Seattle Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson espoused about his Christian faith in a recent documentary entitled “The Making of a Champion.”
In the video, Wilson, 24, describes how he found God at the age of 14.
“I had a dream that my dad passed away and that Jesus came into the room and he was basically knocking on my door, saying, ‘Hey, you need to find out more about me,’” Wilson said. “So that Sunday morning I ended up going to church and that’s when I got saved.”.
Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
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Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Atheists, unfortunately, have absolutely no weapon to overcome this. God in the end and not surprisingly has the trump cards.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Those experiences are not transferrable to another person.
One might argue that it is cruel to throw such experiences in the faces of people who have never been approached by the divine spirit in such a manner.
One might argue that it is cruel to throw such experiences in the faces of people who have never been approached by the divine spirit in such a manner.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
True, no argument there. However they seem to just keep happening.Enki wrote:Those experiences are not transferrable to another person.
Could be. Nobody said life was fair.One might argue that it is cruel to throw such experiences in the faces of people who have never been approached by the divine spirit in such a manner.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Mr. Perfect wrote: True, no argument there. However they seem to just keep happening.
Yeah, but as the King said, "Don't be cruel."Could be. Nobody said life was fair.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
The real King said don't hide your light under a bushel, and don't be hatin' (covetous, jealous).
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
True, but testimony doesn't have to turn Jesus to the inside of John Malkovich's head when inhabited by Malkovich.Mr. Perfect wrote:The real King said don't hide your light under a bushel, and don't be hatin' (covetous, jealous).
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
-Alexander Hamilton
Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.
personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.
is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?
personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.
is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?
ultracrepidarian
Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Sure, if you don't know what you experienced, that is honest.noddy wrote:not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.
personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.
is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?
Getting mad at people for not experiencing your faith is for the faithless who pretend they have faith.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
-Alexander Hamilton
-Alexander Hamilton
Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
im mostly (tm) sure i know what i experienced.Enki wrote:Sure, if you don't know what you experienced, that is honest.noddy wrote:not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.
personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.
is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?
Getting mad at people for not experiencing your faith is for the faithless who pretend they have faith.
ultracrepidarian
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Well the point is that atheists seem to think that if they can give rational explanations for the universe then Santa Claus will just fade out. The problem is that one big reason that Santa Claus has a following is that a whole lot of people all on their own think they've "seen" him first hand. Hard to explain that one away. I'd love to watch a convo between Zack Morris and this guy, I know who's going to win.noddy wrote:not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.
As Simple Minded would say it would be fun to watch.personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.
is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
as i rule i dont really get into the atheist vs theist stuff much and the big reason for that is most of the christians in my family and life have been the very dry protestant flavours that dont have much time for god bothering and anthropomorphised interpretations.
as such, when they use the word "god" and i use the word "reality" its sometimes difficult to seperate the intended meanings and usages.
combine that with the modern "spiritual athiest" and the "cultural christian" and it all gets rather messy indeed.
as such, when they use the word "god" and i use the word "reality" its sometimes difficult to seperate the intended meanings and usages.
combine that with the modern "spiritual athiest" and the "cultural christian" and it all gets rather messy indeed.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
My "epiphany" came when I realized that if God does exist He for sure can't be the half-wit criminally insane entity most religions make Him appear... Creating God to our image doesn't make Him seem very plausible...
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
The problem though is that when you have an experience like this the intellectualizing seen here goes straight out the window and you have to deal with your new reality. Most of these issues become dead settled and you never think about them again, you just think in terms of the God of the Bible or whatever being as real as your own body. And I'm not sure what an atheist does with that.
And these things just keep happening without any central planning.
And these things just keep happening without any central planning.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
As the REAL King said, (paraphrased), "Don't be cruel."
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
It's a poo witness. If I get all the personal interactions with Ganesh all together, is anybody going to convert to Hinduism when they read it?
Only appeals to "Jesus is my boyfriend" types.
Only appeals to "Jesus is my boyfriend" types.
Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
There's a flawed implicit assumption here: that atheists have an obligation to proselytize just as some religions do.Mr. Perfect wrote:Atheists, unfortunately, have absolutely no weapon to overcome this. God in the end and not surprisingly has the trump cards.
Seattle Seahawks quarterback Russell Wilson espoused about his Christian faith in a recent documentary entitled “The Making of a Champion.”
In the video, Wilson, 24, describes how he found God at the age of 14.
“I had a dream that my dad passed away and that Jesus came into the room and he was basically knocking on my door, saying, ‘Hey, you need to find out more about me,’” Wilson said. “So that Sunday morning I ended up going to church and that’s when I got saved.”.
Of course, there are some atheists that take an activist stand against religion, however, most would simply prefer not to be bothered by religious proselytizers and intolerant fanatics.
It's probably a good thing that not everyone bases their actions on their dreams.
If I took action with regards to some of the dreams that I recall, then I would be on the most-wanted list in a number of countries.
Anyways, it will probably take more than dreams to reverse the global trend towards atheism.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Enki wrote:Sure, if you don't know what you experienced, that is honest.noddy wrote:not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.
personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.
is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?
Getting mad at people for not experiencing your faith is for the faithless who pretend they have faith.
Quite.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Good thing no one is doing that in this thread.Typhoon wrote:Enki wrote: Sure, if you don't know what you experienced, that is honest.
Getting mad at people for not experiencing your faith is for the faithless who pretend they have faith.
Quite.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
No there isn't. There is an explicit assumption in this thread.Typhoon wrote: There's a flawed implicit assumption here:
Yet many will go ahead and try to proselytize without any obligation.that atheists have an obligation to proselytize just as some religions do.
Yup, that's who we're talking about.Of course, there are some atheists that take an activist stand against religion,
Citation needed.however, most would simply prefer not to be bothered by religious proselytizers and intolerant fanatics.
Yeah, that really is not the point of this thread, or the subject. The subject being as I noted earlier, atheist proselytes like say Zack Morris or Richard Dawkings who are dead set in convincing people there is no Santa Claus and they seem really dead set to ignore the many, many, many followers of Santa Claus who believe in him based on what we might call first hand experience. I'm still waiting to see them try to convince people they haven't experienced what they experienced. So far I've only seem some stuff on brain scans.It's probably a good thing that not everyone bases their actions on their dreams.
If I took action with regards to some of the dreams that I recall, then I would be on the most-wanted list in a number of countries.
What people dream is really out of the hands of central planners, which speaks to the subject of this thread.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Being religious, in the way most people are, is just another sign of how underdeveloped we still are. We moved out of the caves barely 10,000 years ago, invented writing some 5,000 years ago, discovered the Earth wasn't flat - or some Greeks did - some 2,500 years ago, found out that the Earth went around the Sun, and not the other way around, a couple of hundred years ago. We struggle to survive for about seventy years, are only now discovering the essentials of biology and genetics, as well as astronomy and cosmogony. Comparatively, we are now barely discovering how to spell, but we have discovered the wondrous existence of God, and have set down, in detail, everything God is and wants from us, and why... God has communicated with us through the most diverse people who have given us the most disparate doctrines and guidelines, presumably to confuse us... God is a well-known sadist who enjoys confusing us and setting us against each other...
I don't know whether God exists, if He created the universe or whether the universe will end up creating Him. But the nonsense people speak about God is sufficient to make anyone an avowed atheist...
I don't know whether God exists, if He created the universe or whether the universe will end up creating Him. But the nonsense people speak about God is sufficient to make anyone an avowed atheist...
Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Probably true, but can you slap a label on it and market it?noddy wrote:im mostly (tm) sure i know what i experienced.Enki wrote:Sure, if you don't know what you experienced, that is honest.noddy wrote:not sure the losing your faith, finding your faith examples mean much to the wider public - plenty of examples of both to be found for those that wish to push one or the other.
personally, my moment of faith was being part of a complex family group with all sorts of different faiths in it and being unable to even grok anyone of them being the single way of looking at life.
is it possible to have agnostic mystical experiences ?
Getting mad at people for not experiencing your faith is for the faithless who pretend they have faith.
My brand X gets your soul 30% cleaner than your brand Y!
Send $59.95 or three easy payments of $20 to......
Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Indeed.Endovelico wrote:Being religious, in the way most people are, is just another sign of how underdeveloped we still are. We moved out of the caves barely 10,000 years ago, invented writing some 5,000 years ago, discovered the Earth wasn't flat - or some Greeks did - some 2,500 years ago, found out that the Earth went around the Sun, and not the other way around, a couple of hundred years ago. We struggle to survive for about seventy years, are only now discovering the essentials of biology and genetics, as well as astronomy and cosmogony. Comparatively, we are now barely discovering how to spell, but we have discovered the wondrous existence of God, and have set down, in detail, everything God is and wants from us, and why... God has communicated with us through the most diverse people who have given us the most disparate doctrines and guidelines, presumably to confuse us... God is a well-known sadist who enjoys confusing us and setting us against each other...
I don't know whether God exists, if He created the universe or whether the universe will end up creating Him. But the nonsense people speak about God is sufficient to make anyone an avowed atheist...
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Many? Citation please.Mr. Perfect wrote:No there isn't. There is an explicit assumption in this thread.Typhoon wrote: There's a flawed implicit assumption here:
Yet many will go ahead and try to proselytize without any obligation.that atheists have an obligation to proselytize just as some religions do.
Japan is probably the most secular industrialized nation.Mr. Perfect wrote:Yup, that's who we're talking about.Of course, there are some atheists that take an activist stand against religion,
Citation needed.however, most would simply prefer not to be bothered by religious proselytizers and intolerant fanatics.
One's religious beliefs or lack thereof are regarded to be a private matter.
For example, whether one is a atheist/agnostic/bhuddist/shintoist/christian is not a factor in holding a senior political office.
On the other hand, R. Dawkins should not be prevented from expressing his views, no matter how unpopular with some.Mr. Perfect wrote:Yeah, that really is not the point of this thread, or the subject. The subject being as I noted earlier, atheist proselytes like say Zack Morris or Richard Dawkings who are dead set in convincing people there is no Santa Claus and they seem really dead set to ignore the many, many, many followers of Santa Claus who believe in him based on what we might call first hand experience. I'm still waiting to see them try to convince people they haven't experienced what they experienced. So far I've only seem some stuff on brain scans.It's probably a good thing that not everyone bases their actions on their dreams.
If I took action with regards to some of the dreams that I recall, then I would be on the most-wanted list in a number of countries.
As for the brain [structural MRI] scan stuff, I would take it with a large grain of salt as it's only a correlation result between brain structure and self-described levels of religiousity for a small sample size.
The perception that the religious are subject to persecution, esp by a cabal of central planners, in the US is nothing if not amusing.Mr. Perfect wrote:Mr. Perfect wrote:What people dream is really out of the hands of central planners, which speaks to the subject of this thread.
May the gods preserve and defend me from self-righteous altruists; I can defend myself from my enemies and my friends.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
Is there perhaps another thread for this.Endovelico wrote:Being religious, in the way most people are, is just another sign of how underdeveloped we still are. We moved out of the caves barely 10,000 years ago, invented writing some 5,000 years ago, discovered the Earth wasn't flat - or some Greeks did - some 2,500 years ago, found out that the Earth went around the Sun, and not the other way around, a couple of hundred years ago. We struggle to survive for about seventy years, are only now discovering the essentials of biology and genetics, as well as astronomy and cosmogony. Comparatively, we are now barely discovering how to spell, but we have discovered the wondrous existence of God, and have set down, in detail, everything God is and wants from us, and why... God has communicated with us through the most diverse people who have given us the most disparate doctrines and guidelines, presumably to confuse us... God is a well-known sadist who enjoys confusing us and setting us against each other...
I don't know whether God exists, if He created the universe or whether the universe will end up creating Him. But the nonsense people speak about God is sufficient to make anyone an avowed atheist...
The subject of this thread is, for anyone who may be legitimately confused, manifestations of the divine that happen to individual people. Not whether religions are dumb or smart, or what you may think of the bible or whatever, but very specifically a huge portion of human beings believe they have had firsthand interaction with the divine, and however dumb you think religion does not speak to this phenomenon.
In this case a young man without anybody suggesting anything to him believes he had a vision of Jesus, and it changed his life, and my guess is the arguments put forth by endo or anyone else here wouldn't even scratch this persons belief concerning what happened to him.
I hope this clears things up.
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Re: Another Joseph Smith; a problem for atheism
You first.Typhoon wrote: Many? Citation please.
Ok. What does that have to do with the OP.Mr. Perfect wrote: Japan is probably the most secular industrialized nation.
One's religious beliefs or lack thereof are regarded to be a private matter.
For example, whether one is a atheist/agnostic/bhuddist/shintoist/christian is not a factor in holding a senior political office.
Is someone suggesting otherwise.On the other hand, R. Dawkins should not be prevented from expressing his views, no matter how unpopular with some.
I agree with that.As for the brain [structural MRI] scan stuff, I would take it with a large grain of salt as it's only a correlation result between brain structure and self-described levels of religiousity for a small sample size.
You got to anticipate.The perception that the religious are subject to persecution, esp by a cabal of central planners, in the US is nothing if not amusing.
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