Theological Fatalism

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Farcus

Theological Fatalism

Post by Farcus »

...is a term of art for the contention that Omniscience and Free Will are incompatible.
That is, free will - capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives - and Free Will - a 'metaphysical' idea of being responsible for one's actions - are impossible because God knew exactly what one would do for an eternity before He created him.
Though the word “fatalism” is commonly used to refer to an attitude of resignation in the face of some future event or events which are thought to be inevitable, philosophers usually use the word to refer to the view that we are powerless to do anything other than what we actually do. This view may be argued for in various ways: by appeal to logical laws and metaphysical necessities; by appeal to the existence and nature of God; by appeal to causal determinism. When argued for in the first way, it is commonly called “Logical fatalism” (or, in some cases, “Metaphysical fatalism”); when argued for in the second way, it is commonly called “Theological fatalism”. When argued for in the third way it is not now commonly referred to as “fatalism” at all, and such arguments will not be discussed here.

The interest in arguments for fatalism lies at least as much in the question of how the conclusion may be avoided as in the question of whether it is true.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fatalism/

The question of free will, moral liberty, or the liberum arbitrium of the Schoolmen, ranks amongst the three or four most important philosophical problems of all time. It ramifies into ethics, theology, metaphysics, and psychology. The view adopted in response to it will determine a man's position in regard to the most momentous issues that present themselves to the human mind. On the one hand, does man possess genuine moral freedom, power of real choice, true ability to determine the course of his thoughts and volitions, to decide which motives shall prevail within his mind, to modify and mould his own character? Or, on the other, are man's thoughts and volitions, his character and external actions, all merely the inevitable outcome of his circumstances? Are they all inexorably predetermined in every detail along rigid lines by events of the past, over which he himself has had no sort of control? This is the real import of the free-will problem.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm




As a reduction, Pike asked:
Let us suppose that being omniscient involves being infallible, and believing that p if and only if it is true that p.

Let us also suppose that God existed in 1900, and that omniscience is part of his essence.

Now, suppose that Jones mowed his lawn on 6/1/2012.

Then God believed in 1900 that Jones would mow his lawn on 6/1/2012.

Did Jones have the power to refrain from mowing his lawn?
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Re: Theological Fatalism

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Omniscience refers to knowledge, not action. It may refer to knowing what choices we may make from choices available (Molinism), or it may refer to universal knowledge of the now without reference to past or future.

In Christian theology, God in His Father persona tends to relate to mankind as a single creation spanning the completeness of time and not as individuals. Omniscience in this case would be more like a casino owner who knows he will make an average income but is relatively unconcerned with individual winners and losers because his overarching plan is mathematically omniscient.

Personally, I believe God has established a teleological completeness for us all like the growth of a tree is built into its seed. God is pulling us into a future of his design, but our free will can make the journey much less painful by cooperating as much as possible.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Re: Theological Fatalism

Post by Nonc Hilaire »

Farcus wrote:Did Jones have the power to refrain from mowing his lawn?
Sorry; forgot the question. If Jones joined an HOA, probably not.
“Christ has no body now but yours. Yours are the eyes through which he looks with compassion on this world. Yours are the feet with which he walks among His people to do good. Yours are the hands through which he blesses His creation.”

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Re: Theological Fatalism

Post by Marcus »

God does not exist in time, time exists within God. In Him we live and move and have our being.
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
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Farcus

Post by Farcus »

Marcus wrote:God does not exist in time, time exists within God. In Him we live and move and have our being.
God is just a different way to spell Universe?
And it's your contention that we don't have free will, only the will of God (AKA the universe)?
This would reduce to pure Determinism.

Do I have that right?
Last edited by Farcus on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Farcus

Wait...What?

Post by Farcus »

Nonc Hilaire wrote:Omniscience refers to knowledge, not action. It may refer to knowing what choices we may make from choices available (Molinism), or it may refer to universal knowledge of the now without reference to past or future.

In Christian theology, God in His Father persona tends to relate to mankind as a single creation spanning the completeness of time and not as individuals. Omniscience in this case would be more like a casino owner who knows he will make an average income but is relatively unconcerned with individual winners and losers because his overarching plan is mathematically omniscient.

Personally, I believe God has established a teleological completeness for us all like the growth of a tree is built into its seed. God is pulling us into a future of his design, but our free will can make the journey much less painful by cooperating as much as possible.

Are you saying that you have the power to change God's foreknowlege? Or that God's foreknowledge is incomplete?

What is true of the past is necessarily true. -- Would you agree?
Last edited by Farcus on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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If you can't stand the heat . . .

Post by Marcus »

Last edited by Marcus on Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
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Farcus

Re: If you can't stand the heat . . .

Post by Farcus »

Marcus wrote:hell

Thank you and goodbye.
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Re: If you can't stand the heat . . .

Post by Marcus »

Farcus wrote:
Marcus wrote:hell
Thank you and goodbye.
Stick around . . when the going gets tough, the tough get going . . ;)
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
Farcus

Re: Theological Fatalism

Post by Farcus »

Wiki wrote:Determinism is a philosophy stating that for everything that happens there are conditions such that, given those conditions, nothing else could happen. Different versions of this theory depend upon various alleged connections, and interdependencies of things and events, asserting that these hold without exception. Deterministic theories throughout the history of philosophy have sprung from diverse motives and considerations, some of which overlap. They can be understood in relation to their historical significance and alternative theories. Some forms of determinism can be tested empirically with ideas stemming from physics and the philosophy of physics. The opposite of determinism is some kind of indeterminism (otherwise called nondeterminism). Determinism is often contrasted with free will.
New Advent wrote:Determinism is a name employed by writers, especially since J. Stuart Mill, to denote the philosophical theory which holds — in opposition to the doctrine of free will — that all man's volitions are invariably determined by pre-existing circumstances. It may take diverse forms, some cruder, some more refined. Biological and materialistic Determinism maintains that each of our voluntary acts finds its sufficient and complete cause in the physiological conditions of the organism. Psychological Determinism ascribes efficiency to the psychical antecedents. In this view each volition or act of choice is determined by the character of the agent plus the motives acting on him at the time. Advocates of this theory, since Mill, usually object to the names, Necessarianism and Fatalism, on the ground that these words seem to imply some form of external compulsion, whilst they affirm only the fact of invariable sequence or uniform causal connectedness between motives and volition


Now, aside from New Advent's regrettable need to denigrate philosophers to feel better, they later make a more laughable error:
For Materialism of every type necessarily holds that every incident in the history of the universe is the inevitable outcome of the mechanical and physical movements and changes which have gone before.
in a tribal attempt to collar all non-Idealists with the same Deterministic harness and claim acts of volition as pluralist and therefore, ultimately self-refuting to 'all but us neo-Platonists' :roll:.
They do however, finally get around to the fact of the matter:
The notions of responsibility, moral obligation, merit, and the like, as ordinarily understood, would be illusory if Determinism were true. The theory is in fact fatal to ethics, as well as to the notion of sin and the fundamental Christian belief that we can merit both reward and punishment.
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Re: Theological Fatalism

Post by Marcus »

Farcus wrote:. . Now, aside from New Advent's regrettable need to denigrate philosophers to feel better, they later make a more laughable error:

. . in a tribal attempt to collar all non-Idealists with the same Deterministic harness and claim acts of volition as pluralist and therefore, ultimately self-refuting to 'all but us neo-Platonists' . .
Here, as I read your post, is your problem: Rather than confining your argument strictly to the realm of ideas, you make the discussion personal by abusing and ridiculing New Advent and accusing them of nefarious motives. You really have no way of knowing New Advent's "needs" or motives.

How about editing your post, confining your points strictly to the realm of ideas?

We can go from there . .
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
Farcus

Re: Theological Fatalism

Post by Farcus »

Marcus wrote:
Farcus wrote:. . Now, aside from New Advent's regrettable need to denigrate philosophers to feel better, they later make a more laughable error:

. . in a tribal attempt to collar all non-Idealists with the same Deterministic harness and claim acts of volition as pluralist and therefore, ultimately self-refuting to 'all but us neo-Platonists' . .
Here, as I read your post, is your problem: Rather than confining your argument strictly to the realm of ideas, you make the discussion personal by abusing and ridiculing New Advent and accusing them of nefarious motives. You really have no way of knowing New Advent's "needs" or motives.

How about editing your post, confining your points strictly to the realm of ideas?

We can go from there . .

You dishonor yourself Marcus, if you expect me to be dishonest in the service of New Advent encyclopedia.
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Re: Theological Fatalism

Post by Marcus »

Farcus wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Farcus wrote:. . Now, aside from New Advent's regrettable need to denigrate philosophers to feel better, they later make a more laughable error:

. . in a tribal attempt to collar all non-Idealists with the same Deterministic harness and claim acts of volition as pluralist and therefore, ultimately self-refuting to 'all but us neo-Platonists' . .

Here, as I read your post, is your problem: Rather than confining your argument strictly to the realm of ideas, you make the discussion personal by abusing and ridiculing New Advent and accusing them of nefarious motives. You really have no way of knowing New Advent's "needs" or motives.

How about editing your post, confining your points strictly to the realm of ideas?

We can go from there . .
You dishonor yourself Marcus, if you expect me to be dishonest in the service of New Advent encyclopedia.


Your choice, bunkie, quote the New Advent Whatever till the cows come home, but leave off your abusive insults and second-guessing their motives.

Keep it in the realm of ideas*, and I'll try to engage . . not until.

Your choice . . ;)

  • *Hell, you couldn't even resist becoming personal toward me . . sad . .
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
Farcus

All absurdities are absurd.

Post by Farcus »

Marcus wrote:
Farcus wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Farcus wrote:. . Now, aside from New Advent's regrettable need to denigrate philosophers to feel better, they later make a more laughable error:

. . in a tribal attempt to collar all non-Idealists with the same Deterministic harness and claim acts of volition as pluralist and therefore, ultimately self-refuting to 'all but us neo-Platonists' . .

Here, as I read your post, is your problem: Rather than confining your argument strictly to the realm of ideas, you make the discussion personal by abusing and ridiculing New Advent and accusing them of nefarious motives. You really have no way of knowing New Advent's "needs" or motives.

How about editing your post, confining your points strictly to the realm of ideas?

We can go from there . .
You dishonor yourself Marcus, if you expect me to be dishonest in the service of New Advent encyclopedia.


Your choice, bunkie, quote the New Advent Whatever till the cows come home, but leave off your abusive insults and second-guessing their motives.

Keep it in the realm of ideas*, and I'll try to engage . . not until.

Your choice . . ;)

  • *Hell, you couldn't even resist becoming personal toward me . . sad . .
One has no choice, according to the windy 17th century creed you posted in lieu of discussion and which is now in Hell. We are curiously handicapped aspects of God that could no more control what we say here as predict the moments of our passings or births.
One has no choice, but that is not to say that one has no responsibility. As a somehow imperfect Creation, we are born to sin and in sinning as we must, we dishonor and anger our Creator-selves. We have no choice in the matter, and especially in the spirit.

Why speak to me then, of choice?
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Re: All absurdities are absurd.

Post by Marcus »

Farcus wrote:One has no choice, according to the windy 17th century creed you posted in lieu of discussion and which is now in Hell. We are curiously handicapped aspects of God that could no more control what we say here as predict the moments of our passings or births.
One has no choice, but that is not to say that one has no responsibility. As a somehow imperfect Creation, we are born to sin and in sinning as we must, we dishonor and anger our Creator-selves. We have no choice in the matter, and especially in the spirit.

Why speak to me then, of choice?
It seems you simply can't resist the derogatory adjectives as in "windy" . . . ;)

Neither your questions nor your complaints are anything new under the sun . . don't know what to say . . all such have been asked and answered by better men than me beginning at least with Job.

Believe what you will . . whatever makes you feel good or winds your clock with perfect certainty that what you believe is what you will consequently understand . . there is no arguing such matters as the possibilities are mutually exclusive.

"To each his own." —Cicero
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
Farcus

Re: All absurdities are absurd.

Post by Farcus »

Marcus wrote:
Farcus wrote:One has no choice, according to the windy 17th century creed you posted in lieu of discussion and which is now in Hell. We are curiously handicapped aspects of God that could no more control what we say here as predict the moments of our passings or births.
One has no choice, but that is not to say that one has no responsibility. As a somehow imperfect Creation, we are born to sin and in sinning as we must, we dishonor and anger our Creator-selves. We have no choice in the matter, and especially in the spirit.

Why speak to me then, of choice?
It seems you simply can't resist the derogatory adjectives as in "windy" . . . ;) :lol:
It seems you have no answer to the question. :lol:

Neither your questions nor your complaints are anything new under the sun . . don't know what to say . . all such have been asked and answered by better men than me beginning at least with Job.
Yet the question remains. I know you don't know what to say. I'm also pretty sure as to why you don't want it discussed either. But that doesn't matter. You have no choice or free will.
Believe what you will . . whatever makes you feel good or winds your clock . . there is no arguing such matters as the possibilities are mutually exclusive.
Yet God is here, speaking directly to you, as predestined.
"To each his own." —Cicero
"To each his own" —motto of KZ Buchenwald, on front gate, only readable from inside the death camp

"To each is completely determined by God" —Westminster Creed
Farcus

Begging your pardon,

Post by Farcus »

Marcus wrote:
Farcus wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Farcus wrote:. . Now, aside from New Advent's regrettable need to denigrate philosophers to feel better, they later make a more laughable error:

. . in a tribal attempt to collar all non-Idealists with the same Deterministic harness and claim acts of volition as pluralist and therefore, ultimately self-refuting to 'all but us neo-Platonists' . .

Here, as I read your post, is your problem: Rather than confining your argument strictly to the realm of ideas, you make the discussion personal by abusing and ridiculing New Advent and accusing them of nefarious motives. You really have no way of knowing New Advent's "needs" or motives.

How about editing your post, confining your points strictly to the realm of ideas?

We can go from there . .
You dishonor yourself Marcus, if you expect me to be dishonest in the service of New Advent encyclopedia.


Your choice, bunkie, quote the New Advent Whatever till the cows come home, but leave off your abusive insults and second-guessing their motives.

Keep it in the realm of ideas*, and I'll try to engage . . not until.

Your choice . . ;)

  • *Hell, you couldn't even resist becoming personal toward me . . sad . .

Could I trouble you to do us the courtesy of exemplifying the ideals you require of others?
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Re: Theological Fatalism

Post by Skin Job »

An approach which allows for the existence of a multiverse renders this question moot, for Jones only mowed his lawn in one or some of the universes, and not others. So he both did, and did not, and God remains more inscrutable than ever.
Farcus

How 'bout those Yankees?

Post by Farcus »

Skin Job wrote:An approach which allows for the existence of a multiverse renders this question moot, for Jones only mowed his lawn in one or some of the universes, and not others. So he both did, and did not, and God remains more inscrutable than ever.
That would probably be a good reason not to interject speculations that only serve to add to the fog of inscrutability rather than lift it, unless that is one's goal.
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Fundamentalism by any name smells as bad . . .

Post by Marcus »

Farcus wrote:It seems you have no answer to the question. :lol:

. . Yet the question remains. I know you don't know what to say. I'm also pretty sure as to why you don't want it discussed either. But that doesn't matter. You have no choice or free will. . .
The question has been answered and remains only in the minds of those who reject the answer given.

There is no discussion possible between two, mutually-exclusive beliefs, and this is where discussion breaks down. It seems that there are some folks who simply cannot comprehend and respect the fact that other, sincere, decent, intelligent people believe differently than do they.

Well, I tried . . :(
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
Farcus

Typhus by any name smells as bad . . .

Post by Farcus »

Marcus wrote:
Farcus wrote:It seems you have no answer to the question.

. . Yet the question remains. I know you don't know what to say. I'm also pretty sure as to why you don't want it discussed either. But that doesn't matter. You have no choice or free will. . .
The question has been answered and remains only in the minds of those who reject the answer given.
But where does that leave people who still believe in Free Will, in responsibility for their actions beyond the mere material, in choice?
God knew, planned, constructed, created every millisecond of Jones' life in this realm an eternity (a millisecond) prior to Jones' illusion he had a choice about mowing the yard. Jones felt, believed in his heart that he had a choice in the matter.
Has Jones took upon himself the things that are properly God's? Is his Real Name "Jonah"?


There is no discussion possible between two, mutually-exclusive beliefs, and this is where discussion breaks down.
Determinism and Free Will are indeed mutually exclusive, which is the point of the thread, to foster discussion on whether synthesis is possible or if one or the other mutually exclusive beliefs must properly take precedence. Frankly, it's looking pretty bad for Free Will.



It seems that there are some folks who simply cannot comprehend and respect the fact that other, sincere, decent, intelligent people believe differently than do they.
And some would propose a final solution for these people, presupposing it was predestined by God. Now, since that act of extermination can only be examined in hindsight - since were it in fact predestined it would infallibly come to pass and not otherwise - it would seem all holocausts are predestined, and those who execute them Divine Agents, who can do no other. So naturally because and by God's Will, "Jedem das Seine", amirite?
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Re: How 'bout those Yankees?

Post by Skin Job »

Farcus wrote:
Skin Job wrote:An approach which allows for the existence of a multiverse renders this question moot, for Jones only mowed his lawn in one or some of the universes, and not others. So he both did, and did not, and God remains more inscrutable than ever.
That would probably be a good reason not to interject speculations that only serve to add to the fog of inscrutability rather than lift it, unless that is one's goal.
What can I say, I just couldn't help myself.
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Inscrutable . . instupidable . .

Post by Marcus »

Farcus wrote:
Skin Job wrote:An approach which allows for the existence of a multiverse renders this question moot, for Jones only mowed his lawn in one or some of the universes, and not others. So he both did, and did not, and God remains more inscrutable than ever.
That would probably be a good reason not to interject speculations that only serve to add to the fog of inscrutability rather than lift it, unless that is one's goal.
What can I say, I just couldn't help myself.
This entire thread is an instupi . . I mean "inscrutable" joke . . tried to make some sense of it but to no avail . . best pick up the discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1358 . . for anyone who wants to know what's really going on.

What a farce . . :lol:
"The jawbone of an ass is just as dangerous a weapon today as in Sampson's time."
--- Richard Nixon
******************
"I consider looseness with words no less of a defect than looseness of the bowels."
—John Calvin
Farcus

Re: How 'bout those Yankees?

Post by Farcus »

Skin Job wrote:
Farcus wrote:
Skin Job wrote:An approach which allows for the existence of a multiverse renders this question moot, for Jones only mowed his lawn in one or some of the universes, and not others. So he both did, and did not, and God remains more inscrutable than ever.
That would probably be a good reason not to interject speculations that only serve to add to the fog of inscrutability rather than lift it, unless that is one's goal.
What can I say, I just couldn't help myself.


Feel free to make modal claims if you'd like, since there's scant else to work with when it comes to possible worlds, which some might conflate with theories of actual or abstract multiverses.
Don't shy away from reduction or deconstruction either, as they are powerful tools.

I would personally enjoy a sophisticated argument to be presented here, as frankly the expected principal theodicy of Liebniz is rather weak when revealed by analysis, and can't stand before its own lights.
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Re: Theological Fatalism

Post by noddy »

time travel is always an awkard plot device and the omni^3 is perhaps the worst of it.

on practical level, the existence of some perfect observer with knowledge of the future makes not one sniff of difference to poor little ole me struggling with daily decisions so im curious as to what exactly this is except wordplay.

their is also some nuance here in regards the distinction between "creating the future" and "being aware of the future" - i seem to remember ive seen alot of religious arguments in relation to that on the ole spengler board and the varying viewpoints on gods mechanisms, from the explicit hands on view to the implicit rules view.

seems the same, except it isnt... explicit versus implicit.

the strict regiment of the marching band versus the chaotic story of the football game... wiggle room for chaos and choices affecting outcomes.

why are your certain that the gods view of the future doesnt include multiple possibilities ?
ultracrepidarian
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