Yep, basically you can go and you sign your signature. They have your signature on file. If someone else voted and said they were you, you can fill out an affidavit ballot claiming that someone fraudulently claimed to be you.Taboo wrote:Wow. Reading this thread is hilarious.
Apparently GOP wants to disenfranchise blacks by
a) Mischievously asking them for photo IDs.
b) Having Romney's son rig the voting machines.
As a statist European, I have to submit to my native country's mandatory ID laws -- I am legally bound to have a valid photo id and renew it before it expires. I take it for granted that I cannot vote or perform any of a vast number of actions without a valid ID. So, given that background, I feel I need to ask: how exactly does the system work now? Do Americans just walk to the voting booth, say I am so and so, and vote? What's to stop me from travelling around Chicago and voting early and often? Arent' there lists? How do they prevent double voting? How do they check that people without IDs are who they say they are?
Voter ID laws
Re: Voter ID laws
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
-Alexander Hamilton
Re: Voter ID laws
So who's to stop me from voting for my recently deceased grandfather, for instance?
This would be instantly abused in Eastern Europe. Parties would have dead people vote by the busloads.
This would be instantly abused in Eastern Europe. Parties would have dead people vote by the busloads.
Re: Voter ID laws
No one really. But that sort of thing is a marginal activity, not the rampant scourge that Republicans make it out to be.Taboo wrote:So who's to stop me from voting for my recently deceased grandfather, for instance?
That's the rumor, doesn't really happen that much. There was a local race where it mattered here, but that race was decided by 19 votes.This would be instantly abused in Eastern Europe. Parties would have dead people vote by the busloads.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/2 ... 06697.html
H.I.G. Capital is a Miami-based private equity fund that manages $8.5 billion in capital. Hart Intercivic is a company exclusively in the business of manufacturing and programming voting systems.
Charles Sipkins, a crisis communications consultant serving as spokesman for H.I.G., told The Huffington Post on Monday that "Hart InterCivic has a long track record of supporting a fair and open democratic process." He added: "Any suggestions that the company might try to influence the outcome of election results are unfounded.”
But there are elements to the story that nonetheless alarm election experts.
H.I.G. Capital's co-founder, Anthony Tamer, previously worked at Bain & Company, the global consulting giant where Romney was once CEO. Eight of the company's managing directors came from Bain as well. Tamer and his wife are major Romney donors, having each contributed $50,000 to the pro-Romney super PAC Restore Our Future. Tamer has also donated $75,000 to the Romney Victory Fund.
And Tamer has plenty of company at H.I.G. Although it isn't a particularly big firm, H.I.G.'s directors have collectively given so much money to Romney that their company is the sixth biggest contributor to all Romney committees, as calculated by opensecrets.org.
Almost all of their 2012 contributions, in fact, went either to Romney or to the Republican National Committee.
Hart Intercivic, meanwhile, provides voting machines for 370 jurisdictions around the nation, with about 17.7 million registered voters.
One of the jurisdictions with Hart Intercivic equipment is Hamilton County -- which includes Cincinnati, the third-largest city in the hotly contested swing state of Ohio.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
-Alexander Hamilton
Re: Voter ID laws
Yes, I remember once reading that slot-machines in casinos are more severely regulated and more carefully checked for reliability than voting machines in the US.
From my personal experience with monitoring elections in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus, the more likely culprits in any cheating are not individual voters, or voting machine makers, but immoral politicians, usually running utterly poor and corrupt medium and large cities, busing around voters like it's some sort of fare. In the US context, that would generally be Democrats in minority neighborhoods. So when urban black leaders railed against ID voting laws, that triggered some old alarm bells.
Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.
From my personal experience with monitoring elections in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus, the more likely culprits in any cheating are not individual voters, or voting machine makers, but immoral politicians, usually running utterly poor and corrupt medium and large cities, busing around voters like it's some sort of fare. In the US context, that would generally be Democrats in minority neighborhoods. So when urban black leaders railed against ID voting laws, that triggered some old alarm bells.
Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.
Re: Voter ID laws
The only people who get bussed are old people, and that's not really corrupt that's just a service to help get infirm people to the polls. My polling station is across the street. We have low voter turnout and its ridiculous because you are never more than five blocks from your polling station.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
-Alexander Hamilton
Re: Voter ID laws
Taboo wrote:Wow. Reading this thread is hilarious.
Apparently GOP wants to disenfranchise blacks by
a) Mischievously asking them for photo IDs.
b) Having Romney's son rig the voting machines.
As a statist European, I have to submit to my native country's mandatory ID laws -- I am legally bound to have a valid photo id and renew it before it expires. I take it for granted that I cannot vote or perform any of a vast number of actions without a valid ID. So, given that background, I feel I need to ask: how exactly does the system work now? Do Americans just walk to the voting booth, say I am so and so, and vote? What's to stop me from travelling around Chicago and voting early and often? Arent' there lists? How do they prevent double voting? How do they check that people without IDs are who they say they are?
How did I know you would find your way to this thread, and come down on this side? I must be psychic.
Anyway this debate might still have some real "ompf" to it if the Pennsylvania GOP hadn't admitted that the point of these laws was to help them win swing states, and numerous studies and courts ruled that the measures would prevent more eligible citizens from voting than it would suppress fraud. The overwhelming reaction of Republicans in general and every conservative on this forum has been "good."
- monster_gardener
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- Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........
JFK and the Drac Pack ;-)
Taboo wrote:So who's to stop me from voting for my recently deceased grandfather, for instance?
This would be instantly abused in Eastern Europe. Parties would have dead people vote by the busloads.
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Taboo.
Quite right......
The Drac Pack .......... ........
AIUI they played a big role in electing JFK in 1960 vs. Richard Nixon.........
But I have affection for JFK......... His dying helped get Uz to the Moon.........
We need to do that again..........
Go to the Moon and this time colonize it..........
Not kill another Kennedy..........
They're fairly good at doing that themselves......
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Re: Voter ID laws
You must be. You're also not very good at reading:Ibrahim wrote:How did I know you would find your way to this thread, and come down on this side? I must be psychic.
Taboo wrote:Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.
Who says I'm a conservative? I identify myself as a Manchester Liberal.every conservative on this forum has been "good."
- monster_gardener
- Posts: 5334
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
- Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........
Is Ibrahim Losing his Ability to Read with Comprehension....
Thank you VERY Much for your post.Taboo wrote:You must be. You're also not very good at reading:Ibrahim wrote:How did I know you would find your way to this thread, and come down on this side? I must be psychic.Taboo wrote:Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.Who says I'm a conservative? I identify myself as a Manchester Liberal.every conservative on this forum has been "good."
Seconded.You must be. You're also not very good at reading:
Ibrahim did the same thing to Parodite.........
Seems that the Ibster may just be scanning and searching for an opportunity to insult.......
Or maybe Ibrahim is Losing his Ability to Read with Comprehension......
May need a multimedia approach to help him understand....... need pictures and videos to go with our posts.
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Re: Voter ID laws
No, you're just not very good at playing both sides of an issue.Taboo wrote:You must be. You're also not very good at readingIbrahim wrote:How did I know you would find your way to this thread, and come down on this side? I must be psychic.
Fine. That's not how I identify you.Who says I'm a conservative? I identify myself as a Manchester Liberal.every conservative on this forum has been "good."
Re: Voter ID laws
http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archi ... -6/263901/
If you think the Florida recount was bad just wait til November 6.
If you think the Florida recount was bad just wait til November 6.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
-Alexander Hamilton
Re: Voter ID laws
Not exactly. The US Constitution explicitly leaves suffrage to be determined by individual states, with certain restrictions, such as race and sex being forbidden as qualifiers.Taboo wrote:Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.
Re: Voter ID laws
Ok, what do the state constitutions say? Are there state constitutions that demand photo ID?Skin Job wrote:Not exactly. The US Constitution explicitly leaves suffrage to be determined by individual states, with certain restrictions, such as race and sex being forbidden as qualifiers.Taboo wrote:Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.
Re: Voter ID laws
I'm not familiar with all 50 state constitutions, but most do not demand it, nor do they expressly forbid it. Michigan, for example, has a state code requiring photo ID. Its constitution is rather vague on the subject, but the relevant portion of Article II of the 1963 Michigan Constitution is taken by many as justification for an ID requirement:Ibrahim wrote:Ok, what do the state constitutions say? Are there state constitutions that demand photo ID?Skin Job wrote:Not exactly. The US Constitution explicitly leaves suffrage to be determined by individual states, with certain restrictions, such as race and sex being forbidden as qualifiers.Taboo wrote:Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.
...The legislature shall enact laws to preserve the purity of elections, to preserve the secrecy of the ballot, to guard against abuses of the elective franchise, and to provide for a system of voter registration and absentee voting...
- monster_gardener
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- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
- Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........
Not very good when caught flat-footed by facts...
Ibrahim wrote:No, you're just not very good at playing both sides of an issue.Taboo wrote:You must be. You're also not very good at readingIbrahim wrote:How did I know you would find your way to this thread, and come down on this side? I must be psychic.
Fine. That's not how I identify you.Who says I'm a conservative? I identify myself as a Manchester Liberal.every conservative on this forum has been "good."
Thank you for your post, Ibrahim.
No, you're just not very good when you are caught flat-footed by facts.No, you're just not very good at playing both sides of an issue.
Taboo provided proof.......
You presented insult......
Not at all convincing.....
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Re: Voter ID laws
I don't see how that empowers them to prevent people from voting because they do not have government issued ID.Skin Job wrote:I'm not familiar with all 50 state constitutions, but most do not demand it, nor do they expressly forbid it. Michigan, for example, has a state code requiring photo ID. Its constitution is rather vague on the subject, but the relevant portion of Article II of the 1963 Michigan Constitution is taken by many as justification for an ID requirement:Ibrahim wrote:Ok, what do the state constitutions say? Are there state constitutions that demand photo ID?Skin Job wrote:Not exactly. The US Constitution explicitly leaves suffrage to be determined by individual states, with certain restrictions, such as race and sex being forbidden as qualifiers.Taboo wrote:Nonetheless, from a constitutional perspective, since there is no mandate to obtain an ID, it would be illegal to ask for one in order to be allowed to exercise the constitutional right to vote.
...The legislature shall enact laws to preserve the purity of elections, to preserve the secrecy of the ballot, to guard against abuses of the elective franchise, and to provide for a system of voter registration and absentee voting...
Re: Voter ID laws
Well, I think that is something that the US can rightly be proud of.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Re: Voter ID laws
True, if this system of trust is still warranted. I'm afraid the environment has become toxic enough to cast serious doubts on the assumption that corruption is not a significant problem. Reports of election judge's calls of alarm being roundly and perhaps systematically ignored look particularly troubling.
Re: Voter ID laws
Now that there is no election looming it would be a fine time to create a voter ID system and provide all eligible voters with ID, well ahead of the next election.
Re: Voter ID laws
Do you think there will be a foot-dragging contingent intent on forestalling implementation? Was your only objection to the timing of these laws? If so, why didn't you mention that before?
Re: Voter ID laws
Skin Job wrote:Do you think there will be a foot-dragging contingent intent on forestalling implementation? Was your only objection to the timing of these laws? If so, why didn't you mention that before?
Obviously the timing is the crux of the issue. Implement these measures as the last minute to suppress the vote, as the Penn GOP speaker admitted. That said the high turnout among certain groups suggests that people took the suppression effort seriously and were more motivated to turn out at a result.
Re: Voter ID laws
Yeah, but at no time in this thread did you indicate any support for any voter ID system, regardless of timing. Instead you spent a fair amount of time demonizing the very concept, along with its supporters. It's disheartening to think you have been being disingenuous all along. I might not always think the best of you, but so far I've not taken you for a liar. Why the change of heart?Ibrahim wrote:Skin Job wrote:Do you think there will be a foot-dragging contingent intent on forestalling implementation? Was your only objection to the timing of these laws? If so, why didn't you mention that before?
Obviously the timing is the crux of the issue. Implement these measures as the last minute to suppress the vote, as the Penn GOP speaker admitted. That said the high turnout among certain groups suggests that people took the suppression effort seriously and were more motivated to turn out at a result.
Re: Voter ID laws
I don't particularly support the idea, but if there is popular support to put one in place then now is the logical time to do it, not right before an election.Skin Job wrote:Yeah, but at no time in this thread did you indicate any support for any voter ID system, regardless of timing.Ibrahim wrote:Skin Job wrote:Do you think there will be a foot-dragging contingent intent on forestalling implementation? Was your only objection to the timing of these laws? If so, why didn't you mention that before?
Obviously the timing is the crux of the issue. Implement these measures as the last minute to suppress the vote, as the Penn GOP speaker admitted. That said the high turnout among certain groups suggests that people took the suppression effort seriously and were more motivated to turn out at a result.
Actually I correctly identified the supporters as having an agenda, as they were only championing this effort in an attempt to exclude voters in the 2012 election, particularly among groups that disproportionately vote Democratic. Insofar as I discussed the concept of voter ID it was only to point out that there is no mandate for it in the US or state constitutions.Instead you spent a fair amount of time demonizing the very concept, along with its supporters.
What?It's disheartening to think you have been being disingenuous all along. I might not always think the best of you, but so far I've not taken you for a liar. Why the change of heart?
Re: Voter ID laws
I don't understand. You can't open a bank account, enter a contract, buy alcohol or even enter a bar without an ID. Not having an ID is self-defeating in a modern society. I agree with Ibrahim that mandating this with only a couple of months to spare before an election is not ok. But people should have IDs, otherwise they are hamstringing themselves in any modern society.