Psst... hey dipshit, I know you don't actually read anyone's posts except to comb them for words that offend your delicate sensibilities, but I don't defend militarism. I have been consistently against our interventions... more consistently than you, as Mr P has been pointing out).Ibrahim wrote:Aside from being a false personal attack, its interesting how the desperation to defend militarism and the killing of civilians causes you to make such ironic personal attacks. I'm the intolerant would-be killer because I don't want the US to murder children in the third world. I'm paranoid because I'm referring to policies that nobody even disputes. I'm a hypocrite because I oppose both racism and killings civilians, and somehow this is inconsistent.Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:Ibs is a paranoid with no concept of loyal opposition. Anyone who disagrees is not just wrong, but of questionable character, possibly dangerous. An enemy to be silenced. Such people do not understand democracy and never will. They are the folks who self-righteously spout about the rights of man, while sending enemies of the people to the guillotine or the gulag without a thought of the irony.
Certainly there is nothing wrong with the ongoing killings conducted by the US government. They must continue. You can't stop. Actually you can't even say that maybe you should stop. The real problem is people who don't like the ongoing murders conducted by the US military.
Well fine them. I'm scum, and nothing I say should be taken seriously by patriotic heroes. Now could you stop killing civilians? Could you tell me why you can't, and what is gained my continuing to kill them?
Anti-Americanism worldwide
- Juggernaut Nihilism
- Posts: 1417
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:55 pm
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Then why make a series of false claims about my statements and motivations in this thread if not to defend the US killing of civilians and dismiss critiques of said practice? Perhaps you are simply not making yourself clear. Also, IIRC isn't your career based on the US military? If that is the case then militarism feeds you every day.Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:Psst... hey dipshit, I know you don't actually read anyone's posts except to comb them for words that offend your delicate sensibilities, but I don't defend militarism.Ibrahim wrote:Well fine them. I'm scum, and nothing I say should be taken seriously by patriotic heroes. Now could you stop killing civilians? Could you tell me why you can't, and what is gained my continuing to kill them?
My stance on killing civilians has been consistent. The intervention in Libya prevented the mass-killing of civilians in Benghazi, as was promised by the Gaddafi family, and as we are seeing take place in Aleppo and Damascus. Not that I have ever said intervention was a moral imperative, but in comparing interventions this one actually prevented civilian casualties Saying that this is the same as opposing ongoing pointless killing of civilians in e.g. Pakistan is almost as silly as claiming that opposing American militarism and racism is somehow inconsistent or hypocritical.I have been consistently against our interventions more consistently than you.
-
- Posts: 16973
- Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:35 am
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
I don't know anyone who doesn't think their killing of civilians will net future reductions in civilian deaths, do you Juggs?
I believe the North Korean government among others has threatened to kill innocent people over the last several years, I suppose we should go overthrow that government.
It's interesting that Ibs is so (fill in your preferred adjective here) about some people he has to go out of his way to even delete the name of that person out of a post. Wonder what DSMV would say about that.
I believe the North Korean government among others has threatened to kill innocent people over the last several years, I suppose we should go overthrow that government.
It's interesting that Ibs is so (fill in your preferred adjective here) about some people he has to go out of his way to even delete the name of that person out of a post. Wonder what DSMV would say about that.
Censorship isn't necessary
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Ibrahim,Ibrahim wrote:Re-reading the entire thread, it seems like there are three main types of response.
1. "Ibs you're a hypocrite because you don't think its ok to hate blacks but you do think its ok to hate Americans even though its the same thing! Also, you're Muslim." Not really going to argue this one. Fine, I'm a total piece of lavender. Everybody wins. Moving on.
2. The people who have a problem with America really have no right to have a problem with America. Either its their own fault, or their are really just jealous and not miffed about murder/torture/rape, or other countries are worse so why pick on the poor lil' USA when they aren't even as bad as exhibit A. I guess this is the most fertile one to quibble over, and the most obvious response to criticism: invalidate the people making the criticism.
3. Most interestingly, nobody even touched on the idea that the US could stop doing the things that are so upsetting to people. Not even a discussion of their necessity or possible net benefits, just totally ignored. War has to happen and civilians have to die and why discuss it? The cognitive lock is so severe that no other option is even considered.
But this is actually my advice, and I don't see why its beneath consideration:
Stop killing civilians. Don't kill any more civilians. Just stop it. Stop killing civilians. What's the worst that could happen? Just stop.
FWIW, I don't think you are a piece of lavender. Hell, I enjoy your fiesty persona. Way too much politeness in the world today for my tastes. Makes it hard to know what people are thinking. Give it to me and everyone else straight, and if they can't handle it, screw em. Offense is always in the receiver, not the transmitter.
Now to boost your self-confidense..... this me-against-the-world perspective seems to me to be an early proto Randian stage of your development of self awareness. I salute you. Don't be afraid to take the next step. It's not as dangerous or as lonely out there as most would have you believe. YOU CAN DO IT!!!!!
Once you kick yourself loose from the self imposed bondage of "I am sub-unit # NNNNNNN of demographic group W, or national group X, or religious group Y, or political group Z... or.... brace yourself..... tribe _____", you'll probably find it easier than ever to build common ground with other people. Sounds contradictory to some, but really its not. Most people seem to understand rational self-interest.
I have the utmost confidence in you brother. There is nothing to fear but fear itself. No one can make you feel inferior with out your consent.
Be Brave!!!
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Simple Minded,
Either you missed the joke or you're playing along, I can't tell. It works either way.
Anyway the point is that criticizing whomever is pointing out that the US continues to kill civilians for no discernible benefit, and that this is a good reason to dislike the US, doesn't change the basic facts that this is what is happening. Don't like me? Don't like Yemenis? I'm fine with that. Just stop killing civilians for no reason. Give it a try.
Either you missed the joke or you're playing along, I can't tell. It works either way.
Anyway the point is that criticizing whomever is pointing out that the US continues to kill civilians for no discernible benefit, and that this is a good reason to dislike the US, doesn't change the basic facts that this is what is happening. Don't like me? Don't like Yemenis? I'm fine with that. Just stop killing civilians for no reason. Give it a try.
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
So why don't Yemenis stop harboring the Al Qaeda animals, the folks that intentionally kill civilians, under the banner "religion of peace"? So simple. Give it a try.Ibrahim wrote:Simple Minded,
Either you missed the joke or you're playing along, I can't tell. It works either way.
Anyway the point is that criticizing whomever is pointing out that the US continues to kill civilians for no discernible benefit, and that this is a good reason to dislike the US, doesn't change the basic facts that this is what is happening. Don't like me? Don't like Yemenis? I'm fine with that. Just stop killing civilians for no reason. Give it a try.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
- Juggernaut Nihilism
- Posts: 1417
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:55 pm
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Ibs is missing the point. By attacking him, people aren't defending American militarism. We are simply pointing that his non stop disingenuous lies which have been flowing for years, make it hard to take him seriously and engage him in conversation. People aren't going to discuss a topic with him when they know that he doesn't really care about the topic, he only cares about making a point and putting a stick in the eye of the people he doesn't like. There is nothing worse than spending a half hour talking to someone only to realize that they were never listening, they were never discussing, they were just scanning your sentences for hot words that would launch a programmed subroutine of canned responses and accusations. When you watch that person do the same thing, in every topic, for years, eventually you stop taking him seriously. So we aren't reluctant to engage with you on American militarism, we're just reluctant to engage with you.
And you can come back with some nonsense about how this is a further evasion of the topic with ad him yadda yadda. But I'm telling you the truth.
And you can come back with some nonsense about how this is a further evasion of the topic with ad him yadda yadda. But I'm telling you the truth.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Anti-Americanism as a topic, I see.
I can't say I've read the entirety of the posted corpus here, but here are a few observations:
1) In my experience, anti-Americanism is often blended with anti-Capitalism and anti-Modernism. A lot of people who claim to hate America actually are simply angry against Capitalism, or against Modernity. They simply see America as the standard-bearer for both, regardless of whether capitalism and modernity actually are the true source of their grievances or whether America truly is the standard-bearer for both. In many cases, talking to people about their grievances actually reveals they are angry against the corruption in their own countries or against the shallowness of their own citizens. This America hatred is simply America as avatar of the great Satan.
2) Anti-Americanism predates American adventures in Eurasia. I find Ibrahim's argument that dead civilians -> anti-americanism only partially convincing. Sure, there are thousands of photos of dead babies and teddy-bears in the rubble thanks to the "subtle" nature of America's anti-terror policy in SW Asia (imagine a buffalo post-adrenaline-shot in mating season in a China shop). Yes, Americans are incompetent at long-term planning in foreign policy, and without a professional class of high-rank diplomats (top diplomats are political appointees with no foreign experience requirement), unlike the rest of the civilized world, their approach to diplomacy is by necessity amateurish. But try reading Jules Vernes, or Karl May, and you'll find that a pervasive sense of distaste towards the Yankees predates America's foreign entanglements. In fact, it even predates America. Recall the "perfidious Albion" and "nation of little shopkeepers" jabs at England date back 400 years.
3) Anti-Americanism as anti-Hegemonism. America, like it or not, is the top dog. Yes, even with the current crisis. Economically, militarily, culturally, educationally. People hate having a hegemon. Since in the real world there is no black vs white, but a band of grays, the choices facing a hegemon will never be pretty. The policeman will never be popular.
No matter what the hegemon does, it will be wrong. First bloody teddy-bear picture from Xistan, and out goes the worldwide cry: "Why does evil stupid America do nothing to stop the evil X group from massacring pure and innocent group Y!" Option A, America does nothing: "You American monsters, you let the evil Xs butcher Ys like there is no tomorrow. Obviously you only care about keeping (Precious Substance) flowing." Option B, America intervenes: "You American monsters, look at all the photos of bloody X-ian teddybears. Why do you always have to go meddling into sovereign nations' affairs? Obviously the true purpose of your invasion is not humanitarian, but to keep (Precious Substance) flowing."
4) Yes, America is stupid. There is no reason whatsoever to (still) be in Afghanistan. Or to have invaded Iraq.
"Sir, 19 men have crashed a plane into the WTC, killing thousands."
"Where are they from?"
"15 are from Saudi Arabia."
"Oh. Ho-hum. Ugh."
"I know sir. But their leader is in Afghanistan."
"Great! Send in 100,000 soldiers, tanks, helicopters, the works. And transport their fuel there at $400/gallon."
"Great idea sir. That ought to teach them. Should we also send in a special force to kill the man we're actually looking for?"
"No, we can trust our local allies."
... A year later.
"Sir, our allies betrayed us. We did not get the man."
"Oh, that's a pity. We'd better keep the 100,000 men there for 12 years just in case anyway."
"Yes sir. Also, invading countries and being the 'Decider' is fun, isn't it?"
"Um-ho-huh, yeah, kinda."
"Let me tell you about this evil man who tried to kill your Father."
...
I can't say I've read the entirety of the posted corpus here, but here are a few observations:
1) In my experience, anti-Americanism is often blended with anti-Capitalism and anti-Modernism. A lot of people who claim to hate America actually are simply angry against Capitalism, or against Modernity. They simply see America as the standard-bearer for both, regardless of whether capitalism and modernity actually are the true source of their grievances or whether America truly is the standard-bearer for both. In many cases, talking to people about their grievances actually reveals they are angry against the corruption in their own countries or against the shallowness of their own citizens. This America hatred is simply America as avatar of the great Satan.
2) Anti-Americanism predates American adventures in Eurasia. I find Ibrahim's argument that dead civilians -> anti-americanism only partially convincing. Sure, there are thousands of photos of dead babies and teddy-bears in the rubble thanks to the "subtle" nature of America's anti-terror policy in SW Asia (imagine a buffalo post-adrenaline-shot in mating season in a China shop). Yes, Americans are incompetent at long-term planning in foreign policy, and without a professional class of high-rank diplomats (top diplomats are political appointees with no foreign experience requirement), unlike the rest of the civilized world, their approach to diplomacy is by necessity amateurish. But try reading Jules Vernes, or Karl May, and you'll find that a pervasive sense of distaste towards the Yankees predates America's foreign entanglements. In fact, it even predates America. Recall the "perfidious Albion" and "nation of little shopkeepers" jabs at England date back 400 years.
3) Anti-Americanism as anti-Hegemonism. America, like it or not, is the top dog. Yes, even with the current crisis. Economically, militarily, culturally, educationally. People hate having a hegemon. Since in the real world there is no black vs white, but a band of grays, the choices facing a hegemon will never be pretty. The policeman will never be popular.
No matter what the hegemon does, it will be wrong. First bloody teddy-bear picture from Xistan, and out goes the worldwide cry: "Why does evil stupid America do nothing to stop the evil X group from massacring pure and innocent group Y!" Option A, America does nothing: "You American monsters, you let the evil Xs butcher Ys like there is no tomorrow. Obviously you only care about keeping (Precious Substance) flowing." Option B, America intervenes: "You American monsters, look at all the photos of bloody X-ian teddybears. Why do you always have to go meddling into sovereign nations' affairs? Obviously the true purpose of your invasion is not humanitarian, but to keep (Precious Substance) flowing."
4) Yes, America is stupid. There is no reason whatsoever to (still) be in Afghanistan. Or to have invaded Iraq.
"Sir, 19 men have crashed a plane into the WTC, killing thousands."
"Where are they from?"
"15 are from Saudi Arabia."
"Oh. Ho-hum. Ugh."
"I know sir. But their leader is in Afghanistan."
"Great! Send in 100,000 soldiers, tanks, helicopters, the works. And transport their fuel there at $400/gallon."
"Great idea sir. That ought to teach them. Should we also send in a special force to kill the man we're actually looking for?"
"No, we can trust our local allies."
... A year later.
"Sir, our allies betrayed us. We did not get the man."
"Oh, that's a pity. We'd better keep the 100,000 men there for 12 years just in case anyway."
"Yes sir. Also, invading countries and being the 'Decider' is fun, isn't it?"
"Um-ho-huh, yeah, kinda."
"Let me tell you about this evil man who tried to kill your Father."
...
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
(PS: Just in case people might get the idea that I'm partial to Obama)
...
JCoS: "Welcome to the white house sir!"
PoTUS44: "Thank you. Now, what to do about these wars?"
"Well, we could send MORE people in Afghanistan, and keep sending fuel at $400/gallon."
"Great idea, let's do that. And Iraq?"
"Well, we could arm and pay the people who are shooting at us, then leave."
"Excellent suggestion. How about world-wide terrorism?"
"Well, we were thinking about invading Iran, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen and a number of other countries..."
"No, no, no. My administration will only support regime change if the locals want it, and have an Islamist government prepared to take over. We must be smart, if we want to win hearts and minds."
"But sir, what about Iran, Somalia..."
"I have this great plan. You see, we fly these drones in countries where people who don't like us live. And we blow up people who don't like us. Including American citizens. You can see how that will help us make friends among the locals, and win us even more world-wide support. Do so. I want dozens killed each week. We have a lot of lost ground to make up in terms of local support."
"We will hugely ramp up drone attacks. Good idea, sir."
"Of course, it is vital that we only hit the bad evil people, and hurt no nice good children who hug teddy-bears, or weddings."
"Don't worry sir, a team comprised of a guy with a joystick in a drone-control base and a 20-year old intelligence analyst who barely speaks the local language will make it 100% likely that we only hit baddies."
...
JCoS: "Welcome to the white house sir!"
PoTUS44: "Thank you. Now, what to do about these wars?"
"Well, we could send MORE people in Afghanistan, and keep sending fuel at $400/gallon."
"Great idea, let's do that. And Iraq?"
"Well, we could arm and pay the people who are shooting at us, then leave."
"Excellent suggestion. How about world-wide terrorism?"
"Well, we were thinking about invading Iran, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen and a number of other countries..."
"No, no, no. My administration will only support regime change if the locals want it, and have an Islamist government prepared to take over. We must be smart, if we want to win hearts and minds."
"But sir, what about Iran, Somalia..."
"I have this great plan. You see, we fly these drones in countries where people who don't like us live. And we blow up people who don't like us. Including American citizens. You can see how that will help us make friends among the locals, and win us even more world-wide support. Do so. I want dozens killed each week. We have a lot of lost ground to make up in terms of local support."
"We will hugely ramp up drone attacks. Good idea, sir."
"Of course, it is vital that we only hit the bad evil people, and hurt no nice good children who hug teddy-bears, or weddings."
"Don't worry sir, a team comprised of a guy with a joystick in a drone-control base and a 20-year old intelligence analyst who barely speaks the local language will make it 100% likely that we only hit baddies."
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Reminds me of the following bon mot
~ Gamal Abdel NasserThe genius of you Americans is that you never make clear-cut stupid moves,
only complicated stupid moves which make the rest of us wonder at the possibility that we might be missing something.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
- monster_gardener
- Posts: 5334
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
- Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........
Taboo's Excellent Analysis 1 & Global Green Goddess Gripes..
Thank you VERY MUCH for your post, Taboo.Taboo wrote:Anti-Americanism as a topic, I see.
I can't say I've read the entirety of the posted corpus here, but here are a few observations:
1) In my experience, anti-Americanism is often blended with anti-Capitalism and anti-Modernism. A lot of people who claim to hate America actually are simply angry against Capitalism, or against Modernity. They simply see America as the standard-bearer for both, regardless of whether capitalism and modernity actually are the true source of their grievances or whether America truly is the standard-bearer for both. In many cases, talking to people about their grievances actually reveals they are angry against the corruption in their own countries or against the shallowness of their own citizens. This America hatred is simply America as avatar of the great Satan.
2) Anti-Americanism predates American adventures in Eurasia. I find Ibrahim's argument that dead civilians -> anti-americanism only partially convincing. Sure, there are thousands of photos of dead babies and teddy-bears in the rubble thanks to the "subtle" nature of America's anti-terror policy in SW Asia (imagine a buffalo post-adrenaline-shot in mating season in a China shop). Yes, Americans are incompetent at long-term planning in foreign policy, and without a professional class of high-rank diplomats (top diplomats are political appointees with no foreign experience requirement), unlike the rest of the civilized world, their approach to diplomacy is by necessity amateurish. But try reading Jules Vernes, or Karl May, and you'll find that a pervasive sense of distaste towards the Yankees predates America's foreign entanglements. In fact, it even predates America. Recall the "perfidious Albion" and "nation of little shopkeepers" jabs at England date back 400 years.
3) Anti-Americanism as anti-Hegemonism. America, like it or not, is the top dog. Yes, even with the current crisis. Economically, militarily, culturally, educationally. People hate having a hegemon. Since in the real world there is no black vs white, but a band of grays, the choices facing a hegemon will never be pretty. The policeman will never be popular.
No matter what the hegemon does, it will be wrong. First bloody teddy-bear picture from Xistan, and out goes the worldwide cry: "Why does evil stupid America do nothing to stop the evil X group from massacring pure and innocent group Y!" Option A, America does nothing: "You American monsters, you let the evil Xs butcher Ys like there is no tomorrow. Obviously you only care about keeping (Precious Substance) flowing." Option B, America intervenes: "You American monsters, look at all the photos of bloody X-ian teddybears. Why do you always have to go meddling into sovereign nations' affairs? Obviously the true purpose of your invasion is not humanitarian, but to keep (Precious Substance) flowing."
4) Yes, America is stupid. There is no reason whatsoever to (still) be in Afghanistan. Or to have invaded Iraq.
"Sir, 19 men have crashed a plane into the WTC, killing thousands."
"Where are they from?"
"15 are from Saudi Arabia."
"Oh. Ho-hum. Ugh."
"I know sir. But their leader is in Afghanistan."
"Great! Send in 100,000 soldiers, tanks, helicopters, the works. And transport their fuel there at $400/gallon."
"Great idea sir. That ought to teach them. Should we also send in a special force to kill the man we're actually looking for?"
"No, we can trust our local allies."
... A year later.
"Sir, our allies betrayed us. We did not get the man."
"Oh, that's a pity. We'd better keep the 100,000 men there for 12 years just in case anyway."
"Yes sir. Also, invading countries and being the 'Decider' is fun, isn't it?"
"Um-ho-huh, yeah, kinda."
"Let me tell you about this evil man who tried to kill your Father."
...
Excellent post.
Seconded.
And don't forget about the Green Goddess Gaia unDressing & Her Global Warming Crew........ Over-laps with the Anti-Capitalist Crew but has its own Green Gripes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_goddess_dressing
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
- monster_gardener
- Posts: 5334
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
- Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........
Taboo's Excellent Analysis 2
Thank you VERY MUCH for your post, Taboo.Taboo wrote:(PS: Just in case people might get the idea that I'm partial to Obama)
...
JCoS: "Welcome to the white house sir!"
PoTUS44: "Thank you. Now, what to do about these wars?"
"Well, we could send MORE people in Afghanistan, and keep sending fuel at $400/gallon."
"Great idea, let's do that. And Iraq?"
"Well, we could arm and pay the people who are shooting at us, then leave."
"Excellent suggestion. How about world-wide terrorism?"
"Well, we were thinking about invading Iran, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen and a number of other countries..."
"No, no, no. My administration will only support regime change if the locals want it, and have an Islamist government prepared to take over. We must be smart, if we want to win hearts and minds."
"But sir, what about Iran, Somalia..."
"I have this great plan. You see, we fly these drones in countries where people who don't like us live. And we blow up people who don't like us. Including American citizens. You can see how that will help us make friends among the locals, and win us even more world-wide support. Do so. I want dozens killed each week. We have a lot of lost ground to make up in terms of local support."
"We will hugely ramp up drone attacks. Good idea, sir."
"Of course, it is vital that we only hit the bad evil people, and hurt no nice good children who hug teddy-bears, or weddings."
"Don't worry sir, a team comprised of a guy with a joystick in a drone-control base and a 20-year old intelligence analyst who barely speaks the local language will make it 100% likely that we only hit baddies."
Also seconded.
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Excellent posts Taboo & Typhoon, to which I can only reply:
OH.. YEAH... (cleverly phrased to allow the reader to interpret it as either a challenge or agreement...)
OH.. YEAH... (cleverly phrased to allow the reader to interpret it as either a challenge or agreement...)
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
The invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam Hussein was to shake up the tree in the ME. The cold war more or less ended in 1991 and the first Gulf war should have done what the second accomplished. There was/is no longer a need for the US to encourage stability there lest the Soviets take advantage. In short order, the world will not even particularly need the oil from there.
People there need to be responsible for their own lives. That is the message. In doing so they need and likely will do so without involving the rest of the world in violently blaming other nations and people outside their own countries.
I have seen many people question whether or not Arabs and Muslims were even capable of ruling themselves. Which is a racist sentiment in that it is an excuse not to even let them try to do it.
People there need to be responsible for their own lives. That is the message. In doing so they need and likely will do so without involving the rest of the world in violently blaming other nations and people outside their own countries.
I have seen many people question whether or not Arabs and Muslims were even capable of ruling themselves. Which is a racist sentiment in that it is an excuse not to even let them try to do it.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
- Juggernaut Nihilism
- Posts: 1417
- Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:55 pm
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Woke up this morning to find Taboo's posts.... things have started off well.
"The fundamental rule of political analysis from the point of psychology is, follow the sacredness, and around it is a ring of motivated ignorance."
- Apollonius
- Posts: 1065
- Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2011 5:32 pm
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Ibrahim wrote:Given that the forum administrator told me that the majority of the members here want me banned, I'm going to go ahead and say that there isn't enough free speech on the Internet
.enki wrote:Those people would be so much more boring with you gone
I've never advocated banning anyone from this forum.
As I've said before, though, I do find Ibrahim to be boring. His posts are too predictable. He does have a good command of the English language, but as has been demonstrated conclusively many times by now, he doesn't read.
Often the aggressive know-it-all style works in reverse. Remember how fed up many of us became even trying to respond to Spengler.
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Apollonius wrote:Ibrahim wrote:Given that the forum administrator told me that the majority of the members here want me banned, I'm going to go ahead and say that there isn't enough free speech on the Internet
.enki wrote:Those people would be so much more boring with you gone
I've never advocated banning anyone from this forum.
As I've said before, though, I do find Ibrahim to be boring. His posts are too predictable. He does have a good command of the English language, but as has been demonstrated conclusively many times by now, he doesn't read.
Often the aggressive know-it-all style works in reverse. Remember how fed up many of us became even trying to respond to Spengler.
.
Ibrahim a great contributor to this and any forum he posts .. I read most of them .. he represent always the official Turkish government position .. but he very well informed pretty much worldwide, deep knowledge what he taking about
.
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
The government of Yemen, headed by longtime President Saleh, is allied with the US in trying to do exactly that, but the current generation of AQ in Yemen were actually radicalized while in prison without trial or charge after the US government pressured Saleh to crack down on the original Bin Laden-era AQ after 9/11 through 2005.Doc wrote:So why don't Yemenis stop harboring the Al Qaeda animals, the folks that intentionally kill civilians, under the banner "religion of peace"? So simple. Give it a try.Ibrahim wrote:Simple Minded,
Either you missed the joke or you're playing along, I can't tell. It works either way.
Anyway the point is that criticizing whomever is pointing out that the US continues to kill civilians for no discernible benefit, and that this is a good reason to dislike the US, doesn't change the basic facts that this is what is happening. Don't like me? Don't like Yemenis? I'm fine with that. Just stop killing civilians for no reason. Give it a try.
So in point of fact the US is killing children trying to help a quasi-dictator stamp out radicals he crated by jailing people in dungeons without trial on the instructions of the US in the first place. Don't believe me? Read up on it. Try Gregory Johnsen, he's probably the #1 American expert on Yemen and he's white and Christian to boot.
Anyway keep killing those kids for no reason if you want to. Support the Troops!!!!11!1!
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Agreed, this is often a motivation for anti-Americanism among, say, campus leftists and academics. Then again there are the people with mangled countrymen, or even family members, at the hands of US forces.Taboo wrote:Anti-Americanism as a topic, I see.
I can't say I've read the entirety of the posted corpus here, but here are a few observations:
1) In my experience, anti-Americanism is often blended with anti-Capitalism and anti-Modernism. A lot of people who claim to hate America actually are simply angry against Capitalism, or against Modernity.
The argument is from the original article, I'm only seconding it, but it also makes this concession and simply points out that killing people exacerbates it, and gives it a solid justification.2) Anti-Americanism predates American adventures in Eurasia. I find Ibrahim's argument that dead civilians -> anti-americanism only partially convincing.
I've actually argued how much power America has as "hegemon," though I would agree that they are currently the most powerful nation militarily. The problem is what this buys you in the modern world, compared with what it bought e.g. the Romans. Diminishing returns, I think. While I wasn't addressing opposition to any hegemon in principle, I do think there is some justification for that. Much like hating the king because he is a king, it also makes certain sense to detest anybody in the top spot. But I don't think this is driving anti-Americanism as much as the child-melting and prison/torture antics.3) Anti-Americanism as anti-Hegemonism. America, like it or not, is the top dog.
This is a function of patriotism/militarism. Many of the people on this very forum will agree that e.g. the Iraq war was ill-advised, but would still defend it to somebody like me on principle. Its not so much stupidity as a refusal to question "American exeptionalism" or however else militarism and supremacism is phrased and justified.4) Yes, America is stupid. There is no reason whatsoever to (still) be in Afghanistan. Or to have invaded Iraq.
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Odd. You'd think if you knew I was going to correct your various false historical claims you wouldn't have made them in the first place.Apollonius wrote:As I've said before, though, I do find Ibrahim to be boring. His posts are too predictable.
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Prunus persica wrote:he represent always the official Turkish government position
This has got to be one of the meanest things said about me so far.
Re: Anti-Americanism worldwide
Examples, please.Juggernaut Nihilism wrote:Ibs is missing the point. By attacking him, people aren't defending American militarism. We are simply pointing that his non stop disingenuous lies which have been flowing for years,
Oh, and I'll be busy over the holidays so if you post some shattering riposte I will get to it in time, I haven't disappeared because I am weeping in the fetal position.
Ah, I guess that settles that.But I'm telling you the truth.
- monster_gardener
- Posts: 5334
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 12:36 am
- Location: Trolla. Land of upside down trees and tomatos........
Ibrahim = Turkey?
Thank You Very Much for your Post, Azari.Prunus persica wrote:Apollonius wrote:Ibrahim wrote:Given that the forum administrator told me that the majority of the members here want me banned, I'm going to go ahead and say that there isn't enough free speech on the Internet
.enki wrote:Those people would be so much more boring with you gone
I've never advocated banning anyone from this forum.
As I've said before, though, I do find Ibrahim to be boring. His posts are too predictable. He does have a good command of the English language, but as has been demonstrated conclusively many times by now, he doesn't read.
Often the aggressive know-it-all style works in reverse. Remember how fed up many of us became even trying to respond to Spengler.
.
Ibrahim a great contributor to this and any forum he posts .. I read most of them .. he represent always the official Turkish government position .. but he very well informed pretty much worldwide, deep knowledge what he taking about
.
Hmmmmmmmmnnnnnnhe represent always the official Turkish government position
Azari are you really saying that Ibrahim = Turkey
If that is true.......
Then the official position of Turkey is that 90% of America/Uz is a dump........
And similar pernicious pronouncements proclaimed by Ibrahim....
Hope you are wrong........
For the love of G_d, consider you & I may be mistaken.
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Orion Must Rise: Killer Space Rocks Coming Our way
The Best Laid Plans of Men, Monkeys & Pigs Oft Go Awry
Woe to those who long for the Day of the Lord, for It is Darkness, Not Light
Re: Ibrahim = Turkey?
monster_gardener wrote:.
Prunus persica wrote:.
Ibrahim a great contributor to this and any forum he posts .. I read most of them .. he represent always the official Turkish government position .. but he very well informed pretty much worldwide, deep knowledge what he taking about
.
Hmmmmmmmmnnnnnnhe represent always the official Turkish government position
Azari are you really saying that Ibrahim = Turkey
If that is true.......
Then the official position of Turkey is that 90% of America/Uz is a dump........
And similar pernicious pronouncements proclaimed by Ibrahim....
Hope you are wrong.......
.
Look, Monster
The Generals and backbone of Kemalist, were against adventurism Erdogan letting himself in .. relying on America and Sheiks, always, pretty much without exception (ask Saddam or even Shah), deadly
Erdogan jumped out of the plane with parachute handed by Saudi, Qatari and CIA .. wait for the rude awakening
Generals would not let it happen .. but they were neutralized by NATO, planting phony evidence
Few yrs ago, Ibrahim was Kemalist, he now Erdogan'ist , Qadafi dictator, Assad evil and and
well, you tell me
.
Re: Counter Spin: Death to All Juice... Oops he meant Jews..
You can't blame him for not liking that particular type of juice.monster_gardener wrote:
Personally, I generally like most types of juice. In moderation, of course. Juice has lots of calories.
cultivate a white rose