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Yeah so that must be someone else in Iraq taking over city after city.
![Twisted Evil :twisted:](./images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif)
![Image](http://s29.postimg.org/xsc7ved4n/w_Iraq_358promo.jpg)
Thank You VERY MUCH for your Post and Maintaining the Forum, Typhoon.Typhoon wrote:It's just history repeating.
Who "lost" China?
Who "lost" Vietnam?
Who "lost" Iraq?
As if any of the above belonged to the US.
Nothing more than the all too predictable demise of the "1000 Year Empire" fantasy of Cheney, Rove, Wolfowitz, et al.
So what exactly should the US do?
Recommit hundreds of thousands of troops to place Iraq under permanent occupation with an ever accumulating cost in the trillions of dollars?
That's what it will take. There are no magic "solutions" that any POTUS can simply pull out of a hat.
I agree with you that this is VERY Bad idea....So what exactly should the US do?
Recommit hundreds of thousands of troops to place Iraq under permanent occupation with an ever accumulating cost in the trillions of dollars?
There are some magic solutions.......There are no magic "solutions" that any POTUS can simply pull out of a hat
It would be cheaper to print & distribute 317,000,000 tee shirts with the slogan:Typhoon wrote:It's just history repeating.
......
So what exactly should the US do?
Recommit hundreds of thousands of troops to place Iraq under permanent occupation with an ever accumulating cost in the trillions of dollars?
That's what it will take. There are no magic "solutions" that any POTUS can simply pull out of a hat.
Are you sure Japan needed European imperialism as a model?Zack Morris wrote:Lest you bring up Germany or Japan during WWII, consider that Japan already voluntarily mimicked Western governance structures long before the war (indeed, their campaign of aggression was modeled on European imperialism and ideas of racial and cultural superiority), necessitating much smaller post-war changes that were capable of being sustained internally, without direct US occupation.
I think Hans Bulvai made this point too. If you want short-term quiet in the Meddle East.. let the dicktators do their dirty job. They just kill their opponents and throw the rest who opens their mouths from which critical sounds escape... in jail.The Arabs have demonstrated time and time again that they are not yet capable of adopting or even willing to adopt Western political culture and are capable of enduring decades-long oppression and jihad. People like Assad and Hussein understand/understood this very well. Israel does, too. All three of these maintained internal order through endless occupation and never-ending, limitless reprisals. Unlike them, we have no reason to remain there for eternity, and genocide is not an option.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Zack,Zack Morris wrote:As the Colonel pointed out, there are no solutions here. None. You seem to be hinting that we are constrained by ethical principles from engaging in levels of arbitrary cruelty that would bring about defeat but that is highly dubious given the history of the region. There are no examples of civilization being successfully imposed on a people without continuous occupation and near total annihilation of their numbers, which is counter to the objective that Bush/Neocons like yourself set forth during the 2003 invasion: to bring about democracy and stable governance and leave, letting democracy spread organically while the oil flow paid for the invasion.
Lest you bring up Germany or Japan during WWII, consider that Japan already voluntarily mimicked Western governance structures long before the war (indeed, their campaign of aggression was modeled on European imperialism and ideas of racial and cultural superiority), necessitating much smaller post-war changes that were capable of being sustained internally, without direct US occupation. Germany, of course, had far more in common with the Allies to begin with, the war being almost an intracultural power struggle against a particular regime.
The Arabs have demonstrated time and time again that they are not yet capable of adopting or even willing to adopt Western political culture and are capable of enduring decades-long oppression and jihad. People like Assad and Hussein understand/understood this very well. Israel does, too. All three of these maintained internal order through endless occupation and never-ending, limitless reprisals. Unlike them, we have no reason to remain there for eternity, and genocide is not an option.
False.........there are no solutions here. None.
Yes.You seem to be hinting that we are constrained by ethical principles from engaging in levels of arbitrary cruelty that would bring about defeat.....
It might be a good idea to read Joshua & Judges in the Tanakh/Old Testament......but that is highly dubious given the history of the region.
Not so much.....There are no examples of civilization being successfully imposed on a people without continuous occupation and near total annihilation of their numbers,
I am neither. BTW Thank You VERY MUCH for the Godwin's Law forfeit!that Bush/Hitlerites like yourself
Maybe.....The Arabs have demonstrated time and time again that they are not yet capable of adopting or even willing to adopt Western political culture
I hope you are correct.Unlike them, we have no reason to remain there for eternity,
When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:
It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise.
Perhaps not yet for US......and genocide is not an option.
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Simple Minded.Simple Minded wrote:It would be cheaper to print & distribute 317,000,000 tee shirts with the slogan:Typhoon wrote:It's just history repeating.
......
So what exactly should the US do?
Recommit hundreds of thousands of troops to place Iraq under permanent occupation with an ever accumulating cost in the trillions of dollars?
That's what it will take. There are no magic "solutions" that any POTUS can simply pull out of a hat.
I AM THE 0.000000315%!
and in the interest of beating Monster Gardner to the punch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRhq-yO1KN8
Imagineand in the interest of beating Monster Gardner to the punch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRhq-yO1KN8
I don't know whether their early 20th century wars of aggression and conquest were explicitly modeled after European colonialism but when criticized, the Japanese are awfully quick to point out that there was a strong European precedent for this sort of behavior at the time. And this was also a period of (historically unprecedented?) self-induced radical modernization in Japan, most of which was modeled after the West. Certainly by the outbreak of war with the United States, the Japanese were accustomed to a political system and civil society that was very similar to that of other Western nations. Sure, Japanese is fundamentally different from Western culture in many ways, but to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong), it was never Japan's objective to overthrow or conquer the West. Rather, they wanted to be seated as equal at the table of world powers.Parodite wrote: Are you sure Japan needed European imperialism as a model?Maybe you are right. On the other hand... imperialism is just something that exists since time immemorial and everywhere.. just on a bigger scale: expansions of power, trade and often of territory. Somehow I think Asians don't need Europeans for that...
Exactly. Our options are limited. I believe that slowly but surely, external economic and cultural influence will prove corrosive to traditional Islamic society. But externally imposed Westernization? Forget about it unless you want to kill them all or install a brutal military regime. In either case, does that even count as meeting our objectives?I think Hans Bulvai made this point too. If you want short-term quiet in the Meddle East.. let the dicktators do their dirty job. They just kill their opponents and throw the rest who opens their mouths from which critical sounds escape... in jail.
Wrong. These "solutions" would not bring about what we want. We do not want to administer these countries through oppressive authoritarianism indefinitely. And even if we did, local thugs can only last so long before the situation explodes and we suffer the blowback.monster_gardener wrote: False.........
There are solutions.......![]()
Problem is that most of them are NOT Good.....![]()
![]()
The only thing to be learned from the Old Testament is that the Middle East was populated by genocidal idiots even then.It might be a good idea to read Joshua & Judges in the Tanakh/Old Testament......![]()
Yeah, this has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.Not so much.....There are no examples of civilization being successfully imposed on a people without continuous occupation and near total annihilation of their numbers,
To a large degree, the Japanese, perhaps beginning Prince Shotoku, imposed Chinese/Confucian culture on themselves down to Chinese characters which many say do not work that well for Japanese resulting in Japan having 3 or 4 'alphabets': Kanji (modified meaning Chinese characters), Katakana (Japanese syllabary ), Hiragana (Japanese syllabary ), and perhaps Romanji (Japanese rendered into using Roman/Western letters).....
Neither does this. And, for the record, the Russians eventually killed their foreign rulers and to this are fiercely proud of their cultural autonomy. Hitler had a good few years trying to subjugate Eastern Europeans, and then the Soviets tried their hand. Didn't work. And you think the mental midgets in the US military, foreign policy, and intelligence establishments (among them the several-times-reanimated corpse of Dick Cheney) could do a better job if they were free from the constraints of civilized behavior?And there is Russian history with Russian Monarchs who sometimes were to a large degree or totally foreign (Catherine the Great) and imposed foreign customs on the Russians....
The entire history of Islam's interaction with the outside world is but a footnote compared with what Europeans did between 1492 and the 1960's. There is literally no comparison. If in the next century the world is destroyed, it will be with Western innovations.From the Invasion of Spain to the Gates of Vienna to the Barbary Pirates to 911 & the Tsarnev Brothers, the attitude of the traditional/Jihadi Muslims is well summarized below:
Thank You VERY Much for your post, Rhapsody Parodite,Parodite wrote:Are you sure Japan needed European imperialism as a model?Zack Morris wrote:Lest you bring up Germany or Japan during WWII, consider that Japan already voluntarily mimicked Western governance structures long before the war (indeed, their campaign of aggression was modeled on European imperialism and ideas of racial and cultural superiority), necessitating much smaller post-war changes that were capable of being sustained internally, without direct US occupation.Maybe you are right. On the other hand... imperialism is just something that exists since time immemorial and everywhere.. just on a bigger scale: expansions of power, trade and often of territory. Somehow I think Asians don't need Europeans for that...
I think Hans Bulvai made this point too. If you want short-term quiet in the Meddle East.. let the dicktators do their dirty job. They just kill their opponents and throw the rest who opens their mouths from which critical sounds escape... in jail.The Arabs have demonstrated time and time again that they are not yet capable of adopting or even willing to adopt Western political culture and are capable of enduring decades-long oppression and jihad. People like Assad and Hussein understand/understood this very well. Israel does, too. All three of these maintained internal order through endless occupation and never-ending, limitless reprisals. Unlike them, we have no reason to remain there for eternity, and genocide is not an option.
You are correct, Rhap.Are you sure Japan needed European imperialism as a model?
I think both of you are rather short sighted in this. The real problem is that Islam at least in the ME is being run by people nostalgic for an 8th century lifestyle. What that is really about is fear of change. The same thing that fueled the Iranian revolution. They need to see where that gets them. Then they can figure out for themselves what they did wrong, instead of blaming Americans backed dictators for their woes. ME society is dysfunctional in the sense they have no way to feed themselves. A religion that does not allow for the modern world. If they stick to their religion as is they will fail as a civilization, and their off spring, if they have any, will end up as part of another civilization.Zack Morris wrote:I don't know whether their early 20th century wars of aggression and conquest were explicitly modeled after European colonialism but when criticized, the Japanese are awfully quick to point out that there was a strong European precedent for this sort of behavior at the time. And this was also a period of (historically unprecedented?) self-induced radical modernization in Japan, most of which was modeled after the West. Certainly by the outbreak of war with the United States, the Japanese were accustomed to a political system and civil society that was very similar to that of other Western nations. Sure, Japanese is fundamentally different from Western culture in many ways, but to my knowledge (correct me if I'm wrong), it was never Japan's objective to overthrow or conquer the West. Rather, they wanted to be seated as equal at the table of world powers.Parodite wrote: Are you sure Japan needed European imperialism as a model?Maybe you are right. On the other hand... imperialism is just something that exists since time immemorial and everywhere.. just on a bigger scale: expansions of power, trade and often of territory. Somehow I think Asians don't need Europeans for that...
This is quite different from the attitude of Arabs and much of the extended Islamic world, which does not see a future compatible with Western ideals, unlike pre-war German and Japanese civilization.
Exactly. Our options are limited. I believe that slowly but surely, external economic and cultural influence will prove corrosive to traditional Islamic society. But externally imposed Westernization? Forget about it unless you want to kill them all or install a brutal military regime. In either case, does that even count as meeting our objectives?I think Hans Bulvai made this point too. If you want short-term quiet in the Meddle East.. let the dicktators do their dirty job. They just kill their opponents and throw the rest who opens their mouths from which critical sounds escape... in jail.
Thank You Very Much for your post, Zack.Zack Morris wrote:Wrong. These "solutions" would not bring about what we want. We do not want to administer these countries through oppressive authoritarianism indefinitely. And even if we did, local thugs can only last so long before the situation explodes and we suffer the blowback.monster_gardener wrote: False.........
There are solutions.......![]()
Problem is that most of them are NOT Good.....![]()
![]()
The only thing to be learned from the Old Testament is that the Middle East was populated by genocidal idiots even then.It might be a good idea to read Joshua & Judges in the Tanakh/Old Testament......![]()
Yeah, this has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.Not so much.....There are no examples of civilization being successfully imposed on a people without continuous occupation and near total annihilation of their numbers,
To a large degree, the Japanese, perhaps beginning Prince Shotoku, imposed Chinese/Confucian culture on themselves down to Chinese characters which many say do not work that well for Japanese resulting in Japan having 3 or 4 'alphabets': Kanji (modified meaning Chinese characters), Katakana (Japanese syllabary ), Hiragana (Japanese syllabary ), and perhaps Romanji (Japanese rendered into using Roman/Western letters).....
Neither does this. And, for the record, the Russians eventually killed their foreign rulers and to this are fiercely proud of their cultural autonomy. Hitler had a good few years trying to subjugate Eastern Europeans, and then the Soviets tried their hand. Didn't work. And you think the mental midgets in the US military, foreign policy, and intelligence establishments (among them the several-times-reanimated corpse of Dick Cheney) could do a better job if they were free from the constraints of civilized behavior?And there is Russian history with Russian Monarchs who sometimes were to a large degree or totally foreign (Catherine the Great) and imposed foreign customs on the Russians....
The entire history of Islam's interaction with the outside world is but a footnote compared with what Europeans did between 1492 and the 1960's. There is literally no comparison. If in the next century the world is destroyed, it will be with Western innovations.From the Invasion of Spain to the Gates of Vienna to the Barbary Pirates to 911 & the Tsarnev Brothers, the attitude of the traditional/Jihadi Muslims is well summarized below:
That may be the problem.Wrong. These "solutions" would not bring about what we want.
And got worse leaders such as Stalin.....And, for the record, the Russians eventually killed their foreign rulers
Sure...... IIRC a major Russian insult is: Nyet Kulturny meaning Uncultured.......and to this are fiercely proud of their cultural autonomy.
Wondering if you are of Russian or other East European ancestry?Hitler had a good few years trying to subjugate Eastern Europeans, and then the Soviets tried their hand. Didn't work. And you think the mental midgets in the US military, foreign policy, and intelligence establishments (among them the several-times-reanimated corpse of Dick Cheney) could do a better job if they were free from the constraints of civilized behavior?
I doubt that the victims of the Islamic raiders & invaders would agreeThe entire history of Islam's interaction with the outside world is but a footnote compared with what Europeans did between 1492 and the 1960's.
And if in the next century, humanity & friends colonize the Solar System and reach for the Stars, it will be with Western Innovations.........If in the next century the world is destroyed, it will be with Western innovations.
MG,monster_gardener wrote:
That may be the problem.
We may not want the same things or if we do, our priorities are different.
So let's stop saying "we" when you mean you and I mean me.![]()
Thank You VERY MUCH for your reply, Simple Minded.Simple Minded wrote:MG,monster_gardener wrote:
That may be the problem.
We may not want the same things or if we do, our priorities are different.
So let's stop saying "we" when you mean you and I mean me.![]()
As the official spokesperson for the entire human race, thruout the solar system, but not necessarily the "_______ community", I Thank you!
Remember the olden days when someone would use the word "we" and the reply was often "We? We? Wadda ya got a mouse in your pocket?"
Exaggerating numbers in the quest for power over others is the name of the game in representative government.
Arrogance, vanity, ignorance, and naiveté will never go out of style. If only I could find someone arrogant, vane, ignorant, and naïve enough to serve as my official spokesperson.........
I always thought that the person holding the sign "I am the 99%!" was probably not a math major, but perhaps a AGW climatologist!
Honest mistake, It was just a slight rounding error from I am the 0.00000033%!
I think I do.....Though I remember "tapeworm"Remember the olden days when someone would use the word "we" and the reply was often "We? We? Wadda ya got a mouse in your pocket?"
MG,monster_gardener wrote:Thank You VERY MUCH for your reply, Simple Minded.Simple Minded wrote:
MG,
As the official spokesperson for the entire human race, thruout the solar system, but not necessarily the "_______ community", I Thank you!
And VERY Much also for the Kind Words of Agreement.
Am tempted to say we![]()
Seem to Agree
To try not to use "we"
Improperly
But Instead
Will say
You and I
They will probably become obsessed with instagramming pics of their people food treats and kitty pron.Just think how messed up the world will be when animals get access to smartphones and the internet!
http://www.strategypage.com/%5Chtmw%5Ch ... 40717.aspxMr. Perfect wrote:Haven't seen one person in the world ask the right question about this yet. That question is, "are recent events in Iraq a concern for US et al security interests". The answer is unequivocally yes.
Everyone fantasized that the Milo Doctrine meant no more war, it doesn't. It allows the people you want to genocide to come out of the woodwork, gives you names and faces. That's all. If you take "genocide" off the table then the number of dead will only increase.
Democrats are not cut out for this. Neither are Euro leftists.
Meanwhile the Wikileaks documents clearly show there were still a lot of chemical weapons in Iraq in 2003 and Saddam’s plan to rebuild his chemical weapons capabilities as soon as the UN embargo was gone were clear and easy for Iraq to accomplish. What is lost in all this conspiracy talk was that Iraq still has the capability to rebuild its chemical weapons arsenal and manufacturing capability. While most of the key technical people were Sunni Arabs (and thus unlikely to work for the current Shia government), that expertise can be hired, as can the specialists needed to run the chemical plants that are quite legal until they are tweaked to produce deadly chemical weapons instead of useful and quite beneficial chemicals. For some reason that never became a headline grabbing story.
How so?Mr. Perfect wrote:Haven't seen one person in the world ask the right question about this yet. That question is, "are recent events in Iraq a concern for US et al security interests". The answer is unequivocally yes.
Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, and Harry Truman.Mr. Perfect wrote:Haven't seen one person in the world ask the right question about this yet. That question is, "are recent events in Iraq a concern for US et al security interests". The answer is unequivocally yes.
. . .
Democrats are not cut out for this. . . .
So how would this speculation place the US at risk?Doc wrote:http://www.strategypage.com/%5Chtmw%5Ch ... 40717.aspxMr. Perfect wrote:Haven't seen one person in the world ask the right question about this yet. That question is, "are recent events in Iraq a concern for US et al security interests". The answer is unequivocally yes.
Everyone fantasized that the Milo Doctrine meant no more war, it doesn't. It allows the people you want to genocide to come out of the woodwork, gives you names and faces. That's all. If you take "genocide" off the table then the number of dead will only increase.
Democrats are not cut out for this. Neither are Euro leftists.
Meanwhile the Wikileaks documents clearly show there were still a lot of chemical weapons in Iraq in 2003 and Saddam’s plan to rebuild his chemical weapons capabilities as soon as the UN embargo was gone were clear and easy for Iraq to accomplish. What is lost in all this conspiracy talk was that Iraq still has the capability to rebuild its chemical weapons arsenal and manufacturing capability. While most of the key technical people were Sunni Arabs (and thus unlikely to work for the current Shia government), that expertise can be hired, as can the specialists needed to run the chemical plants that are quite legal until they are tweaked to produce deadly chemical weapons instead of useful and quite beneficial chemicals. For some reason that never became a headline grabbing story.
With the "Caliphate" comes the Chemical Weapons experts.