Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

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Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

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http://www.salon.com/2006/03/04/bruinius/

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Amazing that the names used haven't changed much
Progressive genocide
Less than 100 years ago, America's finest minds were convinced the nation was threatened by sexually insatiable female morons. A new history of the eugenics movement sheds light on a bizarre chapter in U.S. history.
Farhad Manjoo

Progressive genocide

Among the many concerns that captivated the American educated class early in the last century, few were thought to be as urgent as the threat posed to the nation by sexually insatiable female morons. This may sound silly; today, our fear of morons is rather abstract, and on a national scale confined mostly to whomever is the current resident of the White House. But a hundred years ago, morons were public enemy No. 1, seen as a drain on the nation’s resources and a grave danger to its stability. The situation was most keenly appreciated by progressives — scientists, businessmen, feminists and liberal politicians — who, as even the best of us sometimes do, feared that within a short time, the nation would be overrun by simpletons.

But how do you solve a problem like the moron? These poor people, for one, weren’t easy to spot. “Feeblemindedness,” the medical condition from which morons suffered, was chiefly manifested by subtle, difficult-to-diagnose symptoms, such as poor judgment and a susceptibility to deviance. The only way to tell if you were dealing with a certifiable moron — an actual medical term — was by administering an intelligence questionnaire (an early version of the IQ test), which scientists believed could accurately assess a patient’s “mental age.” Unlike idiots and imbeciles (who were characterized by significant, obvious mental defects), morons, who were grown-ups who showed mental ages that were far below their physical maturity, might do well in school, they might hold down jobs, and they might even manage to raise children — but all this was to be thought of as a ruse, because sooner or later, they’d go astray.

As the journalist Harry Bruinius explains in “Better for All the World: The Secret History of Forced Sterilization and America’s Quest for Racial Purity,” his comprehensive new history of the American eugenics movement, the problem wasn’t just that morons were given to crime and poverty; because feeblemindedness was a genetic condition passed on from one generation to the next, their children, and their children’s children, and on and on, were similarly suspect as well. Of particular concern were the afflicted women, in whom scientists had found the symptoms of feeblemindedness more pronounced. Female morons gave in to their sexual urges more quickly than feebleminded men, and they sometimes deceived normal men into consorting with them; in addition, they were “hyper-fecund,” as doctors termed their apparent tendency to become pregnant easily. Put this all together, as many smart Americans did, and you had a big problem on your hands: an extremely fertile, extremely needy, apparently permanent underclass.
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It’s lately become fashionable to reckon with growing ignorance among one’s countrymen by threatening to emigrate to Canada; for American intellectuals of an earlier generation the more obvious solution was forced sterilization. At the dawn of the medical age, when scientists were just beginning to discover both the evolutionary basis to biology as well as painless, “humane” procedures to render humans infertile, it was the nation’s rationalists who hit upon the idea of sterilization as a way to solve the problem of multiplying morons, Bruinius explains; the main opposition to the horrific idea came from religious fundamentalists.

Progressives saw sterilization as having natural advantages over traditional methods of helping the poor, such as charity. Sterilization was “scientific” — its rationale could be found in the writings of Charles Darwin’s cousin Francis Galton, the father of eugenics, who mused that superior people, like superior crops and farm animals, were the product of good breeding. The term “gene” had not yet been coined — among the surprises in Bruinius’ book is that the science and the word “genetics” were born of the pseudoscience eugenics, and not vice versa — but any well-read person could understand that if you wanted to rid the world of inferior people, you ought to stop them from passing on their characteristics to future generations. Whereas charity only prolonged and deepened the problem of poverty by allowing the “unfit” among us to survive and procreate, sterilization presented what you might call a permanent, final solution. Give a man a fish and he eats for one day; cut his mother’s fallopian tubes and you can be pretty certain not to need any fish, or fishing lessons, in the first place.

Much of the story of the American eugenics movement has been forgotten, and this is the main thing Bruinius’ book has going for it. Though it’s at times discursive and repetitive, tends toward the melodramatic, and is probably too long by half, “Better for All the World” tells a story few Americans know or have considered much. Bruinius says the history is “secret,” but there isn’t much deliberate obfuscation in the record — indeed what’s most surprising about our eugenics past is how public, proud and prominent its proponents were about their aims. There’s perhaps a better explanation for why we’ve forgotten the story: Eugenics in America can be seen as something like a tragedy deferred, a terrible path that we veered toward, but, like the presidency of Charles Lindbergh, wisely averted at the last minute. To the extent that we remember the eugenicists now, we think of them as faddists; like phrenologists before them or, in a later generation, dot-com evangelizers, eugenicists caught some attention by peddling a simple and attractive solution to many of the world’s ills, and while they may have caused a good deal of trouble in the process, they were eventually outwitted. Eugenics in America is a historical blemish, not an open wound, and it’s the open wounds one tends to remember. Another way of saying this is, at least we’re not Germany.

And yet in Bruinius’ telling American eugenicists don’t look nearly so inconsequential. Importantly, Bruinius points out, we were the first to pick up the eugenics bug. Galton, a Brit, provided the intellectual basis for eugenics, but Americans, who fancied themselves a chosen people and whose blood has always run hot on matters of utopia, actually implemented the plans. In 1907, Indiana passed “the first sterilization law in human history,” Bruinius writes, and “in the next two decades, the United States became the pioneer in state-sanctioned programs to rid society of the ‘unfit.’” At least 30 states enacted similar laws, and sterilization became routine. California, which ran the most aggressive program, sterilized more than 2,500 people in a 10-year period; in all, more than 65,000 Americans were rendered infertile.

More astonishing than the number of people sterilized is the long list of famous Americans who supported and sanctioned such programs. Bruinius takes his book’s title from the 1927 Supreme Court majority opinion in Buck v. Bell, which ruled that the Constitution did not prohibit Virginia — and, consequently, other states — from sterilizing its citizens. The opinion, by Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., is Bruinius’ trump card, and he repeats bits of it often; if you have trouble believing that anyone with half a brain might have bought the arguments of eugenicists, the opinion settles the matter.

“We have seen more than once that the public welfare may call upon the best citizens for their lives,” Holmes wrote. “It would be strange if it could not call upon those who already sap the strength of the State for these lesser sacrifices [ i.e., forced sterilization], often not felt to be such by those concerned, in order to prevent our being swamped with incompetence. It is better for all the world, if instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime, or to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind.” Referring to Carrie Buck, the plaintiff in the case whom the state intended to sterilize, and whose mother and daughter both had been suspected by doctors to be afflicted with feeblemindedness, Holmes added: “Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” (As Bruinius points out, Holmes had this label wrong; Buck and her kin had been diagnosed as morons, not imbeciles.)

Others who supported eugenics included Victoria Woodhull, the suffragist and progressive activist who was the first woman to run for president; the inventor Alexander Graham Bell (who later moved away from the movement); foundations connected with the Carnegies, the Harrimans and the Rockefellers, which donated large sums toward eugenics research; professors at leading universities, including Harvard, Yale, Stanford and Johns Hopkins; and editorialists of the New York Times. Bruinius also fingers Margaret Sanger, the birth control advocate who founded the American Birth Control League, the predecessor to Planned Parenthood, as having sympathy for eugenics; though Sanger did say many suspect things, her closeness to the movement has been questioned and rejected by her supporters. Then there was Theodore Roosevelt, who, in a letter to the eugenicist Charles Davenport in 1913, hoped that “Someday we will realize that the prime duty, the inescapable duty, of the good citizen of the right type is to leave his or her blood behind him in the world; and that we have no business to permit the perpetuation of citizens of the wrong type.”

It’s not exactly clear what Roosevelt meant by “citizens of the wrong type,” but it should be noted that as eugenics thinking matured, many supporters began to see the delineations between people of the right and wrong type as extending beyond just mental categories. Leading eugenicists argued that science proved that non-whites were genetically inferior to whites, that certain kinds of Europeans were better than other kinds, and that you should never trust a Jew. The eugenicists’ claims were touted by opportunistic politicians, who used the scientific findings to pass restrictive immigration laws in the U.S.

The American enthusiasm for purifying the populace did not go unnoticed beyond our borders. After the Supreme Court approved the process, “the American technique of social engineering became the model for laws in Canada, Denmark, Finland, France, and Sweden,” Bruinius writes. And one more: Hitler’s Germany, where the sterilization laws were consciously modeled on and supported by the American efforts.

But why didn’t we descend deeper into hell — why, in the end, did sanity prevail in America, where it did not in Germany? To be sure, there’s an obvious answer to this question: Adolf Hitler. Bruinius underlines the ways the Germans used American laws as support for their eugenics programs, but you can be sure that had America never approached eugenics, Hitler would not have been a sterling democrat; Hitler, being Hitler, didn’t need an American Supreme Court decision to send him down the path toward madness. Yet aside from that clear difference, there may be a compelling reason why America didn’t fully embrace the eugenicists’ aims: After the sin of slavery, we could not stand for a state-sanctioned biological aristocracy.

The author suggests, probably correctly, that it was Americans’ tendency to reach for perfection that swayed us toward eugenics in the first place; this is the land of manifest destiny, after all, and it certainly was not manifest that our destiny be that morons run about all over the land. Moreover, it’s undeniable that eugenics did enjoy a certain logical appeal as a social tool. For people who were embracing science and technology in all corners of their lives — this was the age of industrialization — sterilization had the benefit of being both novel and efficient. You didn’t have to be evil to support eugenics; you only had to have a fuzzy idea of how biological sciences worked (and a fuzzy idea is all scientists had at that time), as well as a general reformist spirit. That’s why progressives, rather than religious fundamentalists, were so hip to eugenics. The whole thing seemed like a can’t-miss idea.

Yet there would also seem to be something progressive about the reasons the United States moved away from eugenics. First, the science was weak, and the weaknesses eventually did in the eugenicists’ ideas. In 1922, Walter Lippmann wrote a series of influential articles for the New Republic questioning the eugenicists’ claim to accurately measure intelligence. Lippmann pointed out the obvious problem with calling people morons, imbeciles, idiots or whatever else: “Intelligence is not an abstraction like length and width; it is an exceedingly complicated notion which nobody has as yet succeeded in defining.” By the 1930s, Bruinius writes, scientists were beginning to see this clearly; in an article in Psychological Review, Carl Campbell Brigham, a psychologist at Princeton who’d once supported the eugenicists’ ideas, argued that intelligence could not, in fact, be measured easily. Eventually such ideas as categorizing people according to laughably flawed mental tests, and supposing that something so complex as one’s future offspring’s mental capacity could be deduced from such tests, were discredited by people who favored science over ideology (people who favored the study of genetics over eugenics, of actual evolution over social Darwinism).

More important than the science, though, was Americans’ long-held opposition to an aristocracy. The sensibility that led toward the widespread adoption of sterilization is, unfortunately, recognizable; who among us hasn’t ever suspected, however fleetingly, that the world would be better off if there were only people like us around? But we also recognize these feelings as fundamentally elitist — and even though our history is pocked with elitism enshrined into law (slavery, segregation), the sort of aristocracy envisioned by the eugenicists, in which 10 percent or more of the population would be marked for sterilization, was too much for American democracy to abide.

Some of the most compelling passages in Bruinius’ history involves the eugenicists’ efforts to convince the nation that loads and loads of people should be sterilized. Yet instead of convincing people, the eugenicists ended up scaring folks. “We are … building up an aristocracy of lunatics, idiots, paupers, and criminals,” Dr. John Kellogg, the physician and cereal magnate, declared in a speech in San Francisco in 1915. Kellogg called for every American to undergo an annual health inspection, and for the results to be stored in a national registry that would be used to determine whether people could marry or should be sterilized. When the press reported Kellogg’s speech and outlined the scope of the eugenicists’ aims — “14 Million to Be Sterilized,” the Hearst papers screamed in headlines — Americans were aghast. The eugenicists mounted an aggressive propaganda campaign — which included outlandish “fitter family” contests at state fairs — but the American public wouldn’t buy it. Their “audacious rhetoric,” Bruinius writes of the eugenicists, “may have been starting to hurt the eugenics cause with its very un-American call for a new aristocracy … The leitmotif of statistics was starting to lose its rhetorical power in a democratic land, failing to engage ordinary folk and convince them of the need for better breeding.”

Oliver Wendell Holmes overlooked individual rights in his decision, and the government eventually forced many thousands of people into sterilization. But we did not sterilize millions, and the programs proved unpopular and quickly withered away. One has to guess that this was because forced sterilization seemed anathema to the nation at large, especially at a time when the country was beginning to move toward granting rights to more of its citizens (women, blacks) rather than fewer.

That we sterilized thousands rather than millions may seem an academic distinction — it’s bad enough, isn’t it, that the nation sterilized anyone? — but the difference is important. Bruinius concludes his book by wondering whether modern scientific advances in genetics and bioengineering could usher in “a tipping point in which genocide — cultural, ethnic, or genetic — can seem a rational and desirable goal?” Anything can happen, of course, and it would be naive to say that the United States is immune to committing genocide, either at home or abroad. But genocide is a crime of numbers, a horror of multitudes — of millions, not thousands. There is little to be proud of, and much to learn from, our nation’s rendezvous with eugenic genocide. But one can take solace that it was only a rendezvous, and not a full embrace.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Ibrahim »

This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
This was Genocide that inspired the Nazi death camps. Eugenics was popular with progressives until the end of WWII opened up those death camps for the world to see the end result. But in some places the left wing solution of eugenics lived on.

This is footage of a 1968 short about Pennhurst state asylum which was created by progressives

YG33HvIKOgQ

And no I don't think this goes with the racism thread It is similar in some ways but not the same
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
This was Genocide that inspired the Nazi death camps. Eugenics was popular with progressives until the end of WWII opened up those death camps for the world to see the end result. But in some places the left wing solution of eugenics lived on.
Nazi German concentration camps were inspired by British camps from the Boer war, and the idea of genocide is ancient, only the pseudo-scientific justification of genetics is new.

I think you're in for a real challenge if you're trying to pin the idea of eugenics on "left wing" or "progressive" politics. The Nazis are the most famous right wing example in history, Imperial Japan is another, and forced sterilization has been used more recently in Israel, and was employed in many of the more conservative US states, just to cite a few examples.

Though I don't dispute that many socialists and progressives were proponents of these ideas at the beginning of the century. But today "progressives" are more about gay marriage and higher minimum wages than eugenics.


And no I don't think this goes with the racism thread It is similar in some ways but not the same
Worth noting that eugenics programs disproportionately targeted non-whites, as well as their primary victims among the mentally ill. There is a clear racial component, and many of the same arguments that support racist ideology can also be used to support eugenics.
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
This was Genocide that inspired the Nazi death camps. Eugenics was popular with progressives until the end of WWII opened up those death camps for the world to see the end result. But in some places the left wing solution of eugenics lived on.
Nazi German concentration camps were inspired by British camps from the Boer war, and the idea of genocide is ancient, only the pseudo-scientific justification of genetics is new.
No that is not correct. Many progressives thought the Nazi Idealswere wonderful until they were discredited. This is something very well documented. Though the progressive MSM doesn't like to talk about it

http://hnn.us/article/1796
The Horrifying American Roots of Nazi Eugenics
I think you're in for a real challenge if you're trying to pin the idea of eugenics on "left wing" or "progressive" politics. The Nazis are the most famous right wing example in history, Imperial Japan is another, and forced sterilization has been used more recently in Israel, and was employed in many of the more conservative US states, just to cite a few examples.

Though I don't dispute that many socialists and progressives were proponents of these ideas at the beginning of the century. But today "progressives" are more about gay marriage and higher minimum wages than eugenics.

Wrong it is one of the easiest argument to prove there is There are tonnes of links. Don't take my word for it just Google "Progressives eugenics Nazi"
The Nazis were more Populist left than anything else. Just read their political manifestos.The 25 points for example

1 to 10 are mostly right wing. And in fact the rest are left off of many of the lists by left wing authors. However 11 to 25 are mostly very far to the left. And are in fact more or less the same thing the left wants today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_S ... SDAP[quote]
11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery.
12.In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13.We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts).
14.We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries.
15.We demand an expansion on a large scale of old age welfare.
16.We demand the creation of a healthy middle class and its conservation, immediate communalization of the great warehouses and their being leased at low cost to small firms, the utmost consideration of all small firms in contracts with the State, county or municipality.
17.We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land.
18,We demand struggle without consideration against those whose activity is injurious to the general interest. Common national criminals, usurers, profiteers and so forth are to be punished with death, without consideration of confession or race.
19.We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order.
20.The state is to be responsible for a fundamental reconstruction of our whole national education program, to enable every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education and subsequently introduction into leading positions. The plans of instruction of all educational institutions are to conform with the experiences of practical life. The comprehension of the concept of the State must be striven for by the school [Staatsbuergerkunde] as early as the beginning of understanding. We demand the education at the expense of the State of outstanding intellectually gifted children of poor parents without consideration of position or profession.
21.The State is to care for the elevating national health by protecting the mother and child, by outlawing child-labor, by the encouragement of physical fitness, by means of the legal establishment of a gymnastic and sport obligation, by the utmost support of all organizations concerned with the physical instruction of the young.
22.We demand abolition of the mercenary troops and formation of a national army.
23.We demand legal opposition to known lies and their promulgation through the press. In order to enable the provision of a German press, we demand, that: a. All writers and employees of the newspapers appearing in the German language be members of the race; b. Non-German newspapers be required to have the express permission of the State to be published. They may not be printed in the German language; c. Non-Germans are forbidden by law any financial interest in German publications, or any influence on them, and as punishment for violations the closing of such a publication as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-German concerned. Publications which are counter to the general good are to be forbidden. We demand legal prosecution of artistic and literary forms which exert a destructive influence on our national life, and the closure of organizations opposing the above made demands.
24.We demand freedom of religion for all religious denominations within the state so long as they do not endanger its existence or oppose the moral senses of the Germanic race. The Party as such advocates the standpoint of a positive Christianity without binding itself confessionally to any one denomination. It combats the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our nation can only succeed from within on the framework: The good of the state before the good of the individual.[8]
25.For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration.[/quote]

And no I don't think this goes with the racism thread It is similar in some ways but not the same
Worth noting that eugenics programs disproportionately targeted non-whites, as well as their primary victims among the mentally ill. There is a clear racial component, and many of the same arguments that support racist ideology can also be used to support eugenics.
None of which means it is the same thing.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
Ibrahim
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
This was Genocide that inspired the Nazi death camps. Eugenics was popular with progressives until the end of WWII opened up those death camps for the world to see the end result. But in some places the left wing solution of eugenics lived on.
Nazi German concentration camps were inspired by British camps from the Boer war, and the idea of genocide is ancient, only the pseudo-scientific justification of genetics is new.
No that is not correct.
Wait, what exactly are you saying is incorrect?


Many progressives thought the Nazi Idealswere wonderful until they were discredited.
As did many conservatives.


This is something very well documented. Though the progressive MSM doesn't like to talk about it
Is this really some half-assed attempt to argue that contemporary progressives = Nazis, and the "media" is covering it up?


I think you're in for a real challenge if you're trying to pin the idea of eugenics on "left wing" or "progressive" politics. The Nazis are the most famous right wing example in history, Imperial Japan is another, and forced sterilization has been used more recently in Israel, and was employed in many of the more conservative US states, just to cite a few examples.

Though I don't dispute that many socialists and progressives were proponents of these ideas at the beginning of the century. But today "progressives" are more about gay marriage and higher minimum wages than eugenics.

Wrong it is one of the easiest argument to prove there is There are tonnes of links. Don't take my word for it just Google "Progressives eugenics Nazi"
The fact that there are many links to something doesn't help you out at all. A bunch of right wing blogs agreeing with one another that left = nazi doesn't help you out here. You didn't actually respond to any of the examples I gave except the Nazi one, which you started out with.

The Nazis were more Populist left than anything else.
Populist conservative. They riled up the anti-communist working man to go out into the streets and beat up the communist working man. The whole fascist thing was a reaction to socialism, and it stayed that way right up to the right-wing dictators we were supporting until the 1990's.

Just read their political manifestos.The 25 points for example

1 to 10 are mostly right wing. And in fact the rest are left off of many of the lists by left wing authors. However 11 to 25 are mostly very far to the left. And are in fact more or less the same thing the left wants today:
So other than 10 out of 25 points its not right wing, and moreover you argue that the remaining points (allegedly scrubbed from history by "the media" yet readily available) are what "the left today" wants?

And no I don't think this goes with the racism thread It is similar in some ways but not the same
Worth noting that eugenics programs disproportionately targeted non-whites, as well as their primary victims among the mentally ill. There is a clear racial component, and many of the same arguments that support racist ideology can also be used to support eugenics.
None of which means it is the same thing.
Its exactly the same philosophical justification. But you aren't trying to talk about philosophy, are you?
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
This was Genocide that inspired the Nazi death camps. Eugenics was popular with progressives until the end of WWII opened up those death camps for the world to see the end result. But in some places the left wing solution of eugenics lived on.
Nazi German concentration camps were inspired by British camps from the Boer war, and the idea of genocide is ancient, only the pseudo-scientific justification of genetics is new.
No that is not correct.
Wait, what exactly are you saying is incorrect?


that the Germans got the idea of concentration camps from the Boer war. American Progressives wanted to make death camps with death chambers in the US but figured it would have be too controversial to start with.


Many progressives thought the Nazi Idealswere wonderful until they were discredited.
As did many conservatives.
Nope if you look at all the leading figures of the eugenics movement they were the people that Progressives admired.



This is something very well documented. Though the progressive MSM doesn't like to talk about it
Is this really some half-assed attempt to argue that contemporary progressives = Nazis, and the "media" is covering it up?
I am showing that anytime a political ideology says it knows better what others should do with their lives is showing in the least latent fascist tendencies


I think you're in for a real challenge if you're trying to pin the idea of eugenics on "left wing" or "progressive" politics. The Nazis are the most famous right wing example in history, Imperial Japan is another, and forced sterilization has been used more recently in Israel, and was employed in many of the more conservative US states, just to cite a few examples.

Though I don't dispute that many socialists and progressives were proponents of these ideas at the beginning of the century. But today "progressives" are more about gay marriage and higher minimum wages than eugenics.

Wrong it is one of the easiest argument to prove there is There are tonnes of links. Don't take my word for it just Google "Progressives eugenics Nazi"
The fact that there are many links to something doesn't help you out at all. A bunch of right wing blogs agreeing with one another that left = nazi doesn't help you out here. You didn't actually respond to any of the examples I gave except the Nazi one, which you started out with.
Salon.com is anything but a right wing blog. hnn.com IS anything but a right wing blog.


The Nazis were more Populist left than anything else.
Populist conservative. They riled up the anti-communist working man to go out into the streets and beat up the communist working man. The whole fascist thing was a reaction to socialism, and it stayed that way right up to the right-wing dictators we were supporting until the 1990's.
Just read their political manifestos.The 25 points for example

1 to 10 are mostly right wing. And in fact the rest are left off of many of the lists by left wing authors. However 11 to 25 are mostly very far to the left. And are in fact more or less the same thing the left wants today:
So other than 10 out of 25 points its not right wing, and moreover you argue that the remaining points (allegedly scrubbed from history by "the media" yet readily available) are what "the left today" wants?
Mostly they are left wing, not "not right wing" And even among the first 10 there are partly left wing demands For example 7 is mostly left wing. And I can prove there is a cover up of the left wing side of the Nazis.This site for example:

http://www.ohrconline.org/wp-content/up ... tforms.pdf

It speaks of the 25 demands however it only lists the first 10 mostly right wing demands.The first ten it does list have been completely white washed of any left wing sentiments 7 and 9 particularly.

And no I don't think this goes with the racism thread It is similar in some ways but not the same
Worth noting that eugenics programs disproportionately targeted non-whites, as well as their primary victims among the mentally ill. There is a clear racial component, and many of the same arguments that support racist ideology can also be used to support eugenics.
None of which means it is the same thing.
Its exactly the same philosophical justification. But you aren't trying to talk about philosophy, are you?
Every logical discussion is philosophy at its root. However I do agree mostly. The biggest difference is that left wingers never admit that they are the problem That they are racist. They feel they know better what others should do and therefore they are not racists. Go back and read the racist apologist sentiment of Salon.com But then also read the indictment:
The situation was most keenly appreciated by progressives — scientists, businessmen, feminists and liberal politicians — who, as even the best of us sometimes do, feared that within a short time, the nation would be overrun by simpletons.
It’s lately become fashionable to reckon with growing ignorance among one’s countrymen by threatening to emigrate to Canada; for American intellectuals of an earlier generation the more obvious solution was forced sterilization.
Progressives saw sterilization as having natural advantages over traditional methods of helping the poor, such as charity. Sterilization was “scientific” — its rationale could be found in the writings of Charles Darwin’s cousin Francis Galton, the father of eugenics, who mused that superior people, like superior crops and farm animals, were the product of good breeding.
Superior people apparently -- actually think with all certainty, in their superiority, that they know what is best for the lives of others. At least people that think they are superior.
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Enki »

Ibrahim wrote:This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
The Simpletons HAVE taken over.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Doc »

Enki wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
The Simpletons HAVE taken over.
And the names that progressives use have not changed much either.

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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
This was Genocide that inspired the Nazi death camps. Eugenics was popular with progressives until the end of WWII opened up those death camps for the world to see the end result. But in some places the left wing solution of eugenics lived on.
Nazi German concentration camps were inspired by British camps from the Boer war, and the idea of genocide is ancient, only the pseudo-scientific justification of genetics is new.
No that is not correct.
Wait, what exactly are you saying is incorrect?


that the Germans got the idea of concentration camps from the Boer war. American Progressives wanted to make death camps with death chambers in the US but figured it would have be too controversial to start with.
You don't know what you are talking about at all. This is all very rich considering you accuse everyone of playing out of some radical guidebook yet you are obviously only repeating material that you heard, and that you are totally incapable of judging for yourself.
Use of the word "concentration" came from the idea of using documents confining to one place a group of people who are in some way undesirable. The term itself originated in the "reconcentration camps" set up in Cuba by General Valeriano Weyler in 1897. Concentration camps had in the past been used by the U.S. against Native Americans and by the British in the Second Boer War. Between 1904 and 1908, the Imperial German Army operated both concentration camps and the Shark Island Extermination Camp in German South-West Africa (now Namibia) as part of their genocide of the Herero and Namaqua peoples.

When the Nazis came to power in Germany, they quickly moved to ruthlessly suppress all real or potential opposition. The general public was intimidated through arbitrary psychological terror of the special courts (Sondergerichte).[5] Especially during the first years of their existence these courts "had a strong deterrent effect" against any form of political protest.[6]

The first camp in Germany, Dachau, was founded in March 1933.[7] The press announcement said that "the first concentration camp is to be opened in Dachau with an accommodation for 5,000 persons. All Communists and – where necessary – Reichsbanner and Social Democratic functionaries who endanger state security are to be concentrated there, as in the long run it is not possible to keep individual functionaries in the state prisons without overburdening these prisons."[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_conce ... -war_camps








Many progressives thought the Nazi Idealswere wonderful until they were discredited.
As did many conservatives.
Nope if you look at all the leading figures of the eugenics movement they were the people that Progressives admired.
What do you mean "nope?" That no conservatives believed in eugenics? Churchill was a proponent.






The fact that there are many links to something doesn't help you out at all. A bunch of right wing blogs agreeing with one another that left = nazi doesn't help you out here. You didn't actually respond to any of the examples I gave except the Nazi one, which you started out with.
Salon.com is anything but a right wing blog. hnn.com IS anything but a right wing blog.
Op-ed, reviews, etc.




And I can prove there is a cover up of the left wing side of the Nazis.
How would you know one way or the other?



Every logical discussion is philosophy at its root. However I do agree mostly. The biggest difference is that left wingers never admit that they are the problem That they are racist.
All of your posts that aren't "Obama sux" are about this basic idea: "I'm not the racist, conservatives aren't racists, its the people calling us racists that are racists." Its a joke.


Superior people apparently -- actually think with all certainty, in their superiority, that they know what is best for the lives of others. At least people that think they are superior.
Says the man who insults people based on their ethnicity and calls other cultures "disgusting" while excusing the wholesale murder of said people by his own government. Sorry, was it racist of me to point that out?
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Ibrahim »

Enki wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
The Simpletons HAVE taken over.
Everything is Hitler. Democrats are Hitler. Actual left wing is Hitler. Obama is fifty Hitlers. Alinksy, Goebbels. Hillary Clinton is one thousand Hitlers forged together in the heart of a dying star.

/thread
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by noddy »

killing all the folks that make your worldview difficult is as old as pack animals and possibly older.

not killing them is more unique, some say thats cultural evolution and progress, cynical ole me thinks its more a sympton of good times and might not last as the world economy goes backwards and the consequences of a 50 year debt binge unfold.
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Enki wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
The Simpletons HAVE taken over.
Everything is Hitler. Democrats are Hitler. Actual left wing is Hitler. Obama is fifty Hitlers. Alinksy, Goebbels. Hillary Clinton is one thousand Hitlers forged together in the heart of a dying star.

/thread
As I said progressives have been calling people more or less the same names for over 100 years I suppose they havea hard time learning new names to call people they inherently look down on out of their own sense of superiority. Oh the sweet irony of it all !!! :D :lol:

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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:
OK Ibrahim I will just igore all the petty personal attacks and reply to where you actually tried to make a point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_conce ... -war_camps

I did not say the Boer wars did not happen or did not give the Nazis some ideas. You never pointed out all the other example either. The Nazis got their theories eugenics from American progressives. There is a clear link going from the US to Nazi Germany. Progressives held up Eugenics as a model of how to deal with the mental ill until after the German concentration camps were opened for the world to see at the end of WWII. All the while American progressives were running their decades old concentration camps Forced sterilizations of "Undesirables" or the"unfit"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
Eugenic policies were first implemented in the early 1900s in the United States.[12] Later, in the 1920s and 30s, the eugenic policy of sterilizing certain mental patients was implemented in other countries, including Belgium,[13] Brazil,[14] Canada,[15] and Sweden.[16] The scientific reputation of eugenics started to decline in the 1930s, a time when Ernst Rüdin used eugenics as a justification for the racial policies of Nazi Germany. Nevertheless, in Sweden the eugenics program continued until 1975.[16]
Today, eugenics is regarded by some as a brutal movement which inflicted human rights violations on millions.[27] Some practices engaged in the name of eugenics, such as attacks on reputation and violations of privacy, reproductive rights, the right to life, the right to found a family, and the right to freedom from discrimination, are today classified as violations of human rights.




Many progressives thought the Nazi Idealswere wonderful until they were discredited.
As did many conservatives.
Doc wrote:Nope if you look at all the leading figures of the eugenics movement they were the people that Progressives admired.
Ibrahim wrote:What do you mean "nope?" That no conservatives believed in eugenics? Churchill was a proponent.
Nope as in some conservatives believed in it. However progressives own eugenics.





The fact that there are many links to something doesn't help you out at all. A bunch of right wing blogs agreeing with one another that left = nazi doesn't help you out here. You didn't actually respond to any of the examples I gave except the Nazi one, which you started out with.
Salon.com is anything but a right wing blog. hnn.com IS anything but a right wing blog.
Op-ed, reviews, etc.
:roll:




And I can prove there is a cover up of the left wing side of the Nazis.
How would you know one way or the other?
Ironic personal slur aside I already made the point in the part of my reply you cut out. That is really dishonest of you Ibby. I mean really :evil:



Every logical discussion is philosophy at its root. However I do agree mostly. The biggest difference is that left wingers never admit that they are the problem That they are racist.
All of your posts that aren't "Obama sux" are about this basic idea: "I'm not the racist, conservatives aren't racists, its the people calling us racists that are racists." Its a joke.
The joke is how you and tinker respond to stimuli. You use the same tire old name calling and you try real hard to misrepresent what those that call you on your self declared superior form of BS. Above you cry about how I do this or I do that. But in truth what you accuse me of here is all you know how to do."teabaggers" "retards" "Simpletons" "racist" It is all you know. That's the joke. You can dish it out but you can't take it. :D

Superior people apparently -- actually think with all certainty, in their superiority, that they know what is best for the lives of others. At least people that think they are superior.
hose

Says the man who insults people based on their ethnicity and calls other cultures disgusting" while excusing the wholesale murder of said people by his own government. Sorry, was it racist of me to point that out?[/quote]

Says the one that constantly misrepresents what others that disagree with him said.
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Doc »

noddy wrote:killing all the folks that make your worldview difficult is as old as pack animals and possibly older.

not killing them is more unique, some say thats cultural evolution and progress, cynical ole me thinks its more a sympton of good times and might not last as the world economy goes backwards and the consequences of a 50 year debt binge unfold.
My point here is that all the screaming name calling here is about person politics not what is best for others even though it is always couched in those term The tinker and ibby show don't even understand how d=to defend their ideas without resorting to the name calling and the personal attacks in general. It is not about racism or wars or even government spying just cheap propagandizing of a cheap religion. Complete style over substance.

Care for the mentally disturbed can be extremely challenging. It is hard. That does not mean in any way shape or fashion it is OK to dump
them into hell or put them "out of their misery" as the progressives did in the first half of the twentieth century by people claiming what they knew was best for others.
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by noddy »

Doc wrote:
noddy wrote:killing all the folks that make your worldview difficult is as old as pack animals and possibly older.

not killing them is more unique, some say thats cultural evolution and progress, cynical ole me thinks its more a sympton of good times and might not last as the world economy goes backwards and the consequences of a 50 year debt binge unfold.
My point here is that all the screaming name calling here is about person politics not what is best for others even though it is always couched in those term The tinker and ibby show don't even understand how d=to defend their ideas without resorting to the name calling and the personal attacks in general. It is not about racism or wars or even government spying just cheap propagandizing of a cheap religion. Complete style over substance.

Care for the mentally disturbed can be extremely challenging. It is hard. That does not mean in any way shape or fashion it is OK to dump
them into hell or put them "out of their misery" as the progressives did in the first half of the twentieth century by people claiming what they knew was best for others.
dunno - the pot kettle black thing is going in all directions to my detached viewpoint.
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Doc »

noddy wrote:
Doc wrote:
noddy wrote:killing all the folks that make your worldview difficult is as old as pack animals and possibly older.

not killing them is more unique, some say thats cultural evolution and progress, cynical ole me thinks its more a sympton of good times and might not last as the world economy goes backwards and the consequences of a 50 year debt binge unfold.
My point here is that all the screaming name calling here is about person politics not what is best for others even though it is always couched in those term The tinker and ibby show don't even understand how d=to defend their ideas without resorting to the name calling and the personal attacks in general. It is not about racism or wars or even government spying just cheap propagandizing of a cheap religion. Complete style over substance.

Care for the mentally disturbed can be extremely challenging. It is hard. That does not mean in any way shape or fashion it is OK to dump
them into hell or put them "out of their misery" as the progressives did in the first half of the twentieth century by people claiming what they knew was best for others.
dunno - the pot kettle black thing is going in all directions to my detached viewpoint.
Just American politics. Everyone loves labels
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Ibrahim »

You keep mangling the quote function so I'll just excerpt your immediate replies.



Nope as in some conservatives believed in it. However progressives own eugenics.
Conservative regimes implemented it and prominent conservative figures believed in it, but you claim that progressives "own" it anyway.



Ironic personal slur aside I already made the point in the part of my reply you cut out. That is really dishonest of you Ibby. I mean really
Ah nice, two lies in one sentence and then the hypocrisy of calling me a liar. Nothing I cut out proved anything, and I did not make a personal slur. I pointed out that you have no known credentials or demonstrated knowledge of history, and thus your unsupported declarations amount to very little.



The joke is how you and tinker respond to stimuli. You use the same tire old name calling and you try real hard to misrepresent what those that call you on your self declared superior form of BS. Above you cry about how I do this or I do that. But in truth what you accuse me of here is all you know how to do."teabaggers" "retards" "Simpletons" "racist" It is all you know. That's the joke. You can dish it out but you can't take it. :D
You made several racist statements in one thread and you just can't stop bringing it up and whining about it in every thread you participate in. So don't break the hypocrisy meter by talking about how thin skinned other people are. Also, complaining about the condescension of others while referring to people "responding to stimuli" like amoebas is also pretty rich, considering.
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:You keep mangling the quote function so I'll just excerpt your immediate replies.



Nope as in some conservatives believed in it. However progressives own eugenics.
Conservative regimes implemented it and prominent conservative figures believed in it, but you claim that progressives "own" it anyway.
But it still came from Progressive in the US that thought they knew better.




Ironic personal slur aside I already made the point in the part of my reply you cut out. That is really dishonest of you Ibby. I mean really
Ah nice, two lies in one sentence and then the hypocrisy of calling me a liar. Nothing I cut out proved anything, and I did not make a personal slur. I pointed out that you have no known credentials or demonstrated knowledge of history, and thus your unsupported declarations amount to very little.
What I wrote in my reply to you: viewtopic.php?p=66120#p66120
Ibrahim wrote:So other than 10 out of 25 points its not right wing, and moreover you argue that the remaining points (allegedly scrubbed from history by "the media" yet readily available) are what "the left today" wants?
Mostly they are left wing, not "not right wing" And even among the first 10 there are partly left wing demands For example 7 is mostly left wing. And I can prove there is a cover up of the left wing side of the Nazis.This site for example:

http://www.ohrconline.org/wp-content/up ... tforms.pdf

It speaks of the 25 demands however it only lists the first 10 mostly right wing demands.The first ten it does list have been completely white washed of any left wing sentiments 7 and 9 particularly.
What you left of the above in your reply:viewtopic.php?p=66165#p66165
Doc wrote: And I can prove there is a cover up of the left wing side of the Nazis.
How would you know one way or the other?
You made a reply ignoring 90% of what I said and tried to claim Implicitly that I gave no proof of my claim. In my book that is you lying. :evil:

The joke is how you and tinker respond to stimuli. You use the same tire old name calling and you try real hard to misrepresent what those that call you on your self declared superior form of BS. Above you cry about how I do this or I do that. But in truth what you accuse me of here is all you know how to do."teabaggers" "retards" "Simpletons" "racist" It is all you know. That's the joke. You can dish it out but you can't take it. :D
You made several racist statements in one thread and you just can't stop bringing it up and whining about it in every thread you participate in. So don't break the hypocrisy meter by talking about how thin skinned other people are. Also, complaining about the condescension of others while referring to people "responding to stimuli" like amoebas is also pretty rich, considering.[/quote]

Actually you have made enumerous "racist" statements against Americans You have demonstrated repeatedly that you have the closed mind of a bigot. To the point where you refuse to even consider watch a video that gives another largely silence parties to the conflict in Iraq voice.

nTLIS6oOuRY
I have demonstrated in this very thread that left wing Ideology is at its roots "racist" in claiming then going out to enforce its ideology that it "knows what best for others" Which is reflected a great deal in statement by the modern left that people that want to keep their health insurance plans PERIOD are too stupid to know what is good for them.

And the last part of that post you cut out (And yes I have noticed repeatedly that you cut out anything you have no answer for pretending it was never said.)
Every logical discussion is philosophy at its root. However I do agree mostly. The biggest difference is that left wingers never admit that they are the problem That they are racist. They feel they know better what others should do and therefore they are not racists. Go back and read the racist apologist sentiment of Salon.com But then also read the indictment:

http://www.salon.com/2006/03/04/bruinius/
The situation was most keenly appreciated by progressives — scientists, businessmen, feminists and liberal politicians — who, as even the best of us sometimes do, feared that within a short time, the nation would be overrun by simpletons.
It’s lately become fashionable to reckon with growing ignorance among one’s countrymen by threatening to emigrate to Canada; for American intellectuals of an earlier generation the more obvious solution was forced sterilization.
Progressives saw sterilization as having natural advantages over traditional methods of helping the poor, such as charity. Sterilization was “scientific” — its rationale could be found in the writings of Charles Darwin’s cousin Francis Galton, the father of eugenics, who mused that superior people, like superior crops and farm animals, were the product of good breeding.
Superior people apparently -- actually think with all certainty, in their superiority, that they know what is best for the lives of others. At least people that think they are superior.
= "racists","bigots" whatever name you actually mean when you say "racist"
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:Actually you have made enumerous "racist" statements against Americans You have demonstrated repeatedly that you have the closed mind of a bigot.
Lies.




I have demonstrated in this very thread
That you're a joke.



The rest of that post was the same garbage you spam in every thread and that I already dealt with.
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Actually you have made enumerous "racist" statements against Americans You have demonstrated repeatedly that you have the closed mind of a bigot.
Lies.
Oh so you did watch the video? ;)

nTLIS6oOuRY




I have demonstrated in this very thread
That you're a joke.
I know what and who I am. What are you?


Ibrahim wrote:The rest of that post was the same garbage you spam in every thread and that I already dealt with.
You snipped it out REMEMBER? That is you feeling you dealt with it? Put your head in a hole in the ground and declare victory. Pretty wimpy Ibrahim.
Last edited by Doc on Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Enki wrote:
Ibrahim wrote:This actually bleeds into the racism thread nicely. Pseudo-scientific theories of both racism and eugenics peaked at the beginning of the 20th century. "Simpletons" were going to overrun society from within just at the "yellow peril" was going to overrun the colonial era world order.
The Simpletons HAVE taken over.
Indeed. The electoral results starting in 2008 attest to that. We can agree there.
Censorship isn't necessary
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Ibrahim »

Doc wrote:Put your head in a hole in the ground and declare victory. Pretty wimpy Ibrahim.
Didn't you just make about five replies so far with my text snipped out and consisting of nothing but :roll: ?
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Doc »

Ibrahim wrote:
Doc wrote:Put your head in a hole in the ground and declare victory. Pretty wimpy Ibrahim.
:roll:
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Re: Progressives and Eugenics: Knowing whats best for others

Post by Typhoon »

The only thing I've learned from this discussion is that N Am conservatives and progressive lives entirely rent free in each other's heads.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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