the military had the "privilege" to loot the city for 3 days.


"Cyrus the Persian", Conquering Babylon, welcomed all Babylonians, no looting.

That is why Persian empire lasted 1000 years, UNINTERRUPTED

What will the "Non-Western world", 6 billion out of 7 billion world population, think looking at West negging on Baker-Gorbechev handshake ?

Trump showed that even American signature not worth much, forget handshake.

Only in Western culture things must be on paper and handshake worthless

In the old civilization, India, Persian, China, Arabs everything done with an "handshake" for 1000s of years.

Result was, Western "Grandeur" did not last even 200 yrs.
So what?

It was the West that lead the Industrial and Scientific Revolutions which completely transformed our lives and raised the world out of millennia of poverty.

If not, most people would still be engaged in subsistence farming ruled over by absolute tyrants.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

NewsWeek
NATO Official Says
Alliance 'Ready' for Direct Confrontation With Russia



Told you guys



Iranian media reports that NATO decided to enter war with Russia

https://www.newsweek.com/nato-official- ... ia-1777362

Apparently WP has such an article

Sending Tanks was the opening salvo
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Typhoon »

Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:59 pm
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:05 am
Want a moral narrative?

If what is said about the Baker-Gorbechev meetings are true; on the eve of collapse, the Russians main concern wasn't saving their economic order or the soviet "new man" or any of that; it was begging that the imperial claims of Russia be respected.

Talk about an unmasking... :D

What Imperial Russian claim ?

Imperial Persian , Yes .. but Russian ?

"Imperial" has, a sort of, "superior or high civilization" undertone .. not aware Russia ever had such claim ..

Pomegranates, China , YES :D :lol:
Pining for supposed past glories of a failed empire is Putin's main motivation.

In that way, you're no different except that you talk the talk, from the comfort and safety of the Anglosphere,
but don't walk the walk.
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Re: Ukraine

Post by Heracleum Persicum »

Typhoon wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:15 pm
Heracleum Persicum wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 7:59 pm
NapLajoieonSteroids wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:05 am
Want a moral narrative?

If what is said about the Baker-Gorbechev meetings are true; on the eve of collapse, the Russians main concern wasn't saving their economic order or the soviet "new man" or any of that; it was begging that the imperial claims of Russia be respected.

Talk about an unmasking... :D

What Imperial Russian claim ?

Imperial Persian , Yes .. but Russian ?

"Imperial" has, a sort of, "superior or high civilization" undertone .. not aware Russia ever had such claim ..

Pomegranates, China , YES :D :lol:

Pining for supposed past glories of a failed empire is Putin's main motivation.

In that way, you're no different except that you talk the talk, from the comfort and safety of the Anglosphere,
but don't walk the walk.

.


Not aware Russia ever claimed Imperial ambition .. Russia was always a "Paysant" country .. Stalin industrialized Russia and made her to a
(sort of) military world power


From NeesWeek article posted :

Bauer, an admiral in the Royal Netherlands Navy, told a Portuguese television channel, RTP, that NATO is focused on rearmament as Russian President Vladimir Putin's strategic objectives go beyond Ukraine and could possibly expand to neighboring countries.

The chairman, who is reportedly advocating "peacetime war economy," added that it is important for NATO nations to direct civil industrial production towards military objectives.

" peacetime war economy " means less butter, more guns .. that might be reason FED pushing economies into recession

Chinese military experts warned against NATO's involvement in the war in Ukraine, noting that the "danger of 'another World War' in Europe is increasing,"

Hmm
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Re: Ukraine

Post by noddy »

seems someone is bombing the drone production and ammo stockpile sites in Iran and Syria.

hard to find news that isnt twitter shitters tho.
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