Did Mohammed Exist?

[monster_gardener]

New book out from Robert Spencer

Spencer is a joke . . .

And this opinion comes from someone who thinks C. S. Lewis is a joke. Poor Spencer never had a prayer.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Marcus.

And this opinion comes from someone who thinks C. S. Lewis is a joke.

Please post the link for that........ Sounds hilarious oops I mean interesting........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis

If Ibrahim thinks C.S. Lewis is a joke as a scholar I wonder what his standards for scholarship are...........

FLASH of INTUITION!

I've got it!

AGREEMENT with Ibrahim!!!!

[Hoosiernorm]

Ibs says he also like to pull the wings off flies in his spare time, which is I think sociopathic behavior. Would explain some things.

No one wants to be the fly though

[monster_gardener]

Some Spencer background:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Spe ... Background

Spencer received a B.A. in 1983 and an M.A. in 1986 in religious studies from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. His masters thesis was on a Catholic history topic.[6] He has said he has been studying Islamic theology, law, and history on his own since 1980.[1][7]

...

Spencer named Paul Weyrich... as a mentor of his writings on Islam.

A B.A. specializing in Catholic history, and then some home study. And I was questioning this man's credentials to "discover shocking new information" about Islamic history?




His mentor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Weyrich

Paul M. Weyrich (October 7, 1942 – December 18, 2008[1][2][3][4]) was an American conservative political activist and commentator, most notable as a figurehead of the New Right. He co-founded the Heritage Foundation,[5] a conservative think tank and the Free Congress Foundation, another conservative think tank.

Read on. I didn't see any part where Weyrich studied or knew anything about Islam.




I always suggest Lewis to people who know SFA about Islam. Let's look at his credentials by way of comparison:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis

Lewis graduated in 1936 from the School of Oriental Studies (now SOAS, School of Oriental and African Studies) at the University of London with a B.A. in history with special reference to the Near and Middle East; and earned his Ph.D. three years later, also from SOAS, specializing in the history of Islam.[8] Lewis also studied law, going part of the way toward becoming a solicitor, but returned to study Middle Eastern history. He undertook post-graduate studies at the University of Paris, where he studied with the orientalist Louis Massignon and earned the "Diplôme des Études Sémitiques" in 1937.[1] He returned to SOAS in 1938 as an assistant lecturer in Islamic History.

During the Second World War, Lewis served in the British Army in the Royal Armoured Corps and Intelligence Corps in 1940–41, before being seconded to the Foreign Office. After the war, he returned to SOAS, and in 1949, at the age of 33, he was appointed to the new chair in Near and Middle Eastern History.[9]

In 1974, aged 57, Lewis accepted a joint position at Princeton University and the Institute for Advanced Study, also located in Princeton, New Jersey. The terms of his appointment were such that Lewis taught only one semester per year, and being free from administrative responsibilities, he could devote more time to research than previously. Consequently, Lewis's arrival at Princeton marked the beginning of the most prolific period in his research career during which he published numerous books and articles based on the previously accumulated materials.[10] In addition, it was in the U.S. that Lewis became a public intellectual. Upon his retirement from Princeton in 1986, Lewis served at Cornell University until 1990.[1]

Lewis has been a naturalized citizen of the United States since 1982. He married Ruth Hélène Oppenhejm in 1947 with whom he had a daughter and a son before the marriage was dissolved in 1974.[1]

In 1966, Lewis was a founding member of the learned society, Middle East Studies Association of North America (MESA), but in 2007, he broke away and founded Association for the Study of the Middle East and Africa (ASMEA) to challenge MESA, which the New York Sun noted as "dominated by academics who have been critical of Israel and of America's role in the Middle East."[11] The organization was formed as an academic society dedicated to promoting the highest standards of research and teaching in Middle Eastern and African studies, and related fields,[12] with Lewis as Chairman of its academic council.

In 1990 the National Endowment for the Humanities selected Lewis for the Jefferson Lecture, the U.S. federal government's highest honor for achievement in the humanities. His lecture, entitled "Western Civilization: A View from the East,"[13] was revised and reprinted in The Atlantic Monthly under the title "The Roots of Muslim Rage."[14] His 2007 Irving Kristol Lecture, given to the American Enterprise Institute, was published as Europe and Islam.

But hey, I'm probably being a typical irrational lying Muslim here. People should make their own choice.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

I'm probably being a typical irrational lying Muslim here.

You are not irrational but you may be lying at least by omission below.......*

Spencer received a B.A. in 1983 and an M.A. in 1986 in religious studies from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. His masters thesis was on a Catholic history topic.[6] He has said he has been studying Islamic theology, law, and history on his own since 1980.[1][7]

...

Spencer named Paul Weyrich... as a mentor of his writings on Islam.

A B.A. specializing in Catholic history, and then some home study. And I was questioning this man's credentials to "discover shocking new information" about Islamic history?

Note that you seem to have "conveniently" omitted the M.A. in religious studies.....

A mistake or a less than clever bit of deception?

Perhaps I should give you the benefit of the doubt as your bias against critics of Islam is so flagrant that even I have noted you disregard facts that don't fit your worldview: "don't interest me" per a recent post........

May have been a subconscious slip..... You probably WANTED Spencer's qualifications to be only "A B.A. specializing in Catholic history, and then some home study."


*Interesting that you mention lying as typical for Muslims.... I suspect it is when Muslims are up to Jihad and dealing with infidels or different brands of Muslims... Actually it's rather Tacky ..... I Kid oops I mean Kitman you not ........

[Mr. Perfect]

Actually MG the degree is from an NC school which used to be a SLAVE STATE, and so this person is clearly a racist and would therefore hate muslims. Come on MG, come on.

[Milo]

Even if Spencer is a lousy scholar, or no scholar at all, it's about time that Islam got the same treatment that every other religion does.

And Karen Armstrong is a scholar with no training in religious studies at all who is a perfect Dhimmi, so fair is fair.

[Ibrahim]

Even if Spencer is a lousy scholar, or no scholar at all, it's about time that Islam got the same treatment that every other religion does.

Christian Europeans have been criticizing on Islam since day one (and vice versa). There is a mountain of Byzantine texts on the subject, then of course Crusades-era Latin Christian literature, then literature from the Ottoman/Habsburg wars, then the colonial era, where the traditional sports fan "we hate 'em cuz they ain't us" gets heavily spiced with pseudo-scientific racism, and finally we get to the modern era of post-9/11 hysteria and Fjordman-style neo-Nazism.

So, other than the indisputable fact that people have been criticizing Islam since its inception, you've got a pretty good point here. Oh, that was your point? Sorry.

And Karen Armstrong is a scholar with no training in religious studies at all who is a perfect Dhimmi, so fair is fair.

Actually you are wrong in here as well. Armstrong is a former nun, which necessarily involves some religious training, and she failed to complete a PhD after undergraduate studies at Oxford. This places her at exactly the same level of formal academic qualifications as Spencer.


So let us agree then that Armstrong and Spencer are both unqualified. You still choose to read and encourage others to read the works of one of them. Coincidentally the one that produces propaganda to spread hatred and mistrust. I, on the other hand, never cited Armstrong as an expert on anything, ever.

[Mr. Perfect]

Actually Milo is really on the mark here.

I am sure there are mountains of literature criticizing Islam, but the reality of it is that Islam has been so unimportant to the west for a couple of centuries now that westerners really don't know anything about Islam, from an apologists point of view or a critic's, so it's all fair game.

[Ammianus]

Milo,

Hey man, don't hijack my thread ! Directions to there are here

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=614

Which, dare I say, features a much more robust, serious, and scholarly work along with links to other useful nuggets of info.

You could do better than recommending Spencer's work, Milo, and you know it.

[Hoosiernorm]

OK Ibrahim was Mohammad qualified enough to write the Koran? I mean what were his credentials?

[monster_gardener]

Even if Spencer is a lousy scholar, or no scholar at all, it's about time that Islam got the same treatment that every other religion does.

Christian Europeans have been criticizing on Islam since day one (and vice versa). There is a mountain of Byzantine texts on the subject, then of course Crusades-era Latin Christian literature, then literature from the Ottoman/Habsburg wars, then the colonial era, where the traditional sports fan "we hate 'em cuz they ain't us" gets heavily spiced with pseudo-scientific racism, and finally we get to the modern era of post-9/11 hysteria and Fjordman-style neo-Nazism.

So, other than the indisputable fact that people have been criticizing Islam since its inception, you've got a pretty good point here. Oh, that was your point? Sorry.

And Karen Armstrong is a scholar with no training in religious studies at all who is a perfect Dhimmi, so fair is fair.

Actually you are wrong in here as well. Armstrong is a former nun, which necessarily involves some religious training, and she failed to complete a PhD after undergraduate studies at Oxford. This places her at exactly the same level of formal academic qualifications as Spencer.


So let us agree then that Armstrong and Spencer are both unqualified. You still choose to read and encourage others to read the works of one of them. Coincidentally the one that produces propaganda to spread hatred and mistrust. I, on the other hand, never cited Armstrong as an expert on anything, ever.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

This places her at exactly the same level of formal academic qualifications as Spencer.

IMVHO, Incorrect.

Per my previous post in reply to you, Robert Spencer has a Master of Arts (MA) which is an advanced degree.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=695&p=16248#p16216

Per her wiki, Karen Armstrong seems to have only an undergraduate degree.....

Once she had advanced from postulant and novice to professed nun, she enrolled in St Anne's College, Oxford, to study English. Armstrong left her order in 1969 while still a student at Oxford. After graduating with a Congratulatory First, she embarked on a DPhil on the poet Tennyson. According to Armstrong, she wrote her dissertation on a topic that had been approved by the university committee. Nevertheless it was failed by her external examiner on the grounds that the topic had been unsuitable.[2] Armstrong did not formally protest this verdict, nor did she embark upon a new topic but instead abandoned hope of an academic career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Armstrong#Early_life

So a completed Master may beat a failed Ph.D especially in Islamic Studies

[Ibrahim]

OK Ibrahim was Mohammad qualified enough to write the Koran? I mean what were his credentials?

Ah, Muhammad didn't write the Quran. It was dictated to him by God. Now if you want to question God's credentials...

[Ibrahim]

Milo,

Hey man, don't hijack my thread ! Directions to there are here

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=614

Which, dare I say, features a much more robust, serious, and scholarly work along with links to other useful nuggets of info.

You could do better than recommending Spencer's work, Milo, and you know it.

While I still disagree with the theory, Holland's book is miles ahead of Spencer in terms of credibility. The discussion in the other thread was more historically sophisticated as a result.

[Milo]

Even if Spencer is a lousy scholar, or no scholar at all, it's about time that Islam got the same treatment that every other religion does.

Christian Europeans have been criticizing on Islam since day one (and vice versa). There is a mountain of Byzantine texts on the subject, then of course Crusades-era Latin Christian literature, then literature from the Ottoman/Habsburg wars, then the colonial era, where the traditional sports fan "we hate 'em cuz they ain't us" gets heavily spiced with pseudo-scientific racism, and finally we get to the modern era of post-9/11 hysteria and Fjordman-style neo-Nazism.

So, other than the indisputable fact that people have been criticizing Islam since its inception, you've got a pretty good point here. Oh, that was your point? Sorry.

And Karen Armstrong is a scholar with no training in religious studies at all who is a perfect Dhimmi, so fair is fair.

Actually you are wrong in here as well. Armstrong is a former nun, which necessarily involves some religious training, and she failed to complete a PhD after undergraduate studies at Oxford. This places her at exactly the same level of formal academic qualifications as Spencer.


So let us agree then that Armstrong and Spencer are both unqualified. You still choose to read and encourage others to read the works of one of them. Coincidentally the one that produces propaganda to spread hatred and mistrust. I, on the other hand, never cited Armstrong as an expert on anything, ever.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

This places her at exactly the same level of formal academic qualifications as Spencer.

IMVHO, Incorrect.

Per my previous post in reply to you, Robert Spencer has a Master of Arts (MA) which is an advanced degree.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=695&p=16248#p16216

Per her wiki, Karen Armstrong seems to have only an undergraduate degree.....

Once she had advanced from postulant and novice to professed nun, she enrolled in St Anne's College, Oxford, to study English. Armstrong left her order in 1969 while still a student at Oxford. After graduating with a Congratulatory First, she embarked on a DPhil on the poet Tennyson. According to Armstrong, she wrote her dissertation on a topic that had been approved by the university committee. Nevertheless it was failed by her external examiner on the grounds that the topic had been unsuitable.[2] Armstrong did not formally protest this verdict, nor did she embark upon a new topic but instead abandoned hope of an academic career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Armstrong#Early_life

So a completed Master may beat a failed Ph.D especially in Islamic Studies

Spencer's MA is in religious studies, Armstrong has a BA in English.

So Spencer's education is more germane to the topic of this book as well.

However, I have never seen a Muslim criticize the credentials of someone who praises Islam. Must be a coincidence!

[monster_gardener]

Even if Spencer is a lousy scholar, or no scholar at all, it's about time that Islam got the same treatment that every other religion does.

Christian Europeans have been criticizing on Islam since day one (and vice versa). There is a mountain of Byzantine texts on the subject, then of course Crusades-era Latin Christian literature, then literature from the Ottoman/Habsburg wars, then the colonial era, where the traditional sports fan "we hate 'em cuz they ain't us" gets heavily spiced with pseudo-scientific racism, and finally we get to the modern era of post-9/11 hysteria and Fjordman-style neo-Nazism.

So, other than the indisputable fact that people have been criticizing Islam since its inception, you've got a pretty good point here. Oh, that was your point? Sorry.

And Karen Armstrong is a scholar with no training in religious studies at all who is a perfect Dhimmi, so fair is fair.

Actually you are wrong in here as well. Armstrong is a former nun, which necessarily involves some religious training, and she failed to complete a PhD after undergraduate studies at Oxford. This places her at exactly the same level of formal academic qualifications as Spencer.


So let us agree then that Armstrong and Spencer are both unqualified. You still choose to read and encourage others to read the works of one of them. Coincidentally the one that produces propaganda to spread hatred and mistrust. I, on the other hand, never cited Armstrong as an expert on anything, ever.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

This places her at exactly the same level of formal academic qualifications as Spencer.

IMVHO, Incorrect.

Per my previous post in reply to you, Robert Spencer has a Master of Arts (MA) which is an advanced degree.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=695&p=16248#p16216

Per her wiki, Karen Armstrong seems to have only an undergraduate degree.....

Once she had advanced from postulant and novice to professed nun, she enrolled in St Anne's College, Oxford, to study English. Armstrong left her order in 1969 while still a student at Oxford. After graduating with a Congratulatory First, she embarked on a DPhil on the poet Tennyson. According to Armstrong, she wrote her dissertation on a topic that had been approved by the university committee. Nevertheless it was failed by her external examiner on the grounds that the topic had been unsuitable.[2] Armstrong did not formally protest this verdict, nor did she embark upon a new topic but instead abandoned hope of an academic career.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Armstrong#Early_life

So a completed Master may beat a failed Ph.D especially in Islamic Studies

Spencer's MA is in religious studies, Armstrong has a BA in English.

So Spencer's education is more germane to the topic of this book as well.

However, I have never seen a Muslim criticize the credentials of someone who praises Islam. Must be a coincidence!

Thank you VERY Much for your post, Milo.

Spencer's MA is in religious studies, Armstrong has a BA in English.

So Spencer's education is more germane to the topic of this book as well.

Quite Correct.

Should have mentioned that.......... Thought of it after I posted.........

However, I have never seen a Muslim criticize the credentials of someone who praises Islam. Must be a coincidence!

Sounds about right.......

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=695&start=25#p16212

[AzariLoveIran]

.


Tom Holland's "In the Shadow of the Sword"


.

[Milo]

.


Tom Holland's "In the Shadow of the Sword"
.

Holland thinks that Mohammed did exist people. This thread is another topic altogether form his book.

Funny how many of the (insert Muslim hot button term of the week here) don't want this topic either. When I posed the question of M's existence on the Spengler board, he said it didn't matter!

[AzariLoveIran]

.

.


Tom Holland's "In the Shadow of the Sword"
.

Holland thinks that Mohammed did exist people. This thread is another topic altogether form his book.

Funny how many of the (insert Muslim hot button term of the week here) don't want this topic either. When I posed the question of M's existence on the Spengler board, he said it didn't matter !

.

Milo ,

IMO , that book from Tom Holland is EXTREMELY interesting

Whether MO existed or not immaterial

not the slightest historical evidence Moses existed, same with Jesus

does it make any difference to where humanity right now ? ?

NO

Mo, contrary to Moses and Jesus SAGA, never said or claimed he divine or sent by God or son of God or or or

Matter of fact, in many instances, when asked to pull miracles .. as Moses & Jesus apparently did on the go .. MO replied he ordinary human being and can not do anything others can not do .. only claim he had, was, G_D, sometimes, talks to him

Well

MILO

G_D talks to all of us, I talk with him daily, sometimes hourly

So, as MO being a normal guy, I do not see why he should not have existed ? ?

whether he did or not, not a big deal

but

Tom Holland bring a whole pack of new issues to the debate .. very important issues

Not read his book yet, but, seems, he saying, Islam was formulated 200 yrs after MO died

well

Seems, when Mo died, his generals, Omar & company, for many hundred years were tyrannizing that whole space, thinking genuflect MO, lot of vivid evidence around

and

seems, Islam as a religion was formulated much later, not by Arabia, but, others

Iranians


Look in WiKi for philosophers in Islam

pretty much all Pomegranates


.

[Mr. Perfect]

However, I have never seen a Muslim criticize the credentials of someone who praises Islam. Must be a coincidence!

[Mr. Perfect]

OK Ibrahim was Mohammad qualified enough to write the Koran? I mean what were his credentials?

Ah, Muhammad didn't write the Quran. It was dictated to him by God. Now if you want to question God's credentials...

No it means Allah does not require any credentials.

[Hoosiernorm]

OK Ibrahim was Mohammad qualified enough to write the Koran? I mean what were his credentials?

Ah, Muhammad didn't write the Quran. It was dictated to him by God. Now if you want to question God's credentials...

That would be an entirely different book

[Ibrahim]

Spencer's MA is in religious studies, Armstrong has a BA in English.

So Spencer's education is more germane to the topic of this book as well.

Of course you omit the fact that Spencer specialized in Catholic history, and his self-proclaimed "mentor" on Islamic subjects had no education in the field whatsoever. Moreover, Armstrong was a Catholic nun and did doctoral work at Oxford, and though did not complete that degree it demonstrates that both Armstrong and Spencer have done graduate work.


You know you've backed the wrong horse when you can't you even be honest about the qualifications of two unqualified people.

However, I have never seen a Muslim criticize the credentials of someone who praises Islam. Must be a coincidence!

Given your propensity for promoting and parroting faux-scholarship designed to appeal to uneducated racists, I don't think your anecdotes about what you've "seen Muslims" do are very meaningful.

[Ibrahim]

.


Tom Holland's "In the Shadow of the Sword"
.

Holland thinks that Mohammed did exist people. This thread is another topic altogether form his book.

Funny how many of the (insert Muslim hot button term of the week here) don't want this topic either. When I posed the question of M's existence on the Spengler board, he said it didn't matter!

While both you and Spengler are racist propagandists, he has pretensions of being a serious intellectual. He doesn't like being reminded what circles he really moves in.

[Ibrahim]

OK Ibrahim was Mohammad qualified enough to write the Koran? I mean what were his credentials?

Ah, Muhammad didn't write the Quran. It was dictated to him by God. Now if you want to question God's credentials...

That would be an entirely different book

I think Hitchens, Dawkins, et al have published a few on that subject.

Hitchens' argument about God is actually very similar to Spencer's claims about Muhammad. "He doesn't/didn't exists, but it he does/did he is/was an asshole." Heady stuff!

[Hoosiernorm]

OK Ibrahim was Mohammad qualified enough to write the Koran? I mean what were his credentials?

Ah, Muhammad didn't write the Quran. It was dictated to him by God. Now if you want to question God's credentials...

That would be an entirely different book

I think Hitchens, Dawkins, et al have published a few on that subject.

Hitchens' argument about God is actually very similar to Spencer's claims about Muhammad. "He doesn't/didn't exists, but it he does/did he is/was an asshole." Heady stuff!

Have they ever tried to translate the Koran into 16th century english? I mean it simply may need a make over that would meet the approval of the audience.

[monster_gardener]

Spencer's MA is in religious studies, Armstrong has a BA in English.

So Spencer's education is more germane to the topic of this book as well.

Of course you omit the fact that Spencer specialized in Catholic history, and his self-proclaimed "mentor" on Islamic subjects had no education in the field whatsoever. Moreover, Armstrong was a Catholic nun and did doctoral work at Oxford, and though did not complete that degree it demonstrates that both Armstrong and Spencer have done graduate work.


You know you've backed the wrong horse when you can't you even be honest about the qualifications of two unqualified people.

However, I have never seen a Muslim criticize the credentials of someone who praises Islam. Must be a coincidence!

Given your propensity for promoting and parroting faux-scholarship designed to appeal to uneducated racists, I don't think your anecdotes about what you've "seen Muslims" do are very meaningful.

Thank you Very Much for your post, Ibrahim.

You know you've backed the wrong horse when you can't you even be honest about the qualifications of two unqualified people.

It is now very apparent that you are the one, Ibrahim, with a problem about being honest about the qualifications......

It seems you still can't bring yourself to admit that Spencer has a MASTER of ARTS in RELIGIOUS STUDIES

So you say

both Armstrong and Spencer have done graduate work.

Again deception..............

Trying to imply equivalency...............

I suppose it could be said that you are getting a little closer to telling the truth..........*

Last time you said:

A B.A. specializing in Catholic history, and then some home study.

So this is a little closer..........

Still NOT the whole truth........

I really do believe you may be a lawyer... Usually you are very slick with the spin... But this time even I can see the lying by omission and deception...

Or is it just that you can't admit a mistake..........

*Like perps who keep changing their stories when confronted with evidence....