Obama the Executioner

Mr. Perfect
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Obama the Executioner

Post by Mr. Perfect »

He was always going to be this Tinker, we both knew it back when you promoted him so vigorously.

Being suspected of terror affiliation is now punishable by execution in the street. Not after arrest and due process, just execution. And there isn't even a war on terror. Brought to you by Democrats everywhere. Congratulations Zack Morris, another Culture War victory. Another great triumph for leftism.

"10,000 ninjas". Somewhere Wolfowitz, Cheney, and Perle are toasting themselves and smiling broadly.

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/20 ... icans?lite
A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.

“The condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future,” the memo states.

Instead, it says, an “informed, high-level” official of the U.S. government may determine that the targeted American has been “recently” involved in “activities” posing a threat of a violent attack and “there is no evidence suggesting that he has renounced or abandoned such activities.” The memo does not define “recently” or “activities.”

“This is a chilling document,” said Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the ACLU, which is suing to obtain administration memos about the targeted killing of Americans. “Basically, it argues that the government has the right to carry out the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen. … It recognizes some limits on the authority it sets out, but the limits are elastic and vaguely defined, and it’s easy to see how they could be manipulated.”

In particular, Jaffer said, the memo “redefines the word imminence in a way that deprives the word of its ordinary meaning.”
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Doc
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Mr. Perfect wrote:He was always going to be this Tinker, we both knew it back when you promoted him so vigorously.

Being suspected of terror affiliation is now punishable by execution in the street. Not after arrest and due process, just execution. And there isn't even a war on terror. Brought to you by Democrats everywhere. Congratulations Zack Morris, another Culture War victory. Another great triumph for leftism.

"10,000 ninjas". Somewhere Wolfowitz, Cheney, and Perle are toasting themselves and smiling broadly.

http://openchannel.nbcnews.com/_news/20 ... icans?lite
A confidential Justice Department memo concludes that the U.S. government can order the killing of American citizens if they are believed to be “senior operational leaders” of al-Qaida or “an associated force” -- even if there is no intelligence indicating they are engaged in an active plot to attack the U.S.

“The condition that an operational leader present an ‘imminent’ threat of violent attack against the United States does not require the United States to have clear evidence that a specific attack on U.S. persons and interests will take place in the immediate future,” the memo states.

Instead, it says, an “informed, high-level” official of the U.S. government may determine that the targeted American has been “recently” involved in “activities” posing a threat of a violent attack and “there is no evidence suggesting that he has renounced or abandoned such activities.” The memo does not define “recently” or “activities.”

“This is a chilling document,” said Jameel Jaffer, deputy legal director of the ACLU, which is suing to obtain administration memos about the targeted killing of Americans. “Basically, it argues that the government has the right to carry out the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen. … It recognizes some limits on the authority it sets out, but the limits are elastic and vaguely defined, and it’s easy to see how they could be manipulated.”

In particular, Jaffer said, the memo “redefines the word imminence in a way that deprives the word of its ordinary meaning.”
So had the Obama Admin been around in the 1930's Americans that joined the Abraham Lincoln brigade in the Spanish civil war would be subject to extra judicial execution. Go figure.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Enki
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Re: Obama the Executioner

Post by Enki »

Yea, this was the obvious trajectory regardless of who was President. But genuflect Obama.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Enki wrote:Yea, this was the obvious trajectory regardless of who was President. But frick Obama.
I disagree. Bush had rules of engagement that were based on the Geneva conventions. Illegal combatants and what not. IE What his admin did with an individual was based on where they were caught and where they were from. Which was the "trajectory" he inherited from the Clinton Admin. But since Obama shot off his mouth about Gitmo and holding POWs while the hostiles are still going on then yes it was a self imposed trajectory to go from Gitmo to extra judicial killing.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Re: Obama the Executioner

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So you feel that Obama = Hitler ?
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Enki wrote:Yea, this was the obvious trajectory regardless of who was President.
Yeah not really.
But frick Obama.
Shoulda thought of that at the beginning.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

Post by Mr. Perfect »

You can't retain what you never had.
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Hoosiernorm
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Re: Obama the Executioner

Post by Hoosiernorm »

Does anyone remember the public outcry about waterboarding? I thought it was the end of the country, a few years later it's ok to kill children and American citizens living abroad.


Yeah the silence is deafening.
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Mr. Perfect
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Hoosiernorm wrote:Does anyone remember the public outcry about waterboarding?
For starters.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Lets' keep in mind that the left will never do anything to limit Obama. If Obama decided to seize the funds of all GOP donors the press may not even cover it. If Obama ordered the slaughter of a Boy Scout camp they wouldn't say a word. If Obama wanted to conduct military exercises over American cities it would be a blog post here or there then nothing. If Obama wanted to depose a Republican State Capitol with Military Force the press would cheer whatever trumped up charges Obama would toss out.

This man is an Executioner, and is just beginning to stretch his legs. Take the necessary precautions.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Mr. Perfect wrote:Lets' keep in mind that the left will never do anything to limit Obama. If Obama decided to seize the funds of all GOP donors the press may not even cover it. If Obama ordered the slaughter of a Boy Scout camp they wouldn't say a word. If Obama wanted to conduct military exercises over American cities it would be a blog post here or there then nothing. If Obama wanted to depose a Republican State Capitol with Military Force the press would cheer whatever trumped up charges Obama would toss out.

This man is an Executioner, and is just beginning to stretch his legs. Take the necessary precautions.
"Its all Bush's fault !!!"
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Enki
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Re: Obama the Executioner

Post by Enki »

Hoosiernorm wrote:Does anyone remember the public outcry about waterboarding? I thought it was the end of the country, a few years later it's ok to kill children and American citizens living abroad.


Yeah the silence is deafening.
I live in an echo chamber of people who are against it.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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When we see leftists in the street over it then we'll take that seriously. Until then just more moral and intellectual bankruptcy from the left as we slide toward left wing totalitarianism.

The train cars are coming for people like me Tinker. Do you see them coming? Zack Morris will be working the doors. I wonder where you will be in the process, I can't see it yet.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Hoosiernorm wrote:Yeah the silence is deafening.
One could say silent like a mouse peeing on cotton.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Enki wrote:Yea, this was the obvious trajectory regardless of who was President. But frick Obama.
I disagree. Bush had rules of engagement that were based on the Geneva conventions.
That is blatantly false. The Bush II administration instituted and attempted to justify the widespread use of torture, in clear violation of the Geneva conventions, and US civilian and military law. Obama is complicit in that this still continues to some degree, but it was instituted by/under Bush II.

I've seen people argue that this was all justified and there is nothing wrong with detention and torture of suspected terrorists, but I've never seen anybody try to outright deny it after ten years of publications and documentaries detailing it.

There was also extrajudicial killing under Bush II, but not of US citizens. They certainly killed plenty of people they suspected of being involved with terrorism or the Taliban. The Obama administration is notable in their expanded use of one specific tool for killing people (drones) and for killing of several US citizens (famously al-Awlaki and his teenage son).

Both administrations also falsely inflate the number of legitimate targets and decrease civilian casualties by asserting, absent evidence, that the target indeed needed to be killed, and by calling all "military age males" nearby "militants," regardless of any specific knowledge of who they are.


It significant that nobody even pretends the United States occupies any kind of moral high ground anymore. That era has passed, and it passed sometime around 2003.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Ibrahim wrote: That is blatantly false. The Bush II administration instituted and attempted to justify the widespread use of torture, in clear violation of the Geneva conventions, and US civilian and military law. Obama is complicit in that this still continues to some degree, but it was instituted by/under Bush II.
Laughably false.

The Clinton torture program was far worse, the Bush program dramatically ramped it down.
I've seen people argue that this was all justified and there is nothing wrong with detention and torture of suspected terrorists, but I've never seen anybody try to outright deny it after ten years of publications and documentaries detailing it.

There was also extrajudicial killing under Bush II, but not of US citizens. They certainly killed plenty of people they suspected of being involved with terrorism or the Taliban.
Much like Clinton.
It significant that nobody even pretends the United States occupies any kind of moral high ground anymore. That era has passed, and it passed sometime around 2003.
It'd be earlier than that. At some point during the Clinton torture program.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

Post by Ibrahim »

Enki wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:Does anyone remember the public outcry about waterboarding? I thought it was the end of the country, a few years later it's ok to kill children and American citizens living abroad.


Yeah the silence is deafening.
I live in an echo chamber of people who are against it.

I remember a constant shriek from both American liberals (plus a few conservatives) and non-Americans about the crimes and abuses of the Bush II administration. It stopped abruptly in 2008, when Obama was elected. When it became evident that he wasn't going to change suit it started up again, but in smaller numbers. There are certainly many Americans supporting the Democratic party that will accept/defend it because its "their" guy doing it.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Hoosiernorm wrote:Yeah the silence is deafening.
One could say silent like a mouse peeing on cotton.

Efforts are underway to legalize weed. While this will have a benefit in terms of old concerns like the WoD, it will make no mistake be used as a new source of pacification. Play with your electronic toys, get high and stay there; meanwhile the security apparatus does, well, whatever they damn well want.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Ibrahim wrote: I remember a constant shriek from both American liberals (plus a few conservatives) and non-Americans about the crimes and abuses of the Bush II administration. It stopped abruptly in 2008, when Obama was elected. When it became evident that he wasn't going to change suit it started up again, but in smaller numbers. There are certainly many Americans supporting the Democratic party that will accept/defend it because its "their" guy doing it.
Quite as a mouse peeing on cotton.

In fact Ibs liked it just fine when they were killing who he wanted killed.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Image
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Is that racist?
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Mr. Perfect wrote:Is that racist?
No, but it's not nearly as clever and funny as it could have been.

The hammer and sickle are overkill - too heavy handed - reminiscent of turgid anti-American Soviet and Maoist attempts at humourous propaganda.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Clinton was no saint when it came to foreign policy but the Clinton 'torture' program was not used to gather intelligence -- the intent was not to ship people to Egypt to be tortured for intelligence purposes but rather to disrupt existing cells planning attacks. There was only really one incident of this: the capture of a group of Egyptians (IIRC) in the Balkans, who were then sent back to Egypt. A law was passed in the late 90's (96?) making rendition to human rights abusers illegal and it was the Bush administration that then launched a vigorous effort to circumvent (or rather, outright ignore) this and other provisions against torture.

The most interesting thing here is that Mr. P supports this stuff. He tries to accuse opponents of Bush of hypocrisy for not equating the smaller-scale rendition program (which consequently never received as much attention) with Bush's massively expanded torture/secret prison/indefinite detention program (which was so large that it established an entirely new long-term precedent). It may indeed be a case of hypocrisy but apparently, Mr. P was for it then and for it now.
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Re: Obama the Executioner

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Wrong yet again Zack Morris, wrong so often and so profoundly. Clinton era intelligence officials marveled at how fast they got intelligence from torture. They really liked it. This is all well known and in the public domain.

I'm for the Milo Doctrine, which requires no torture and settles the issue. Have been for the Milo Doctrine for years and years an years, yet can't bring around neocons like Zack Morris or say Tinker.
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