The End of the Electoral College

[Enki]

http://www.fairvote.org/national-popula ... vz6B9QgejN

[AzariLoveIran]

http://www.fairvote.org/national-popula ... vz6B9QgejN


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this good news

ridiculous calling Ahmadinejat a regime when no American president last 100 yrs got even 50% popular vote

in democratic sense, they were all illegitimate


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[Mr. Perfect]

Azari, where did you get no President got more than 50%?

Azari, electoral college going nowhere, working great, will never be repealed.

It has saved us from many tyrannies.

[crashtech]

Not this crap again.

[Enki]

Not this crap again.

You don't think small states should have a say in electing the President? Better that the President be decided by a handful of large states?

Hopefully soon we won't have to deal with it anymore and the electoral college will be no more.

[crashtech]

Not this crap again.

You don't think small states should have a say in electing the President?

Yes, I do. That's why I want to preserve the Electoral College, to guard against the tyranny of the majority, particularly the majority embodied in large urban centers.

[AzariLoveIran]

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Azari, where did you get no President got more than 50% ?

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MP,

I follow American presidential election since Eisenhower

but

a simple google search would give you each winning presidents popular vote

Bush won with 47.87% of popular vote (Gore had 48.38% of popular vote)


I might be mistake, but am not aware of any president getting over 50% popular vote .. if you are, please say

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Azari, electoral college going nowhere, working great, will never be repealed.

It has saved us from many tyrannies.

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like saying Khomeini appointing presidents saved Iran from many tyrannies

Look, MP

am not sure you aware of what you saying

how can a leader represent less than half of population and still feel legitimate ?

in parliamentary system, if a faction is below 50%, must go into coalition

not so in America

look , there is zero doubt that in American election lots of fraught, the black vote is fraudulently not counted, you know Florida episode

Bush says he won with 47% .. and .. lots of Florida Blacks could not vote or were not counted

meaning Bush probably won even with less than 47%

Yes, America agreed on "electoral college" .. but agreeing does not make it democratic .. one could agree electing president flipping a coin, is it democratic

poor Ahmadinejat

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[Mr. Perfect]

Azari, someone slipped you some bad info somewhere.

Lots and lots of Presidents, 50% or better. Lots.

http://www.usconstitution.net/elections.html

Note that Bill Clinton never got above 50%, GWB did, so maybe we can agree that Bill Clinton not exactly legitimate President.

However, you will note that top vote getter always wins except a couple of times in our whole history.

Our problem is that we need a run off system, that is not the electoral college's fault. I am open to a runoff system, but we must keep our precious electoral college, very important to American Republic. Very American.

[Enki]

Not this crap again.

You don't think small states should have a say in electing the President?

Yes, I do. That's why I want to preserve the Electoral College, to guard against the tyranny of the majority, particularly the majority embodied in large urban centers.

But that's not how it actually works. Elections are decided by Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida, three of the top ten most populous states.

[AzariLoveIran]

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Azari, someone slipped you some bad info somewhere.

Lots and lots of Presidents, 50% or better. Lots.

http://www.usconstitution.net/elections.html

Note that Bill Clinton never got above 50%, GWB did, so maybe we can agree that Bill Clinton not exactly legitimate President.

However, you will note that top vote getter always wins except a couple of times in our whole history.

Our problem is that we need a run off system, that is not the electoral college's fault. I am open to a runoff system, but we must keep our precious electoral college, very important to American Republic. Very American.

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Hmmmm

well , MP, you got me pants down

interesting

a few interesting points

1968 Nixon wins with only 43.4% PV .. 1972 with 60.6%
and we know the story with Nixon 2nd win

1992 & 1996 Clinton won with less than majority PV

run off good idea .. IMO presdinent need 55%+ , preferably 60% to be legitimate

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[Nonc Hilaire]

First, I would like honest voting. Then we can puzzle out what works about the electoral college and what doesn't.

http://blackboxvoting.org/

[Mr. Perfect]

But that's not how it actually works. Elections are decided by Ohio, Pennsylvania and Florida, three of the top ten most populous states.

No, Potus elections are decided by swing states, sometimes they are larger, but not always.

California and NY are largely neutralized from disproportionate influence on the EC outcome. The small states are protected because CA and NY do not have disproportionate influence.

The Senate gives disproportionate power to small states, the House gives huge power to the large states. The electoral college gives power to the medium states.

It works great and it will not change. The only thing I would change is going to a run off system. That is our only systematic problem, pretty much.

[crashtech]

I'm happy with the way the Electoral College balances the traits of a Democracy with that of a Republic. I believe opposition to our venerable system of choosing our President comes mainly from ignorance, except when it is due to an ulterior motive. I do not believe Enki is ignorant.

[Azrael]

Not this crap again.

You don't think small states should have a say in electing the President?

Yes, I do. That's why I want to preserve the Electoral College, to guard against the tyranny of the majority, particularly the majority embodied in large urban centers.

But with majority vote, a vote is a vote, no matter whether you live in Los Angeles or Van Tassell, Wyoming. Why should a vote in Iowa or Wyoming be worth more than a vote in California or Texas? That isn't democratic.

[Azrael]

I'm happy with the way the Electoral College balances the traits of a Democracy with that of a Republic. I believe opposition to our venerable system of choosing our President comes mainly from ignorance, except when it is due to an ulterior motive.

An ulterior motive like one adult, one vote?

I do not believe Enki is ignorant.

Neither do I.

[Mr. Perfect]

Because people in California can influence the POTUS to transfer *fill in the blank* waste to North Dakota if they wanted to, violating the rights of North Dakotans, in so many words.

This has been going on for over two centuries, it is deeply American and I cannot conceive of the opposition to it, at all.

[Azrael]

Azari, where did you get no President got more than 50%?

Azari, electoral college going nowhere, working great, will never be repealed.

It has saved us from many tyrannies.

Many tyrannies? What are you talking about? Did Lyndon Larouche win the popular vote some time I didn't hear about?

[Mr. Perfect]

Tyrannies like a President kowtowing to large population cneters at the expense of small population centers.

[Azrael]

Because people in California can influence the POTUS to transfer *fill in the blank* waste to North Dakota if they wanted to, violating the rights of North Dakotans, in so many words.

What do you mean? That doesn't make sense.

This has been going on for over two centuries, it is deeply American and I cannot conceive of the opposition to it, at all.

People used to say the same thing about slavery and burning witches.

[Azrael]

Tyrannies like a President kowtowing to large population cneters at the expense of small population centers.

That must be why so many tens of billions of dollars are spent on agricultural subsidies.

[Azrael]

First, I would like honest voting.

Same here. It would have saved us eight years of Bush, the Iraq War, possibly 9-11, and I doubt Gore would have let Bin Laden escape at Tora Bora.

Then we can puzzle out what works about the electoral college and what doesn't.

Fair enough.

[Mr. Perfect]

Tyrannies like a President kowtowing to large population cneters at the expense of small population centers.

That must be why so many tens of billions of dollars are spent on agricultural subsidies.

Could be worse.

Azrael, are you unaware of the founders purposes behind the electoral college and the senate?

[Azrael]

Tyrannies like a President kowtowing to large population cneters at the expense of small population centers.

That must be why so many tens of billions of dollars are spent on agricultural subsidies.

Could be worse.

Azrael, are you unaware of the founders purposes behind the electoral college and the senate?

I am very aware. Back then the population ratio between the most populous state and the least populous was much, much smaller.

[Mr. Perfect]

And that is relevant how?

Based on your knowledge of the founder's intent, what is it in principle that you disagree with them over?

[Azrael]

And that is relevant how?

Because the balance between the interests of the residents of the more populous states and the less populous states has tilted a great deal over time toward the interests of the residents of the less populous states, causing one side to dominate, when the point of the original arrangement was for there to be balance.

Based on your knowledge of the founder's intent, what is it in principle that you disagree with them over?

I don't disagree with the founder's intent. You do. I doubt they would consider the present system, where, in a Presidential election, the vote of someone from Wyoming counts as much as the votes as four people from California, democratic. Back then, having a state with only one one thousandth of the population have the same number of senators as a state with one tenth would be considered absurd.