On the Nature of Things | Forum

The Kleins -- and I don't care if/when/why/how they broke the law -- let's just say they're guilty as hell.

Questions for (mostly) the progressives here: Is the fine ethical? Is the fine legal under the 8th Amendment?

Context?

An explanatory link, please.

Yukon Cornelius wrote:The Kleins -- and I don't care if/when/why/how they broke the law -- let's just say they're guilty as hell.

Questions for (mostly) the progressives here: Is the fine ethical? Is the fine legal under the 8th Amendment?

details here:

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/04/ ... dding.html

The Kleins are the Cake bakers in Oregon -- refused to provided a gay wedding cake, and have been fined $135,000 by the state and are under a gag order not to discuss their 'discrimination intentions'.

Yukon Cornelius wrote:The Kleins -- and I don't care if/when/why/how they broke the law -- let's just say they're guilty as hell.

Questions for (mostly) the progressives here: Is the fine ethical? Is the fine legal under the 8th Amendment?

It was not a federal case. Gay discrimination is illegal in Oregon, and the fine was imposed by a state agency.

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/the- ... appearance

Nonc Hilaire wrote:

Yukon Cornelius wrote:The Kleins -- and I don't care if/when/why/how they broke the law -- let's just say they're guilty as hell.

Questions for (mostly) the progressives here: Is the fine ethical? Is the fine legal under the 8th Amendment?

It was not a federal case. Gay discrimination is illegal in Oregon, and the fine was imposed by a state agency.

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/the- ... appearance

Legal (the 8th and 14th Amendments don't apply to the States) and ethical then? (I'm aware of the legal situation in OR.)

I find monetary compensation for hurt feelings problematic in any society.

On the other hand, religious beliefs were previously used to justify racial discrimination in the USA.

What would be the alternative to a monetary fine?

It's just a reference to the "excessive fines" in the 8th amendment -- in this case $135K will basically ruin these people.

**goes off the grid for the weekend**

Typhoon wrote:I find monetary compensation for hurt feelings problematic in any society.

This is larger than a problem.

On the other hand, religious beliefs were previously used to justify racial discrimination in the USA.

And? Religious beliefs were used to justify ending racial discrimination.

What would be the alternative to a monetary fine?

No fine or penalty whatsoever. Let Freedom Ring.

i would hope that the current lefty nonsense about some people being able to discriminate and others not comes to an end shortly, the mental knots they need to tie themselves in about why this is so, are absurd.

not that hopeful however, i gave up on the sanity returning to the modern west in my lifetime a long time ago, so buckle in for the ride, the stoopid is going to come on thicker and faster before the victims r us mentality has played out.

noddy wrote:i would hope that the current lefty nonsense about some people being able to discriminate and others not comes to an end shortly,

They say they are just getting started.

the mental knots they need to tie themselves in about why this is so, are absurd.

I went to great lengths to explain the natur of the Democrat. You guys didn't listen.

not that hopeful however, i gave up on the sanity returning to the modern west in my lifetime a long time ago, so buckle in for the ride, the stoopid is going to come on thicker and faster before the victims r us mentality has played out.

It's not going to play out. It's never going to stop.

yeh, im always sneeking across the pacific and voting democrat before sneeking back home and voting small business right wing.

its my secret plan to ruin the competition.

Well when the grey smocks come at least remember me and my ability to foretell such things. And my assessment that globally, nothing is more important than eradicating the Democrat Party.

noddy wrote:yeh, im always sneeking across the pacific and voting democrat before sneeking back home and voting small business right wing.

its my secret plan to ruin the competition.

Indeed.

noddy wrote:i would hope that the current lefty nonsense about some people being able to discriminate and others not comes to an end shortly, the mental knots they need to tie themselves in about why this is so, are absurd.

not that hopeful however, i gave up on the sanity returning to the modern west in my lifetime a long time ago, so buckle in for the ride, the stoopid is going to come on thicker and faster before the victims r us mentality has played out.

True nuff. Orwell wrote about "thought crimes" in the novel 1984 waaaaaay back in 1948. It took until the late 1980's (IIRC) for the US to go off the deep end in regard to recognizing "hate crimes." Are "hate crimes" "thought crimes" or "emotion crimes" in Orwell speak?

The hierarchy of victim status will no doubt always be a subject of debate since it will reflect local, ever changing, emotions.

noddy wrote:yeh, im always sneeking across the pacific and voting democrat before sneeking back home and voting small business right wing.

its my secret plan to ruin the competition.

Ah Ha!

So "we" really aren't as stupid as we appear to be....... "they" are pretending to agree with our superior ideology and hastening our self-destruction by acting like those of "us" who are convinced that our ideas will actually work. Including the imposters, there are just too many of "us" and the cow is getting milked to death.

The victims at the front of the line get a fat juicy teat and those at the back of the line get dick! Which is why the definitions of "victim" are always in flux.

This splains damn near everything.

BTW the main reason I became a Republican and a genetically programmed destroyer of leftists and Democrats sworn unto the 7th generation is the Democrats did something exactly like this to my family, not once but twice, destroying my father financially, long before anyone heard of a "Legal defense fund".

Democrats are capable of great evil. I learned fist hand they do not have an empathetic cell in their bodies and will happily watch human beings starve to satisfy their ideological dogmas.

Mr. Perfect wrote:BTW the main reason I became a Republican ....

Mr P,

That's an interesting notion. I have never thought of a person 'becoming' a Republican or a conservative. My experience of such folks is that its hard wired in the brain and heart. In Michelangelo Antonioni's film 'Beyond the Clouds', his main character says "I fear that we are irredeemably ourselves from the moment we are born."

This is not to say that a person can never change to some extent or in some way. The romantic story "A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens does have Scrooge seeing the light after nocturnal visitations. However, I don't think this is a realistic tale. The road to Damascus is less travelled IMHO.

Alex.

Alex,

I have seen many instances of people changing at least their "professed beliefs" based on local culture/peer pressure. Behavioral change is much different.

The person who lives in Rochester, NY and thinks NYCers area bunch of loons, moves to NYC and after a few months "suddenly" understands why NYC ideology is locally appropriate, and thinks maybe the Rochesterians are looney. Upon moving back, the pendulum swings back to the earlier position.

A democrat or a republican in NY, or NC, or ND are very different beasts. Same with 20somethings, and 40somethings, and 60somethings who identify as the same ______. Usually for good reason.

You should hear the change in opinions of the Europeans, regarding the US, over the course of 18 months, who come here for long term work assignments.

Subjectivity at it's finest. It's what humans do.

Cheers!

No discrimination against same-sex marriages policies are going to cost these folks more than $135k.

http://www.safeguardguaranty.com

manolo wrote: Mr P,

That's an interesting notion. I have never thought of a person 'becoming' a Republican or a conservative.

It happens all the time. Between the ages of 26 and 40.

My experience of such folks is that its hard wired in the brain and heart. In Michelangelo Antonioni's film 'Beyond the Clouds', his main character says "I fear that we are irredeemably ourselves from the moment we are born."

I don't really put any weight into movie scripts. It's fiction.

Hmmm... Nonc says the 8th Amendment (14th Amendment??) doesn't apply to States -- not sure about the reasoning there -- anyone else think this fine conflicts with the 8th Amendment?

Oregon, you have to love the place.

Exercise your right to refuse service, you get slapped with a confiscatory fine and your name all over the internet.

Wipe out 50,000 honeybees because you couldn't be bothered to read the label on a pesticide container and: no charges civil or criminal are brought and your name never appears on a police blotter, in the media, or on the internet.

Yukon Cornelius wrote:Hmmm... Nonc says the 8th Amendment (14th Amendment??) doesn't apply to States -- not sure about the reasoning there -- anyone else think this fine conflicts with the 8th Amendment?

I'm just the messenger here. I thought LegalZoom had a decent explanation of the logic. I imagine there will be an appeal of some sort.

Nonc Hilaire wrote:

Yukon Cornelius wrote:Hmmm... Nonc says the 8th Amendment (14th Amendment??) doesn't apply to States -- not sure about the reasoning there -- anyone else think this fine conflicts with the 8th Amendment?

I'm just the messenger here. I thought LegalZoom had a decent explanation of the logic. I imagine there will be an appeal of some sort.

That's what I'm confused about -- my vast legal Wikipedia relaying skills seem indicate that the 8th has been applied to the states through the 14th amendment. ??