The Future of the EU

[Parodite]

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Yup, he is right.

[Mr. Perfect]

Europe has no future. No money, no children, no dreams or ambitions beyond redistribution. A failed civilization. At this point can't say I'll miss it.

[Endovelico]

Europe has no future. No money, no children, no dreams or ambitions beyond redistribution. A failed civilization. At this point can't say I'll miss it.

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. You would have said just about the same thing about China, if you had lived in the 19th century. Funny how some people are watching a movie but are incapable of looking beyond a single frame...

[manolo]

Folks,

My Dad was a zenophobe, like many of his generation. The only time he had been abroad was as a soldier in ww11. For some reason I failed to travel abroad until my mid forties.

What an eye opener! To hear my Dad you would think that the 'fuzzy wuzzies' were lurking at Calais with spears and a bone through the nose. The first trip was a drive down through France on the excellent motorways, along the Cote d'Azure into Italy and back through Switzerland. Then followed trips to Holland, Belgium, Greece, Spain, Portugal et al. I encountered wealth, lovely food, beautiful weather,friendly locals, knowledgeable ex pats, art, architecture, landscape, and maybe above all a feeling of civilisation. My favourite city is Brussels, natural centre of the EU and a brilliant melting pot of street life. Another pleasant surprise.

The overall impression I had of the continental view of Brits is that we are a bit uncouth and lacking personal hygiene. Many commented on the smell of disinfectant around our public buildings and hotels. Not much to write home about.

Alex.

[Mr. Perfect]

Europe has no future. No money, no children, no dreams or ambitions beyond redistribution. A failed civilization. At this point can't say I'll miss it.

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. You would have said just about the same thing about China, if you had lived in the 19th century. Funny how some people are watching a movie but are incapable of looking beyond a single frame...

Boy are you right about that. Europe in the next few frames goes bankrupt with no children. It's just basic math.

[Mr. Perfect]

Rest assured ethinker, nobody is afraid of Europeans. Nobody.

[Alexis]

Mr. P in action


"Come here, I taunt you!
.
.
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... Hey, will you come?"

[Endovelico]

Europe has no future. No money, no children, no dreams or ambitions beyond redistribution. A failed civilization. At this point can't say I'll miss it.

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. You would have said just about the same thing about China, if you had lived in the 19th century. Funny how some people are watching a movie but are incapable of looking beyond a single frame...

Boy are you right about that. Europe in the next few frames goes bankrupt with no children. It's just basic math.

No. In the next few frames in your movie proof will be presented that the Earth is and always has been flat as a pancake!...

[Endovelico]

Rest assured ethinker, nobody is afraid of Europeans. Nobody.

Why should people fear us? We have no Patriot Act and the NSA isn't European... Besides we don't usually kill children, women and other innocent bystanders...

[Azrael]

Europe has no future. No money, no children, no dreams or ambitions beyond redistribution. A failed civilization. At this point can't say I'll miss it.

You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. You would have said just about the same thing about China, if you had lived in the 19th century. Funny how some people are watching a movie but are incapable of looking beyond a single frame...

Good point.

And look at China now. There are some hopeful signs (some of the young people are very impressive); but with repression, corruption and very low birthrates, the next few decades could be a struggle.

[Azrael]

Rest assured ethinker, nobody is afraid of Europeans. Nobody.

Why should people fear us? We have no Patriot Act and the NSA isn't European... Besides we don't usually kill children, women and other innocent bystanders...

Mr. Perfect seems to think that the goal should be making people fear us, as if killing hundreds of thousands of innocent people on the other side of the world for no good reason after telling lie after lie to justify an invasion is a good thing. That's what criminals do, not what civilized people should aspire to.

[Azrael]

Folks,

My Dad was a zenophobe, like many of his generation. The only time he had been abroad was as a soldier in ww11. For some reason I failed to travel abroad until my mid forties.

What an eye opener! To hear my Dad you would think that the 'fuzzy wuzzies' were lurking at Calais with spears and a bone through the nose. The first trip was a drive down through France on the excellent motorways, along the Cote d'Azure into Italy and back through Switzerland. Then followed trips to Holland, Belgium, Greece, Spain, Portugal et al. I encountered wealth, lovely food, beautiful weather,friendly locals, knowledgeable ex pats, art, architecture, landscape, and maybe above all a feeling of civilisation. My favourite city is Brussels, natural centre of the EU and a brilliant melting pot of street life. Another pleasant surprise.

The overall impression I had of the continental view of Brits is that we are a bit uncouth and lacking personal hygiene. Many commented on the smell of disinfectant around our public buildings and hotels. Not much to write home about.

Alex.

It's all wogs East of King Street

[Mr. Perfect]

Ethinker simply raised the issue of xenophobia, and I wanted to make him feel better. Nobody fears Europeans. Few people are even aware they exist anymore.

ANd Azrael if you don't mind injecting some truth into your statements, I think yo umean to say "wars voted for and funded by and continued by Democrats including barack obama who extended the Iraq War on to Bush/McCain timelines and the AFG war way past Bush/McCain timelines, expanding neocon policy into Libya, Syria and Pakistat (drones wars), to the point the barack obama stated he's getting very good at killing people . If you are interested in truth we have to add that in of course.

[Endovelico]

Ethinker simply raised the issue of xenophobia, and I wanted to make him feel better. Nobody fears Europeans. Few people are even aware they exist anymore.

I wish it were true...

[monster_gardener]

Rest assured ethinker, nobody is afraid of Europeans. Nobody.

Why should people fear us? We have no Patriot Act and the NSA isn't European... Besides we don't usually kill children, women and other innocent bystanders...

Thank You Very Much for your post, Friend Endovelico

Besides we don't usually kill children, women and other innocent bystanders...

With all due respect and largely exempting Portugal thanks to the heroic acts of St. Astrides Mendes Sousa, that is not a good argument for Europe as a whole...

Aristides de Sousa Mendes do Amaral e Abranches, GCC, OL (July 19, 1885 – April 3, 1954; Portuguese pronunciation: [ɐɾiʃˈtiðɨʒ ðɨ ˈsowzɐ ˈmẽdɨʃ]) was a Portuguese consul. As Portuguese Consul-General in Bordeaux, France, he defied the orders of his own government for the safety of war refugees fleeing from invading German military forces in the early years of World War II. In the Spring of 1940, he issued Portuguese visas to thousands of refugees seeking to escape the Nazi terror.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristides_de_Sousa_Mendes

[Parodite]

Most Europeans have little idea or interest in what the EU is doing, what those (non-elected) politicians in Brussels are are cooking. It is hardly an issue in national politics and the media. No meaningful debates about the Euro.. what it is good for or bad. For those reasons already it lost its legitimacy IMO.

Endo mentioned elsewhere that there are things that sovereign states ought decide themselves, and things that concern the European neighborhood as a whole that should be dealt with in a common context. But then of course the question is, what are the national issues and what are the European issues.. exactly?

In general I tend to think that political issues are always national issues only. Economical issues of course have both a national and a European/international component, but in my view both must be under the control of and the product of national democratic processes still. In as far as things need to be decided in a common European context, this can be done by national representatives that were elected in national elections. The EU does not meet any of those. It has a serious democratic deficit.

Why this is all particularly bad, is that national governments already suffer a growing democratic deficit. The USG is one very good example. Increasingly peoples votes are turned impotent versus the legalized bribery system where money buys legislation and the public is being distracted with least of all worries like gay marriage. Or governments that simply turned totally corrupt as in Greece destroying a country's economy sliding down the slippery slopes of irrecoverable national deficits, while banks love those deficits and the bail outs by tax payers. In such a context, the EU as it is now, is just setting things up for more failures of same; a cancerous, undemocratic political bureaucracy that serves as an easy access for more inbreeding oligarchic activities, plus (un-elected) USSR-style ideologues who want to hijack political issues from national agenda's and autocratically decide for everybody in the EU parliament.

[Endovelico]

Most Europeans have little idea or interest in what the EU is doing, what those (non-elected) politicians in Brussels are are cooking. It is hardly an issue in national politics and the media. No meaningful debates about the Euro.. what it is good for or bad. For those reasons already it lost its legitimacy IMO.

Endo mentioned elsewhere that there are things that sovereign states ought decide themselves, and things that concern the European neighborhood as a whole that should be dealt with in a common context. But then of course the question is, what are the national issues and what are the European issues.. exactly?

In general I tend to think that political issues are always national issues only. Economical issues of course have both a national and a European/international component, but in my view both must be under the control of and the product of national democratic processes still. In as far as things need to be decided in a common European context, this can be done by national representatives that were elected in national elections. The EU does not meet any of those. It has a serious democratic deficit.

Why this is all particularly bad, is that national governments already suffer a growing democratic deficit. The USG is one very good example. Increasingly peoples votes are turned impotent versus the legalized bribery system where money buys legislation and the public is being distracted with least of all worries like gay marriage. Or governments that simply turned totally corrupt as in Greece destroying a country's economy sliding down the slippery slopes of irrecoverable national deficits, while banks love those deficits and the bail outs by tax payers. In such a context, the EU as it is now, is just setting things up for more failures of same; a cancerous, undemocratic political bureaucracy that serves as an easy access for more inbreeding oligarchic activities, plus (un-elected) USSR-style ideologues who want to hijack political issues from national agenda's and autocratically decide for everybody in the EU parliament.

As things now stand I would say you are mostly right. But it could change. If Europe were to become a confederacy, it would be concerned with keeping a free economy, managing a common currency, foreign affairs and defense. Everything else would be handled by the national governments. Then Europe would have a two chamber parliament - one chamber as it now stands, and an elected senate, with equal representation for all countries. The Council would disappear, and the Commission would become the confederate government, answering to the Parliament. Presumably there would also be a President, directly elected by the peoples of Europe. Such a construction would be democratic and no country would dominate the whole, as it now happens with Germany. There would be European taxes to finance the European budget, but any European taxes would be compensated by a reduction in national taxation. No reason it wouldn't work.

[Typhoon]

Ethinker simply raised the issue of xenophobia, and I wanted to make him feel better. Nobody fears Europeans. Few people are even aware they exist anymore.

. . .

Boeing does . . .

At the annual conference that I attend in Chicago, in a field that is on the bleeding edge of science and tech, I've noticed the following changes over the last 10 years.

On the scientific side:

* More and more high impact presentations from researchers outside of the US

On the industrial side:

* The ever growing prominence of European, Japanese, then Chinese, and now Korean companies. Samsung, for example, had a massive booth for the first time this year.

* More European and Asian mid-size and venture companies than those originating in the US.

* A rapidly increasing percentage of overseas attendees

This is not a small obscure field. Last year there was about 90,000 attendees at the meeting.

So I think one's perceptions depend on one's level of insularity or lack thereof.

[Mr. Perfect]

Speaking of insularity, anecdotes are anecdotes.

[Typhoon]

Speaking of insularity, anecdotes are anecdotes.

A bit rich considering.

The logic does not follow: anecdotes does not imply insularity.

The Airbus 350 competitor to the troubled Boeing 787 is a matter of public record.

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As for the anecdotal rest, take it or leave it.

[Parodite]

As things now stand I would say you are mostly right. But it could change. If Europe were to become a confederacy, it would be concerned with keeping a free economy, managing a common currency, foreign affairs and defense. Everything else would be handled by the national governments.

Free economy in principle is not dependent on a EU confederacy. And before the Euro there was free economy already and it did fine. In fact it did better. In my view, a currency should represent political-economical units, like nation states. One could maybe devise an abstract currency for instance to replace the US dollar in the future, where important national currencies plus some economic indexes that include commodities are used to produce an reference number/"currency". But national currencies are in my view necessary and should never be dismantled!

For the record, regarding the Euro. I have not heard any politician here in the Netherlands, nor economics professors say the Euro was a good idea (!!!!) It was either introduced "too early" given the dissimilarity between the countries, but considered politically necessary (read: it payed of politically)... or, and more importantly in my view, a bad idea to begin with! There was this forum discussion once on TV, where a rather young economics professor countered all the arguments that supposedly the Euro is good for European economies with solid argument and fact. And making fun of the idea that without the Euro.. Europeans would soon be at each others throat again.

Foreign affairs in my view has no meaning for the EU. It is artificial because the EU is not a nation. It is a neighborhood of nations and will remain that for a very long time.

As for defense it pays off to co-operate, since we are now a EU neighborhood of pretty good ands like-minded friends. But please no "European army" under the control of some EU-parliament! It will destroy Europe. But we can fight together as allies if we have to when the commies, the us-eagles or the Islamo-fascists try to make us a battle ground.

Then Europe would have a two chamber parliament - one chamber as it now stands, and an elected senate, with equal representation for all countries. The Council would disappear, and the Commission would become the confederate government, answering to the Parliament. Presumably there would also be a President, directly elected by the peoples of Europe. Such a construction would be democratic and no country would dominate the whole, as it now happens with Germany. There would be European taxes to finance the European budget, but any European taxes would be compensated by a reduction in national taxation. No reason it wouldn't work.

Here we have fundamental disagreement. Germany dominates not because a lack of EU democracy, but because it is by far the biggest player in the Euro-zone. Smaller players that were also pushed into the Eurozone and giving up their national currency..as a consquence were turned into Euro-debt slaves. Had they not stepped into the Euro-trap (designed by banks!).. and kept their national currency instead... they could compete much easier..devaluate if necessary.. and claw back independently.

[Endovelico]

A common currency is a logical follow-up on a united economy. But it does require either a nation-by-nation trade balance (which can be achieved with adequate investment) or the willingness to make up trade deficits with wealth redistribution by means of public funds. More successful European countries were not willing to allow for either, because it would reduce their profits. And that is the real European problem: no one is willing to give up anything in order to make the Union work. This national fixation is dumb. We are tribal beyond reason. I agree with each country preserving its particular way of life, its culture, its language. But we can preserve all that and still be solidary with each other. Keeping national armed forces what for? Are the Netherlands preparing for another German invasion? I doubt the danger would come from Belgium...So why spend all that money to keep a fiction? Better to contribute to European efficient and well equipped armed forces. I'm sure you could cut the defense costs of each country by half... I'm sure eventually people will see the light, but it is taking awfully long time.

[Parodite]

A common currency is a logical follow-up on a united economy.

I would say a currency represents an economy that belongs to a socio-political unity. It is totally natural that European countries, as socio-political units, have their own currencies that operate and compete in open markets world wide. Europe is not a social-political unity and doesn't need to become one. Why?

But it does require either a nation-by-nation trade balance (which can be achieved with adequate investment) or the willingness to make up trade deficits with wealth redistribution by means of public funds.

I think manipulating, let alone trying to control trade deficits alias import/export balance sheets by shoving around trucks with money is a waste of time. Bit like trying to control climate change. Squeeze the tire here or there.. all you do is create an extra layer of noise in a complex dynamic system that cannot be controlled by anyone.

What stands as a rock though, is the need for socio-political units such as EU nations to be able to produce goods and services. National governments can only to a degree play a positive role in stimulating their economies, unfortunately they tend be in the way most of the time by allowing national deficits to grow irresponsibly, corruption, governmental overhead that only serves government and not the people they supposedly represent.. and most dangerously engage in inbreeding behavior with big financial institutions managed by criminals who love governments and citizens go into bigger and bigger debts, because our deficit is how those guys make their big money. Too big to fail and too big to go to jail of course is something they discovered is an awesome insurance policy and they will milk that cow until.. we stop them.

Instead of moving around trucks with EU money to balance national trade deficits, which is idiotic in my view, a better approach would be to reform the financial industry first, so that banks can become again responsible institutions that serve the real economy. This cannot be done without reforming the political process as well, where the inbreeding of big money and politics should end. The oligarchic siamese evil twin must be separated with a big samurai sword, preferably a political and democratic one. Lest there will be a violent revolt.

Assume the financial industry is reformed and back to responsible health. And the oligarchic siamese twin separated. And national governments once and for all decide to stay away from too big deficits. (I would make that even a constitutional obligation) Then what about the EU and wealth distribution?

My approach to wealth distribution and social issues in the EU is simple.

As in any decent society, you create a social net and a poverty line below which nobody is allowed to perish. Free of charge, free of interest, you give physical support and money where needed. I don't mind paying taxes to support other Europeans that need it badly. You don´t save somebody from drowning and later ask money for it. To do that would be tasteless to say the least, and asking interest on top would be even evil.

But when it comes to economic development, the creation of wealth, it is a different ball game. A healthy banking system that functions independently from politics (!) really can do miracles here. Any good man with a good plan - which can be an individual, a group of individuals who start a business or a co-op, or even a government - can borrow money from any healthy bank to kick-start something from scratch that can grow.. create wealth and well being, contribute to a long term productive economy.

As long as 1) governments decide to not mess up their national economies with irresponsible deficits or market interferences that don't serve anybody except bureaucrats and 2) the financial industry is reformed.. the tides of trade deficits-surpluses will just go with the flow and are not something to worry about.

[Endovelico]

Competitiveness is partially a result of an efficient labour force, but it is, first of all, a matter of accumulated investment. Less competitive countries in Europe once they fell behind in terms of investment, will have a very hard time catching up. It can only be done as a collective European exercise. But what we see is that more competitive countries refuse to assist their less developed partners, because they benefit from trade surplus which would disappear once all countries in Europe were equally competitive. The common misconception that southern European countries are less competitive because their peoples are less smart or less diligent is not proven by fact. Portuguese workers work longer hours, retire later and have less time off than their German counterparts. It is true that average schooling in Portugal is 3 years shorter than in Germany, but that is no longer significant. An industrial laborer with 9 years schooling will be as productive as one with 12 years schooling. As we have proven in Portugal by comparing productivity at the local Volkswagen factory with productivity in VW factories in Germany.

The difference is investment, and no particular superiority by northern Europeans in relation to southern Europeans. To close the gap we need more European union, not less. Because as long as individual countries can refuse the type of needed solidarity, we will not have the means to bring less developed countries to the level of their more developed partners. National sovereignty, national currencies, are only alibis to ensure dependent countries will remain dependent, and rich countries will get richer. Inequality breeds inequality so that a supranational effort must be made to break this vicious circle. Which, in fact, was so stated in the preamble to the Treaty of Rome, but was later ignored by the wealthier countries.

[Mr. Perfect]

The future of the EU, if you can call it that.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-1 ... catch-fire

#1 The unemployment rate in Greece has hit a brand new record high of 28 percent.

#2 The youth unemployment rate in Greece has hit a brand new record high of 64.1 percent.

#3 The percentage of bad loans in Italy is at an all-time record high.

#4 Italian industrial output declined again in December, and the Italian government is on the verge of collapse.

#5 The number of jobseekers in France has risen for 30 of the last 32 months, and at this point it has climbed to a new all-time record high.

#6 The total number of business failures in France in 2013 was even higher than in any year during the last financial crisis.

#7 It is being projected that housing prices in Spain will fall another 10 to 15 percent as their economic depression deepens.

#8 The economic and political turmoil in Turkey is spinning out of control. The government has resorted to blasting protesters with pepper spray and water cannons in a desperate attempt to restore order.

#9 It is being estimated that the inflation rate in Argentina is now over 40 percent, and the peso is absolutely collapsing.

#10 Gangs of armed bandits are roaming the streets in Venezuela as the economic chaos in that troubled nation continues to escalate.

#11 China appears to be very serious about deleveraging. The deflationary effects of this are going to be felt all over the planet. The following is an excerpt from Ambrose Evans-Pritchard's recent article entitled "World asleep as China tightens deflationary vice"...

China's Xi Jinping has cast the die. After weighing up the unappetising choice before him for a year, he has picked the lesser of two poisons.

The balance of evidence is that most powerful Chinese leader since Mao Zedong aims to prick China's $24 trillion credit bubble early in his 10-year term, rather than putting off the day of reckoning for yet another cycle.

This may be well-advised for China, but the rest of the world seems remarkably nonchalant over the implications.

#12 There was a significant debt default by a coal company in China last Friday...

A high-yield investment product backed by a loan to a debt-ridden coal company failed to repay investors when it matured last Friday, state media reported on Wednesday, in the latest sign of financial stress in China's shadow bank sector.

#13 Japan's Nikkei stock index has already fallen by 14 percent so far in 2014. That is a massive decline in just a month and a half.

#14 Ukraine continues to fall apart financially...

The worsening political and economic circumstances in Ukraine has prompted the Fitch Ratings agency to downgrade Ukrainian debt from B to a pre–default level CCC. This is lower than Greece, and Fitch warns of future financial instability.

#15 The unemployment rate in Australia has risen to the highest level in more than 10 years.

#16 The central bank of India is in a panic over the way that Federal Reserve tapering is effecting their financial system.

#17 The effects of Federal Reserve tapering are also being felt in Thailand...

In the wake of the US Federal Reserve tapering, emerging economies with deteriorating macroeconomic figures or visible political instability are being punished by skittish markets. Thailand is drifting towards both these tendencies.

#18 One of Ghana's most prominent economists says that the economy of Ghana will crash by June if something dramatic is not done.

#19 Yet another banker has mysteriously died during the prime years of his life. That makes five "suspicious banker deaths" in just the past two weeks alone.

#20 The behavior of the U.S. stock market continues to parallel the behavior of the U.S. stock market in 1929.