Democrat states and Republican states

[Zack Morris]

You started this stupid tete-a-tete with a smart-ass remark about Californians forgetting "Alaska even exists." Well, you might so forget, but the folks running your refineries don't.

That's not how I recall it. You made some flippant remark about California and now you're angry for some unknown reason.

[Zack Morris]

Long term unemployment and wealth disparity are his hallmark signature achievements.

Actually, they're the signature achievements of the Bush administration, which created the unemployment that Obama has failed to rectify sufficiently fast enough.

And the destruction of blacks economically. I mean Zack, imagine life under Obama if you were black. Read this, look what you have wrought. You guys must really hate blacks. At least white grads are doing good though, so all is well.

I don't know why you insist on turning this into a race thing. Where I live and work, I see lots of non-whites doing tremendously well. In fact, East Asians and Indians seem to be out-earning whites over here.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012 ... ional-rate

This article claims that Hispanics' incomes have fallen less, proportionally speaking, than whites'. That's odd -- I thought you were trying to claim that non-whites are being clobbered.

Your net needs to get wider. The local metropolis here is like a UN convention. Where I go to the fancy gym here often maybe 2-3 people are speaking in English. But what that has to do with you being cheerfully unaware of disadvantaged people and their terrible lives in your economy, I'm not sure.

Yeah, I totally believe this.

Well it's the viewpoint you appear to live by, non-white, non-educated people are being destroyed by the CA economy and you seem to be cheerfully unaware and uncaring, i suppose though there are a number explanations for that though too be fair.

Non-educated people are being destroyed everywhere. But I only hear conservatives whining about how 'useless' education is. White conservatives, that is. The ones who've benefited the most from things like the GI Bill.

[Skin Job]

As a Californian expatriate, I can say with authority that the smug superior attitude of some Californians comes either from insularity or willful ignorance, not from any firm grounding in reality.

The truly great are almost universally humble, while pretenders need to strut and swagger.

[Marcus]

You started this stupid tete-a-tete with a smart-ass remark about Californians forgetting "Alaska even exists." Well, you might so forget, but the folks running your refineries don't.

That's not how I recall it. You made some flippant remark about California and now you're angry for some unknown reason.

Yeah, you're right, Zack, I did say that we Alaskans consider California to be the Raisin Bran state, which is true . . we do. You came back with the claim that California forgets Alaska even exists, which isn't true.

And, no, I'm not angry . . takes more than that to get my dander up . . just amused, that's all . . . . what goes on here doesn't amount to a f**t in a windstorm.

[Mr. Perfect]

Actually, they're the signature achievements of the Bush administration, which created the unemployment that Obama has failed to rectify sufficiently fast enough.

No the record setting wealth disparity is right on Obama, he pumped with your hearty endorsement many trillions directly into the hands of rich white people, and you cheered and cheered and cheered. You seem to want more of it. Trickle down government STPN.

I don't know why you insist on turning this into a race thing. Where I live and work, I see lots of non-whites doing tremendously well. In fact, East Asians and Indians seem to be out-earning whites over here.

Anecdotes are not reality. Turning a blind eye to the suffering of other people doesn't make it go away Zack. I turn it into a race thing because I care about black people.

This article claims that Hispanics' incomes have fallen less, proportionally speaking, than whites'. That's odd -- I thought you were trying to claim that non-whites are being clobbered.

What does it say about blacks?

Yeah, I totally believe this.

Where you live probably is not as diverse as where I live. Your observation is probably like your others, limited by your limited life experience and access to data and information.

Non-educated people are being destroyed everywhere. But I only hear conservatives whining about how 'useless' education is.

Your comprehensions issues are well documented.

White conservatives, that is. The ones who've benefited the most from things like the GI Bill.

Why hasn't it benefited non whites?

[Zack Morris]

Actually, they're the signature achievements of the Bush administration, which created the unemployment that Obama has failed to rectify sufficiently fast enough.

No the record setting wealth disparity is right on Obama, he pumped with your hearty endorsement many trillions directly into the hands of rich white people, and you cheered and cheered and cheered. You seem to want more of it. Trickle down government STPN.

Nonsense. STPN began with the TARP program, which was Bush's direct assistance to the financial sector. But even before then, trickle down policies created a massive wealth disparity and benefited primarily the top 1%.

What does it say about blacks?

It says they aren't doing so well. But where do these folks live?

List of US States by African American Population

Well, well, well... no surprises there.

Why do Republicans hate black people?

Where you live probably is not as diverse as where I live. Your observation is probably like your others, limited by your limited life experience and access to data and information.

Where I live, the breakdown is: Asians - 37%, whites - 36%, Hispanics - 19%, blacks - 3%. That's pretty diverse. I wonder what the numbers are for where you live.

Why hasn't it benefited non whites?

It has. Spectacularly so. Asians out-earn whites, for example.

[Mr. Perfect]

Nonsense. STPN began with the TARP program, which was Bush's direct assistance to the financial sector. But even before then, trickle down policies created a massive wealth disparity and benefited primarily the top 1%.

Tarp was defeated by the GOP on first vote and passed with overwhelming Democrat support, and Timmy G declared it perhaps the most successful treasure program of all time. Pure left wing ideology that TARP.

[img]image[/img]
You left out the Obama data. Why did you do that?

It says they aren't doing so well. But where do these folks live?

List of US States by African American Population

Well, well, well... no surprises there.

Why do Republicans hate black people?

You sorted the table incorrectly. Sort by population figures, let me know what find.

Where I live, the breakdown is: Asians - 37%, whites - 36%, Hispanics - 19%, blacks - 3%. That's pretty diverse. I wonder what the numbers are for where you live.

That would give it away. Not too much different, except we have tons of blacks and Africans.

It has. Spectacularly so. Asians out-earn whites, for example.

Well they do vote pretty strongly GOP relatively, so I may have to concede a small bit of my point.

[Marcus]

. . Californian consumers who . . pay the wages of high school dropouts . . pumping gunk out of the ground . .

The remarks above are disgusting.

Got to thinking . . here's a serious offer for you: If you ever get to Alaska, look me up, and I'll introduce you to several guys who work the North Slope, "pumping gunk out of the ground" as you call it. You can share your perspective with them . . they might enlighten you.

Back when the pipeline first went in, there were no Alaskans with the kind of expertise needed to build the pipeline, nor are there enough now. "Oilfield trash" had to be hired out of Texas and Oklahoma . . men who knew the trade and got the job done. People like you, Zack, really need to get to know such men and women.

Back in 1958, my dad was a tool-and-die maker in Detroit when Aerojet General, based near Sacramento, had to come to Detroit to hire the kind of expertise the company needed as it developed rocket engines for the space program. My dad was hired . . all expenses paid for the entire family . . as were other Detroiters. Once settled in the Detroit guys formed a little ex-pat community . . called the Californians "prune-pickers." Made fun of them 'cause they didn't have the expertise of the Michigan men.

It's all relative, Zack . . be careful. And don't forget my offer . . know a few guys who'd like to hear your opinion of what it takes to "pump gook out of the ground" at 60˚ below.

[Zack Morris]

Nonsense. STPN began with the TARP program, which was Bush's direct assistance to the financial sector. But even before then, trickle down policies created a massive wealth disparity and benefited primarily the top 1%.

Tarp was defeated by the GOP on first vote and passed with overwhelming Democrat support, and Timmy G declared it perhaps the most successful treasure program of all time. Pure left wing ideology that TARP.

That doesn't change the fact that it was a Republican-designed program and that it later passed with Republican support.

[img]image[/img]
You left out the Obama data. Why did you do that?

It was the quickest chart I could get my hands on. I'd love to see the "Obama data". Considering Obama has been in office less than four years and that it takes a finite amount of time for policies to have any real effect, this should be interesting.

You sorted the table incorrectly. Sort by population figures, let me know what find.

That 6 of 10 of the top states are Red. Not only that, but these Republican states happen to be some of the poorest. Again, my question stands.

That would give it away. Not too much different, except we have tons of blacks and Africans.

It's probably enormously different if you live in the Pacific Northwest or Midwest. There is no metropolis there with comparably low proportions of whites.

Well they do vote pretty strongly GOP relatively, so I may have to concede a small bit of my point.

They still tend to prefer Democrats. They also subscribe heavily to those Democratic/Harvard values you despise so much (but which, thankfully, your candidate also subscribes to).

[Zack Morris]

Got to thinking . . here's a serious offer for you: If you ever get to Alaska, look me up, and I'll introduce you to several guys who work the North Slope, "pumping gunk out of the ground" as you call it. You can share your perspective with them . . they might enlighten you.

Just as long as they don't threaten me physically, or I might have to kick their asses

Back when the pipeline first went in, there were no Alaskans with the kind of expertise needed to build the pipeline, nor are there enough now. "Oilfield trash" had to be hired out of Texas and Oklahoma . . men who knew the trade and got the job done. People like you, Zack, really need to get to know such men and women.

It's all relative, Zack . . be careful. And don't forget my offer . . know a few guys who'd like to hear your opinion of what it takes to "pump gook out of the ground" at 60˚ below.

Whatever. Manual labor isn't the future, Marcus.

[Mr. Perfect]

That doesn't change the fact that it was a Republican-designed program and that it later passed with Republican support.

But you left out the overwhelming Democrat support. It wouldn't have seen the light of day if it weren't for Democrats. Simple facts you left out.

It was the quickest chart I could get my hands on. I'd love to see the "Obama data". Considering Obama has been in office less than four years and that it takes a finite amount of time for policies to have any real effect, this should be interesting.

It's common knowledge. Something you possess so little of it appears.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/12 ... e-20120913
http://www.globalresearch.ca/gap-betwee ... -recovery/

That 6 of 10 of the top states are Red. Not only that, but these Republican states happen to be some of the poorest. Again, my question stands.

Absolutely not, they are mostly swing states that voted for Obama 7-10. His reward, well...

Speaks for itself.

It's probably enormously different if you live in the Pacific Northwest or Midwest. There is no metropolis there with comparably low proportions of whites.

You may have no idea where I live.

They still tend to prefer Democrats. They also subscribe heavily to those Democratic/Harvard values you despise so much (but which, thankfully, your candidate also subscribes to).

I don't know, I hesitate to ascribe blanket statements on something like attitudes when it comes to a whole race.

[Mr. Perfect]

Whatever. Manual labor isn't the future, Marcus.

Judging by job reports under Obama a second term is all about manual part time labor.

[Marcus]

. . Manual labor isn't the future, Marcus.

Don't bet your ass . . or your next surgery . . or your next meal . . on that one, Zack . . there's manual labor and there's manual labor.

Ignorance is bliss . .

[Zack Morris]

It's common knowledge. Something you possess so little of it appears.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/12 ... e-20120913
http://www.globalresearch.ca/gap-betwee ... -recovery/

From the latter:

The Census data showed that median household income, adjusted for inflation, fell by 1.5 percent from the previous year. The figure was 8.1 percent lower than in 2007 and 8.9 percent lower than its peak in 1999. The income of the typical US family in 2011 fell for the fourth straight year and sank to levels last seen in 1995.

Gosh. A 1.5% fall in the last year but a net total fall of over 8% since 2007, when the GOP-produced lavender hit the fan. And only a 0.8% difference in all those years between 1999 and 2007? What the hell were guys up to?

All that we can say for sure is remarkably simple: the financial meltdown occurred before Obama took office and set of a sequence of events that let to spiraling unemployment and wealth destruction before any policy could have had a chance of reversing it.

As I recall, you were clamoring for complete non-interventionism, which meant letting things run their course, which would mean accepting economic decline as the inevitable consequence of processes set in motion earlier. There zero evidence -- zero -- that this would have led to a faster crash and sharper recovery. None whatsoever. All we have to work with are facts that are acknowledged by both sides. At most, Obama's policies (or non-policies since 2010, since we achieved the gridlock you wanted and thought would lead to a more prosperous America free from government intervention) have done little. Government has not expanded appreciably in the last few years and still there is no recovery. All we know for sure is that elsewhere, a reduction in government spending correlates with greater economic malaise.

You may have no idea where I live.

I'm starting to think you live in Narnia. Or maybe somewhere more imaginary: Aztlan. Who knows? But I'm pretty sure it's not a UN convention out there.

[Marcus]

. . The truly great are almost universally humble, while pretenders need to strut and swagger.

A nice point, Skin Job, and nicely taken.

"Ye shall know them by their hubris" . . .

Works for me . . should be the motto of these fora . . .

[Zack Morris]

. . Manual labor isn't the future, Marcus.

Don't bet your ass . . or your next surgery . . or your next meal . . on that one, Zack . . there's manual labor and there's manual labor.

Nobody's drawing an equivalence between surgeons and fruit pickers. All I'm saying is that pumping sludge out of the ground is hardly the basis for a 21st century economy. I don't know if you were going there but I have a feeling someone in this thread eventually would.

[Marcus]

. . pumping sludge out of the ground is hardly the basis for a 21st century economy. . .

. . .

[Typhoon]

. . pumping sludge out of the ground is hardly the basis for a 21st century economy. . .

. . .

While automation has and will continue to replace many [repetitive] manufacturing and service jobs we still live in a physical universe, despite social media, and will continue to need physical goods along with services some of which will continue to require human skill and labour.

We will be using oil into the foreseeable future and I doubt that the advanced tech and skill set required to extract oil at temperatures below it's freezing point will be automated any time soon.

High tech is a relatively small part of even the most advanced industrialized 21st economy.

In Japan, anyone who is skilled at what they do are referred to as "sensei" - teacher or master - from sushi chefs to radiologists.
Unfortunately this list also included politicians [and lawyers].

Oddly enough, this list does not included Ph.D.s unless they are teaching at an academic institution.

[Zack Morris]

I already knew Republicans love pipelines but I didn't realize they were talking about pipelines that funnel minorities and disabled straight into the prison system!

Arrests in east Miss. violate students' rights

JACKSON, Miss. (AP) — Authorities in east Mississippi run a "school-to-prison pipeline" that locks up students for infractions like flatulence or wearing the wrong color socks, a policy that mainly affects black and disabled children, the U.S. Justice Department said Wednesday in a federal lawsuit.
The lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Jackson says officials in the city of Meridian and Lauderdale County have policies that allow students to be arrested and shipped 80 miles to a juvenile detention center without probable cause or legal representation. The defendants in the lawsuit are the city of Meridian, Lauderdale County, the two Lauderdale County Youth Court judges, the Mississippi Department of Human Services and DHS's Division of Youth Services.
The Meridian Public School District is not named as a defendant, but the lawsuit says incarceration is used as a "medium for school discipline."
"For example, some Behavior Intervention Plans prepared by the district for students with disabilities have listed 'Juvenile Detention Center' as a consequence for student misbehavior," the lawsuit said.

[Zack Morris]

Yikes! You'd better think twice before stepping into a Republican home.

KALISPELL, Mont. — The last mistake Dan Fredenberg made was getting killed in another man’s garage.

It was Sept. 22, and Mr. Fredenberg, 40, was upset. He strode up the driveway of a quiet subdivision here to confront Brice Harper, a 24-year-old romantically involved with Mr. Fredenberg’s young wife. But as he walked through Mr. Harper’s open garage door, Mr. Fredenberg was doing more than stepping uninvited onto someone else’s property. He was unwittingly walking onto a legal landscape reshaped by laws that have given homeowners new leeway to use force inside their own homes.

Proponents say the laws strengthen people’s right to defend their homes. To others, they are a license to kill.

That night, in a doorway at the back of his garage, Mr. Harper aimed a gun at the unarmed Mr. Fredenberg, fired and struck him three times. Mr. Fredenberg crumpled to the garage floor, a few feet from Mr. Harper. He was dead before morning.

Had Mr. Fredenberg been shot on the street or sidewalk, the legal outcome might have been different. But on Oct. 9, the Flathead County attorney decided not to prosecute, saying that Montana’s “castle doctrine” law, which maintains that a man’s home is his castle, protected Mr. Harper’s rights to vigorously defend himself there. The county attorney determined that Mr. Harper had the right to fetch his gun from his bedroom, confront Mr. Fredenberg in the garage and, fearing for his safety, shoot him.

“Given his reasonable belief that he was about to be assaulted, Brice’s use of deadly force against Dan was justified” under current Montana law, Ed Corrigan, the county attorney, wrote in a four-page letter explaining his decision to the Kalispell police.

The shooting raises similar questions about armed citizens and their right to self-defense to those raised after the February shooting of Trayvon Martin, 17, in Florida, with the critical difference that Mr. Martin was shot outside.

In Montana, it has focused new scrutiny on whether the castle doctrine measure, implemented in 2009, has given homeowners the authority to defend themselves against real threats or has provided a way to kill without consequences.

“The community has not been well-served by either the law or the legal process in this case,” the local newspaper, The Daily Inter-Lake, wrote in a recent editorial.

In 2009, Montana joined more than 20 other states in passing broad self-defense measures backed by the National Rifle Association and other gun-rights groups. Under the law, a person can brandish a gun to ward off a threat. An individual does not have to flee or call the police before engaging in self-defense.

For criminal trials in which a defendant claims self-defense, the legislation flips the burden of proof, putting the onus on prosecutors to discredit those claims.

'Castle law' is definitely the right term. People in Montana are living in the middle ages.

[monster_gardener]

Yikes! You'd better think twice before stepping into a Republican home.

KALISPELL, Mont. — The last mistake Dan Fredenberg made was getting killed in another man’s garage.

It was Sept. 22, and Mr. Fredenberg, 40, was upset. He strode up the driveway of a quiet subdivision here to confront Brice Harper, a 24-year-old romantically involved with Mr. Fredenberg’s young wife. But as he walked through Mr. Harper’s open garage door, Mr. Fredenberg was doing more than stepping uninvited onto someone else’s property. He was unwittingly walking onto a legal landscape reshaped by laws that have given homeowners new leeway to use force inside their own homes.

Proponents say the laws strengthen people’s right to defend their homes. To others, they are a license to kill.

That night, in a doorway at the back of his garage, Mr. Harper aimed a gun at the unarmed Mr. Fredenberg, fired and struck him three times. Mr. Fredenberg crumpled to the garage floor, a few feet from Mr. Harper. He was dead before morning.

Had Mr. Fredenberg been shot on the street or sidewalk, the legal outcome might have been different. But on Oct. 9, the Flathead County attorney decided not to prosecute, saying that Montana’s “castle doctrine” law, which maintains that a man’s home is his castle, protected Mr. Harper’s rights to vigorously defend himself there. The county attorney determined that Mr. Harper had the right to fetch his gun from his bedroom, confront Mr. Fredenberg in the garage and, fearing for his safety, shoot him.

“Given his reasonable belief that he was about to be assaulted, Brice’s use of deadly force against Dan was justified” under current Montana law, Ed Corrigan, the county attorney, wrote in a four-page letter explaining his decision to the Kalispell police.

The shooting raises similar questions about armed citizens and their right to self-defense to those raised after the February shooting of Trayvon Martin, 17, in Florida, with the critical difference that Mr. Martin was shot outside.

In Montana, it has focused new scrutiny on whether the castle doctrine measure, implemented in 2009, has given homeowners the authority to defend themselves against real threats or has provided a way to kill without consequences.

“The community has not been well-served by either the law or the legal process in this case,” the local newspaper, The Daily Inter-Lake, wrote in a recent editorial.

In 2009, Montana joined more than 20 other states in passing broad self-defense measures backed by the National Rifle Association and other gun-rights groups. Under the law, a person can brandish a gun to ward off a threat. An individual does not have to flee or call the police before engaging in self-defense.

For criminal trials in which a defendant claims self-defense, the legislation flips the burden of proof, putting the onus on prosecutors to discredit those claims.

'Castle law' is definitely the right term. People in Montana are living in the middle ages.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Zack Morris.

I feel some twinges BUT Fredenberg died a fool's death........

And IMVHO better that fools are punished for their folly than the situation in England where with a duty to retreat, you can be prosecuted for harming a burglar who robs you in your home and be sued by the burglar also unless you use a garden gnome as your weapon as one granny did as prosecutors don't like being made to look ridiculous..........

[Zack Morris]

Maybe. But in a sane universe, the bigger fool would have been he who calmly fetched his gun, returned, and pulled the trigger three times. I doubt Mr. Fredenberg's foolish mistakes should have cost him his life. But... Republican states... what are you gonna do?

[Taboo]

If you are in your home, there is no duty to retreat anywhere in the US, in red states or blue. United States ... what are you gonna do?

[Zack Morris]

If you are in your home, there is no duty to retreat anywhere in the US, in red states or blue. United States ... what are you gonna do?

Well, the guy retreated to go get his gun. That doesn't strike me as reasonable.

[Skin Job]

Such a broad brush! Look at these outliers, then condemn an entire state with all its people. The same kind of logic has led to US drone policy: Some bad people live there, therefore they are all guilty by association and can be killed without remorse.

Zack, why not bring drones to the red states? Just kill those evil conservatives and be done with it.