The approaching Honduran migrant caravan

[Ibrahim]

If you get to do it you have to let other people do it.

We used to do it where I live, and it didn't seem to work too well. Had a whole Truth and Reconciliation Commission about it and the testimonials were very sobering. Everyone seems to agree now that it was a horrible idea, except for a few fringe types here and there.



But of course nobody can make America do or not do anything. My concern is what would make half the population want to do it, and the other half get really mad about it for a couple weeks then mostly forget about it again.

I'm surprised about the level of animosity towards migrants globally. I understand opposition to migration, this is to be expected. There are arguments, even if I disagree with them, But preferring to see migrants interned or harmed or drowned instead of have them enter a given country is mystifying to me.

[Mr. Perfect]

I think you understand the issue quite well. There are nefarious and Noble arguments on both sides of it. For the left, the net is they are perfectly willing to let these helpless people die or be molested in their travels just to get votes in the future. This alone means the left is morally on the wrong side, and horribly so.

[Ibrahim]

I think you understand the issue quite well. There are nefarious and Noble arguments on both sides of it. For the left, the net is they are perfectly willing to let these helpless people die or be molested in their travels just to get votes in the future. This alone means the left is morally on the wrong side, and horribly so.

I've never really bought the argument that migrants are all going to be voting left wing, or voting at all. Nor are Americans in control of what happens in Mexico or Guatemala.

They way to cut to the center of the issue, morally, is to focus on the choices available to you in the situation you are presented with. Migrants show up at the border of your country (or any country) and you can decide how to treat them. Firing tear gas at them, or separating them for their children and keeping children in camps, or people them drown, these are by any measure cruel choices to make in that situation. Why take it to such extremes?

[Mr. Perfect]

I've never really bought the argument that migrants are all going to be voting left wing, or voting at all.

That's what the data shows, overwhelmingly. There isn't an argument.

Nor are Americans in control of what happens in Mexico or Guatemala.

We are supposed to be in control of our border.

They way to cut to the center of the issue, morally, is to focus on the choices available to you in the situation you are presented with. Migrants show up at the border of your country (or any country)

There is a difference between legal and illegal immigrants, I see what you did there.

and you can decide how to treat them.

Almost every nation on earth deports illegals as dispassionately as writing a parking ticket.

Firing tear gas at them, or separating them for their children and keeping children in camps, or people them drown, these are by any measure cruel choices to make in that situation. Why take it to such extremes?

That's how the obama administration handled it, it seems like if he got to do it you would have to let other people do it.

Enforcing the border is no different than enforcing other laws. Tear gas, imprisonment/incarceration of various forms and occasional lethal encounters is unavoidable in any nation.

[Mr. Perfect]

This is my argument to illegal aliens considering coming here.

9mKNfGiulTk

[Mr. Perfect]

This is also good.

LPjzfGChGlE

[Ibrahim]

I've never really bought the argument that migrants are all going to be voting left wing, or voting at all.

That's what the data shows, overwhelmingly. There isn't an argument.

I see immigrant support for the conservative party in Canada, including numerous MPs and MPPs. Certainly could be different in the US, feel free to link to some data.

Pint being there is no reason conservative principles can't appeal to immigrants, provided they aren't wedded to some racial agenda.

There is a difference between legal and illegal immigrants, I see what you did there.

They are neither when they arrive at the border.

Almost every nation on earth deports illegals as dispassionately as writing a parking ticket.

Precisely so, which makes the torments intentionally visited on immigrants by certain governments today, and the support for that treatment by a large segment of the population, so puzzling.

Firing tear gas at them, or separating them for their children and keeping children in camps, or people them drown, these are by any measure cruel choices to make in that situation. Why take it to such extremes?

That's how the obama administration handled it, it seems like if he got to do it you would have to let other people do it.

Indeed, the Trump administration has carried on all the cruelties and abuses of the Obama administration, which carried theirs from the Bush II administration, and so on. No doubt future administrations, regardless of party, will continue to be worse and worse.

Enforcing the border is no different than enforcing other laws. Tear gas, imprisonment/incarceration of various forms and occasional lethal encounters is unavoidable in any nation.

There is no need to tear gas a mob of migrants attempting to apply for asylum. There is certainly no need to separate families, and there is no need to warehouse children in for-profit internment camps where we know for a fact that some number of them are being sexually and physically abused, not to mention psychological damage. And unlike similar abuse they may have faced on their journey to the US, this abuse is on US soil, paid for by US taxpayers, and often for the personal profit of other Americans.

I'm just puzzled as to why people want this all to happen. Its completely avoidable.

[Mr. Perfect]

I see immigrant support for the conservative party in Canada, including numerous MPs and MPPs. Certainly could be different in the US, feel free to link to some data.

It's common knowledge here. America is not Canada.

Pint being there is no reason conservative principles can't appeal to immigrants, provided they aren't wedded to some racial agenda.

Conservative principles don't appeal to much of anyone outside of America, that's why I am totally opposed to any kind of immigration.

They are neither when they arrive at the border.

To be a legal immigrant you already have your immigration papers done before you get to the border. If you show up at the border and try to get across without the legal process you are an illegal immigrant.

Precisely so, which makes the torments intentionally visited on immigrants by certain governments today, and the support for that treatment by a large segment of the population, so puzzling.

There is a difference between legal and illegal immigration.

Legal vs illegal.

Indeed, the Trump administration has carried on all the cruelties and abuses of the Obama administration, which carried theirs from the Bush II administration, and so on. No doubt future administrations, regardless of party, will continue to be worse and worse.

Police use tear gas, separate families, incarcerate people and hold them in for profit prisons any time crimes are committed, in all nations.

Why should it be different for illegal aliens.

Right now French police are using tear gas, separating families and incarcerating people and you and others aren't saying anything.

Why is that.

There is no need to tear gas a mob of migrants attempting to apply for asylum.

How do you know people that were tear gassed were attempting to apply for asylum. Provide specific examples.

There is certainly no need to separate families,

Every time a criminal is arrested he is separated from his family. Why should it be different for illegal aliens.

and there is no need to warehouse children in for-profit internment camps

If their parents are arrested for a crime where would you put them? Are you currently taking in children of criminals for safekeeping in your private residence?

where we know for a fact that some number of them are being sexually and physically abused, not to mention psychological damage.

We know for fact that some number of children are sexually physically abused in a wide variety of situations all over the planet.

And unlike similar abuse they may have faced on their journey to the US, this abuse is on US soil, paid for by US taxpayers, and often for the personal profit of other Americans.

Yes. I understand foster systems can be terrible too. Even in Canada. How do you feel knowing that your tax dollars goes to Chester the Molester taking in foster kids in Canada. Have you thought about taking in foster children to protect them from such fate? Please answer this question.

I'm just puzzled as to why people want this all to happen. Its completely avoidable.

True. People should stop trying to come to this country illegally.

[Ibrahim]

That's what the data shows, overwhelmingly. There isn't an argument

I see immigrant support for the conservative party in Canada, including numerous MPs and MPPs. Certainly could be different in the US, feel free to link to some data.

It's common knowledge here.

Is this the "data" you were referring to?

Conservative principles don't appeal to much of anyone outside of America,

Interesting. Something to do with the blood? Or perhaps the soil?

They are neither when they arrive at the border.

To be a legal immigrant you already have your immigration papers done before you get to the border. If you show up at the border and try to get across without the legal process you are an illegal immigrant.

That's incorrect. You apply for asylum by presenting yourself at a port of entry and claiming asylum, you do not need to have papers in order in advance to apply for asylum.

Police use tear gas, separate families, incarcerate people and hold them in for profit prisons any time crimes are committed, in all nations.

I'm not aware of any other country currently operating for-profit internment camps for minor children. Australia's detention facility on Nauru is the closest example, though this doesn't enrich any Australian citizens personally, as the US child internment camps do.

Though perhaps this is a minor detail. Public child internment camps wouldn't be an improvement.

Right now French police are using tear gas, separating families and incarcerating people and you and others aren't saying anything.

Why is that.

Because this is the Honduran migrant thread. I could complain a great deal about the French police, I assure you.

There is no need to tear gas a mob of migrants attempting to apply for asylum.

How do you know people that were tear gassed were attempting to apply for asylum. Provide specific examples.

I thought you were saying such actions were not only justified but internationally commonplace. Now you seem to be denying that they occurred at all. Please specify which position you are and perhaps we can continue more productively.

We know for fact that some number of children are sexually physically abused in a wide variety of situations all over the planet.

True, but usually people are opposed to it.

And unlike similar abuse they may have faced on their journey to the US, this abuse is on US soil, paid for by US taxpayers, and often for the personal profit of other Americans.

Yes. I understand foster systems can be terrible too. Even in Canada. How do you feel knowing that your tax dollars goes to Chester the Molester taking in foster kids in Canada. Have you thought about taking in foster children to protect them from such fate? Please answer this question.

In Canada, for example, we are currently arresting illegal immigrants and housing them together with their families while their asylum claims are processed. The majority will be deported, but there will be no internment camps for children, no forced separation of families. I see no reason why the US government could not do the same.

it appears to me that a large segment of the population, perhaps yourself included, favors the more harmful policies undertaken or greatly expanded by the US government in recent years. This isn't surprising as such, I'm just intrigued by the mindset. Its one of those reoccurring puzzles of human history.

[Mr. Perfect]

Is this the "data" you were referring to?

Don't know.

Interesting. Something to do with the blood? Or perhaps the soil?

Something to do with a lack of socialism.

That's why we are the greatest country on earth, that is conservative principles. That's why everyone wants to come here. They have their socialist values in their home countries but want to leave those countries for some reason, but continue to vote for their socialist values once they get here.

I'm under no moral constitutional or legal obligation to allow people in here that I have to compete with at the ballot box.

That's incorrect. You apply for asylum by presenting yourself at a port of entry and claiming asylum, you do not need to have papers in order in advance to apply for asylum.

Until then you have no status.

I'm not aware of any other country currently operating for-profit internment camps for minor children.

I'm not aware of another country that has a large perpetual illegal immigration problem.

Australia's detention facility on Nauru is the closest example, though this doesn't enrich any Australian citizens personally, as the US child internment camps do.

Though perhaps this is a minor detail. Public child internment camps wouldn't be an improvement.

Ok.

Because this is the Honduran migrant thread. I could complain a great deal about the French police, I assure you.

But you never get around to it. You only ever complain about conservative white Christians, or their surrogates.

Why is that.

I thought you were saying such actions were not only justified but internationally commonplace. Now you seem to be denying that they occurred at all. Please specify which position you are and perhaps we can continue more productively.

1) Tear gas is a universal law enforcement tactic.
2) Show me someone applying for asylum that was tear gassed.

My opinion is irrelevant to the facts involved.

Show me a specific example of someone applying for asylum who was tear gassed, as you claimed.

True, but usually people are opposed to it.

Everyone I know of is opposed to it, but it's usually only called attention to when there is a political axe to grind.

In Canada, for example, we are currently arresting illegal immigrants and housing them together with their families while their asylum claims are processed. The majority will be deported, but there will be no internment camps for children, no forced separation of families. I see no reason why the US government could not do the same.

What are you doing for kids molested in your foster system.

Have you opened your home to them.

Why don't you care about them.

it appears to me that a large segment of the population, perhaps yourself included, favors the more harmful policies undertaken or greatly expanded by the US government in recent years. This isn't surprising as such, I'm just intrigued by the mindset. Its one of those reoccurring puzzles of human history.

You favor these same policies, if you get to practice them you have to let other people do it.

You favor

1) tear gas
2) incarceration
3) tolerance of child molestation in the Canadian foster system
4) separating criminals from families

If you get to do it you have to let other people do it.

Also, please don't avoid the question, how many foster children do you take care of and how many children of criminals have you let into your home.

[Ibrahim]

I'm under no moral constitutional or legal obligation to allow people in here that I have to compete with at the ballot box.

The question is why you want to see them harmed.

I'm not aware of any other country currently operating for-profit internment camps for minor children.

I'm not aware of another country that has a large perpetual illegal immigration problem.

Are you sure you don't want to take another pass at this one?

Because this is the Honduran migrant thread. I could complain a great deal about the French police, I assure you.

But you never get around to it. You only ever complain about conservative white Christians, or their surrogates.

Why is that.

Are suggesting here that only "conservative white Christians" support forced family separation, child internment, etc?

My opinion is irrelevant to the facts involved.

I'm only asking for your opinion.

In Canada, for example, we are currently arresting illegal immigrants and housing them together with their families while their asylum claims are processed. The majority will be deported, but there will be no internment camps for children, no forced separation of families. I see no reason why the US government could not do the same.

What are you doing for kids molested in your foster system.

This thread is about the migrant caravan. I was contrasting two different methods of dealing with asylum seekers and asking why you prefer the method in which minor children are separated from their families and placed in for-profit internment camps.

I was also asking about whether or not you approve of using tear gas on them at the border, but you appear to deny this happened, while also claiming it is commonplace internationally and therefore justified.

[noddy]

I'm not aware of any other country currently operating for-profit internment camps for minor children.

.

Australia sort of does - holding camps in New Guinea to bypass international law on standards required once they put a foot down in a western country.

Luckily for Australia their are no standards when you go to a non western country, any crazy thing can happen and nobody expects much different.

Canada is kind of in the sweet spot, frozen hellhole on 3 borders and american on the 4th, able to pick and choose exactly who arrives and who doesnt.

[Mr. Perfect]

I've distilled Ibrahims propaganda to these main points.

1) Americans hate hispanic MIGRANTS
2) The caravan are all ASYLUM SEEKERS
3) The USG are currently tear gassing LEGAL IMMIGRANTS as seeking asylum is legal
4) Are you objections to this over blood and soil
5) Do you want to harm these people? Why do you support the sexual molestation of the children being paid for by your taxes? The United States is the only country in the world that separates legal immigrants from their families and puts them in cages? Why do you hate them so much, as a conservative white Christian?

Let's see your rebuttals. Does Tucker Carlson have an email chain with talking points ready to go?

This should be fun to watch.

[Ibrahim]

Just to clarify:

1) Americans hate hispanic MIGRANTS

Only some Americans.

4) Are you objections to this over blood and soil

I asked you if your claim that only Americans can truly be conservative is related to blood and/or soil.

The United States is the only country in the world that separates [...] immigrants from their families and puts them in cages?

We agreed that Australia does this too, but only the US does it for profit.

Why do you hate them so much, as a conservative white Christian?

You brought up conservative white Christians in relation to this subject, not me. Why did you do that anyway?

[Mr. Perfect]

Mod note. The SFRs.

[Simple Minded]

Mr. P,

I will torture you no more. Consider this your Christmas present.

Don't know for sure, but I suspect Ibrahim and I have yuge common ground (no pun intended) on this issue. I'd bet a few weeks pay that we both currently have the same number of illegal, unvetted immigrants sharing our bedrooms. Our monthly expenditure for their food, clothing, and medicine are probably close to identical.

Probably the same for 99+% of the residents of America, Canada, Hollywood, and DC. Joy Behar, and Chuck Schumer should be ashamed to be as racist, bigoted, xenophobic, and as hateful as me!!!!


Now if Washington DC ever gets past special interest bickering,
check out: https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2018 ... n-borders/
and decides to adopt Canadian policies towards border security, becoming a citizen, enforce them as consistently as Canada does, I'm all for it.

Which begs the question, where are the politicians who are crying out "Let's implement Canada's or Switzerland's laws! They don't have this problem1"

I hope this makes you feel better.

Welcome back Ibrahim!

[Parodite]

Maybe a freakishly small fraction of people literally don't want any borders. One happy family living on one planet earth without nation states. This utopia so far has only caused mass suffering and failures.

Most people want porous borders but with controlled immigration-emigration as an outcome of a democratic process. Illegal immigration is never a good thing but there also is the utopia of forcing it down to level zero.

[Ibrahim]

Maybe a freakishly small fraction of people literally don't want any borders. One happy family living on one planet earth without nation states. This utopia so far has only caused mass suffering and failures.

Most people want porous borders but with controlled immigration-emigration as an outcome of a democratic process. Illegal immigration is never a good thing but there also is the utopia of forcing it down to level zero.

Reasonable to point out that totally open borders and totally closed and controlled borders are utopian (or dytopian) impossibilities.

My point here was less about what I consider to be a desirable immigration policy, and more about the treatment of migrants, refugees, and immigrants legal and illegal. The categories of people we are willing to dehumanize is growing steadily, and the cruelties we are willing to inflict on the people we have dehumanized seems to be without limit.
Its not a good trend.

[Parodite]

Maybe a freakishly small fraction of people literally don't want any borders. One happy family living on one planet earth without nation states. This utopia so far has only caused mass suffering and failures.

Most people want porous borders but with controlled immigration-emigration as an outcome of a democratic process. Illegal immigration is never a good thing but there also is the utopia of forcing it down to level zero.

Reasonable to point out that totally open borders and totally closed and controlled borders are utopian (or dytopian) impossibilities.

My point here was less about what I consider to be a desirable immigration policy, and more about the treatment of migrants, refugees, and immigrants legal and illegal. The categories of people we are willing to dehumanize is growing steadily, and the cruelties we are willing to inflict on the people we have dehumanized seems to be without limit.
Its not a good trend.

The seed of dehumanization is already in the categorizing. Sometimes this seed is nurtured into full blown us-vs-them ideologies, sometimes the dehumanization slips in not as an intended consequence but because any x-number of people that show up in statistics don't speak to people the way one individual can speak to/appeal to another individual. Typically politicians making decisions that effect many people live in an abstract world of non-human data points.

[Doc]

Maybe a freakishly small fraction of people literally don't want any borders. One happy family living on one planet earth without nation states. This utopia so far has only caused mass suffering and failures.

Most people want porous borders but with controlled immigration-emigration as an outcome of a democratic process. Illegal immigration is never a good thing but there also is the utopia of forcing it down to level zero.

Reasonable to point out that totally open borders and totally closed and controlled borders are utopian (or dytopian) impossibilities.

My point here was less about what I consider to be a desirable immigration policy, and more about the treatment of migrants, refugees, and immigrants legal and illegal. The categories of people we are willing to dehumanize is growing steadily, and the cruelties we are willing to inflict on the people we have dehumanized seems to be without limit.
Its not a good trend.

The seed of dehumanization is already in the categorizing. Sometimes this seed is nurtured into full blown us-vs-them ideologies, sometimes the dehumanization slips in not as an intended consequence but because any x-number of people that show up in statistics don't speak to people the way one individual can speak to/appeal to another individual. Typically politicians making decisions that effect many people live in an abstract world of non-human data points.

Human Data point:

https://dailycaller.com/2018/12/12/hond ... g-suspect/

Suspect In 1987 Bombing That Targeted American Soldiers Leads Migrant Group Demanding Entry Into US

[crashtech66]

Re the above linked article, it's pretty nervy to knock on the gate and demand 50K a head, props for sheer audacity.

Link to original source:
https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/ne ... story.html

[Ibrahim]

Maybe a freakishly small fraction of people literally don't want any borders. One happy family living on one planet earth without nation states. This utopia so far has only caused mass suffering and failures.

Most people want porous borders but with controlled immigration-emigration as an outcome of a democratic process. Illegal immigration is never a good thing but there also is the utopia of forcing it down to level zero.

Reasonable to point out that totally open borders and totally closed and controlled borders are utopian (or dytopian) impossibilities.

My point here was less about what I consider to be a desirable immigration policy, and more about the treatment of migrants, refugees, and immigrants legal and illegal. The categories of people we are willing to dehumanize is growing steadily, and the cruelties we are willing to inflict on the people we have dehumanized seems to be without limit.
Its not a good trend.

The seed of dehumanization is already in the categorizing. Sometimes this seed is nurtured into full blown us-vs-them ideologies, sometimes the dehumanization slips in not as an intended consequence but because any x-number of people that show up in statistics don't speak to people the way one individual can speak to/appeal to another individual. Typically politicians making decisions that effect many people live in an abstract world of non-human data points.

Its all about finding an excuse, as in the Daily Caller article Doc linked above. Allegedly some bad guy was in a caravan, therefore we can do anything to anybody in a caravan, forever. Its right to gas them, right to keep their children in internment camps, because certainly some number of them will be criminals of some time, and maybe a few will be high profile supercriminals.

There's been major hostility towards Mexican and Central American immigrants in certain political quarters for as long as I can remember, but each tangible incident of an individual criminal only elevated the level of real-world cruelty that people were willing to accept.

[Simple Minded]

The seed of dehumanization is already in the categorizing. Sometimes this seed is nurtured into full blown us-vs-them ideologies, sometimes the dehumanization slips in not as an intended consequence but because any x-number of people that show up in statistics don't speak to people the way one individual can speak to/appeal to another individual. Typically politicians making decisions that effect many people live in an abstract world of non-human data points.

Excellent summary Parodite. The abstract, theoretical, idealistic "we" of "someday," vs. the concrete, practical, realistic "me" of "right now." Or as we said back in a simpler time, "talk is cheap."

Rich Hollywood Star or Politician: "I am appealing to your humanity. We as a people should be doing more!!!!"
Joe Average: "Cut the we lingo crap, what are you doing today? You could easily house 100 refugees right now in the houses you currently own."
Rich Hollywood Star or Politician: " "

Everyone wants to be admired for their good intentions and high moral standards, few are opening up their houses and their checkbooks.

The humanitarian equivalent of NIMBY. "Electricity makes life better, especially for the poor. You ain't building that power plant anywhere near my house."

[noddy]

to play contrarian - this whole paradigm of every human being super precious is mostly a sheltered, inner city, middle class thing and even they are having second thoughts in light of 10 billion humans and eco system coillapse - see the latest marvel movie for the details.

back to this topic, we have never cared about our indigenous ghettos, nor have we ever cared about our white trash ghettos, why would anyone expect any different for other peoples ghettos.

if you want a small village of people who treat each other with dignity, you need a small village.. that protects its borders to keep those other bastards out

[Doc]

Maybe a freakishly small fraction of people literally don't want any borders. One happy family living on one planet earth without nation states. This utopia so far has only caused mass suffering and failures.

Most people want porous borders but with controlled immigration-emigration as an outcome of a democratic process. Illegal immigration is never a good thing but there also is the utopia of forcing it down to level zero.

Reasonable to point out that totally open borders and totally closed and controlled borders are utopian (or dytopian) impossibilities.

My point here was less about what I consider to be a desirable immigration policy, and more about the treatment of migrants, refugees, and immigrants legal and illegal. The categories of people we are willing to dehumanize is growing steadily, and the cruelties we are willing to inflict on the people we have dehumanized seems to be without limit.
Its not a good trend.

The seed of dehumanization is already in the categorizing. Sometimes this seed is nurtured into full blown us-vs-them ideologies, sometimes the dehumanization slips in not as an intended consequence but because any x-number of people that show up in statistics don't speak to people the way one individual can speak to/appeal to another individual. Typically politicians making decisions that effect many people live in an abstract world of non-human data points.

Its all about finding an excuse, as in the Daily Caller article Doc linked above. Allegedly some bad guy was in a caravan, therefore we can do anything to anybody in a caravan, forever. Its right to gas them, right to keep their children in internment camps, because certainly some number of them will be criminals of some time, and maybe a few will be high profile supercriminals.

There's been major hostility towards Mexican and Central American immigrants in certain political quarters for as long as I can remember, but each tangible incident of an individual criminal only elevated the level of real-world cruelty that people were willing to accept.

Yes Ibrahim we can do something to everyone in the caravan because of the suspected terrorist leading it. We can require they legally enter the US THROUGH legal ports of entry, take their names as they do, and vet them properly for criminal backgrounds. Check to make sure any children that are with them are really their children. So I guess I am sooooo cruel for saying that, right?. And I am sure bigots can use that to say I am cruel for saying that.

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