Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

Simple Minded

Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

Post by Simple Minded »

manolo wrote:Folks,

It's not unusual for a split - off from a major party to break up the vote and let the opposition in. One of the beauties of democracy. :)

Alex.
True enough Alex. The binoid mindset is strong in America. Many don't care about the specific players, but the analogy of sports team affiliation, NFL or AFL is applicable.

It is also a lot like applying for a job, both establishment parties are comfortable knowing there is only one other applicant. Makes it easier to play the "I may not be exceptionally competent or honest.... but the other guy is worse" game.

The creation of another 4 or 5 parties simultaneously just might indicate the level of dissatisfaction that exists with both parties in the US.

In terms of analogous indicators of what happened, imagine Brussels taking over healthcare in the all EU nations.

I think ACA will prove to be our EU or Euro moment.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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Simple Minded wrote: True enough Alex. The binoid mindset is strong in America. Many don't care about the specific players, but the analogy of sports team affiliation, NFL or AFL is applicable.

It is also a lot like applying for a job, both establishment parties are comfortable knowing there is only one other applicant. Makes it easier to play the "I may not be exceptionally competent or honest.... but the other guy is worse" game.

The creation of another 4 or 5 parties simultaneously just might indicate the level of dissatisfaction that exists with both parties in the US.

In terms of analogous indicators of what happened, imagine Brussels taking over healthcare in the all EU nations.

I think ACA will prove to be our EU or Euro moment.
I think dividing people into binoid vs non-binoid is just another ironic us vs them false binary choice (them binoids are the problem if we could only get rid of them) when the reality is more complex.

Interestingly, intellectually this is your achilles heel and I believe Freud correctly picked out your name for you, when the calculations get to be too difficult your mind runs home to the herd and the waves, *I can't help it it;s the herd it can;t be helped I can only watch it is fun to watch* etc.

The reality is that some choices indeed are binary and some are not, the decision to have a child the decision to go to college, whether or not you are pregnant etc, renting or owning, many of our choices are binary. Many of our choices are not binary also.

Squeamish people fear the binary choice because it is so revelatory and exposing and forces people to take stands which leads to fears of failure and embarrassment and removes the ability hedge found in non binary choices. Binary choices require courage.

Politics is a binary business because in the end you can usually only be for or against a certain proposal, abstaining is often defacto support for one side or the other depending and so of course isn't an escape hatch. As a result we end up with two parties since it is the most efficient way of dealing with this problem, the spineless appeal to 3 and 4 parties as a last ditch attempt at avoiding conflict but as we see all around the world that 3-6 party systems form alliances and function identically to 2 party systems.

There is quite a lot of literature on "Natural rights/human nature", realpolitic, etc, for a reason.
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Enki
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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LOL at Leftist cruelty. Watching Mr. Perfect become a populist after years of 'let them eat cake'. The left wants to provide the poor with a safety net while the right fights to defend low wages and defund welfare. I am creating jobs, unlike Mr.P with his FIRE vocation.

I don't have the cruelty to be right wing and constantly vote against the interests of the poor then have the hypocritical temerity to pretend to be a man of the people when really all I care about is lowering my tax burden.

More people will be insured and we are about to hit an economic boom.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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We are going to hit an economic boom, but I think it will be a Marvin the Martian type boom and not an Adam Smith type boom.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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Enki wrote:LOL at Leftist cruelty. Watching Mr. Perfect become a populist after years of 'let them eat cake'. The left wants to provide the poor with a safety net while the right fights to defend low wages and defund welfare. I am creating jobs, unlike Mr.P with his FIRE vocation.

I don't have the cruelty to be right wing and constantly vote against the interests of the poor then have the hypocritical temerity to pretend to be a man of the people when really all I care about is lowering my tax burden.

More people will be insured and we are about to hit an economic boom.
Promises Promises
IF you like your Health insurance plan you can keep it Period If you like your doctor you can keep him Period !!
http://www.propublica.org/article/loyal ... -obamacare
Loyal Obama Supporters, Canceled by Obamacare

by Charles Ornstein
ProPublica, Nov. 6, 2013, 9:57 a.m.

Lee Hammack and his wife JoEllen Brothers (Photo courtesy of Lee Hammack)

San Francisco architect Lee Hammack says he and his wife, JoEllen Brothers, are “cradle Democrats.” They have donated to the liberal group Organizing for America and worked the phone banks a year ago for President Obama’s re-election.

Since 1995, Hammack and Brothers have received their health coverage from Kaiser Permanente, where Brothers worked until 2009 as a dietitian and diabetes educator. “We’ve both been in very good health all of our lives – exercise, don’t smoke, drink lightly, healthy weight, no health issues, and so on,” Hammack told me.

The couple — Lee, 60, and JoEllen, 59 — have been paying $550 a month for their health coverage — a plan that offers solid coverage, not one of the skimpy plans Obama has criticized. But recently, Kaiser informed them the plan would be canceled at the end of the year because it did not meet the requirements of the Affordable Care Act. The couple would need to find another one. The cost would be around double what they pay now, but the benefits would be worse.

“From all of the sob stories I’ve heard and read, ours is the most extreme,” Lee told me in an email last week.

I’ve been skeptical about media stories featuring those who claimed they would be worse off because their insurance policies were being canceled on account of the ACA. In many cases, it turns out, the consumers could have found cheaper coverage through the new health insurance marketplaces, or their plans weren’t very good to begin with. Some didn’t know they could qualify for subsidies that would lower their insurance premiums.

So I tried to find flaws in what Hammack told me. I couldn’t find any.

The couple’s existing Kaiser plan was a good one.
Their new options were indeed more expensive, and the benefits didn’t seem any better.
They do not qualify for premium subsidies because they make more than four times the federal poverty level, though Hammack says not by much.

Hammack recalled his reaction when he and his wife received a letters from Kaiser in September informing him their coverage was being canceled. “I work downstairs and my wife had a clear look of shock on her face,” he said. “Our first reaction was clearly there’s got to be some mistake. This was before the exchanges opened up. We quickly calmed down. We were confident that this would all be straightened out. But it wasn’t.”
.
I asked Hammack to send me details of his current plan. It carried a $4,000 deductible per person, a $40 copay for doctor visits, a $150 emergency room visit fee and 30 percent coinsurance for hospital stays after the deductible. The out-of-pocket maximum was $5,600.

This plan was ending, Kaiser’s letters told them, because it did not meet the requirements of the Affordable Care Act. “Everything is taken care of,” the letters said. “There’s nothing you need to do.”

The letters said the couple would be enrolled in new Kaiser plans that would cost nearly $1,300 a month for the two of them (more than $15,000 a year).

And for that higher amount, what would they get? A higher deductible ($4,500), a higher out-of-pocket maximum ($6,350), higher hospital costs (40 percent of the cost) and possibly higher costs for doctor visits and drugs.

When they shopped around and looked for a different plan on California's new health insurance marketplace, Covered California, the cheapest one was $975, with hefty deductibles and copays.

In a speech in Boston last week, President Obama said those receiving cancellation letters didn’t have good insurance. “There are a number of Americans — fewer than 5 percent of Americans — who've got cut-rate plans that don’t offer real financial protection in the event of a serious illness or an accident,” he said.

Remember, before the Affordable Care Act, these bad-apple insurers had free rein every single year to limit the care that you received, or use minor preexisting conditions to jack up your premiums or bill you into bankruptcy. So a lot of people thought they were buying coverage, and it turned out not to be so good.”

What is going on here? Kaiser isn’t a “bad apple” insurer and this plan wasn’t “cut rate.” It seems like this is a lose-lose for the Hammacks (and a friend featured in a report last month by the public radio station KQED.)


I called Kaiser Permanente and spoke to spokesman Chris Stenrud, who used to work for the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. He told me that this was indeed a good plan. Patients in the plan, known as 40/4000, were remarkably healthy, had low medical costs and had not seen their premiums increase in years. “Our actuaries still aren’t entirely sure why that was,” he said.

While many other insurance companies offered skimpier benefits, Stenrud said, “our plans historically have been comprehensive.”

Kaiser has canceled about 160,000 policies in California, and about one third of people were in plans like Hammack’s, Stenrud said. About 30,000 to 35,000 were in his specific plan.

“In a few cases, we are able to find coverage for them that is less expensive, but in most cases, we’re not because, in sort of pure economic terms, they are people who benefited from the current system ... Now that the market rules are changing, there will be different people who benefit and different people who don’t.”

“There’s an aspect of market disruption here that I think was not clear to people,” Stenrud acknowledged. “In many respects it has been theory rather than practice for the first three years of the law; folks are seeing the breadth of change that we’re talking about here.”

That’s little comfort to Hammack. He’s written to California’s senators and his representative, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., asking for help.

“We believe that the Act is good for health care, the economy, & the future of our nation. However, ACA options for middle income individuals ages 59 & 60 are unaffordable. We’re learning that many others are similarly affected. In that spirit we ask that you fix this, for all of our sakes,” he and Brothers wrote.

Consumer advocate Anthony Wright said it’s important to remember the way the insurance market worked before the act was passed, when insurers could deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions. “It’s impossible to know what the world would have looked like for these folks in the absence of the law,” said Wright, executive director of the group Health Access.

“We certainly had an individual market, especially in California which was the Wild Wild West, where there was huge price increases, cancellations, a range of other practices.

“That doesn't mean that there were certain people who lucked out in the old system, who wound up in a group with a relatively healthy risk mix and thus lower premiums,” he added. “The question is: Is health insurance something where people get a rate based on the luck of the draw or do we have something where we have some standards where people who live in the same community, of the same age, with the same benefit package are treated equally?”

Wright said discussions should focus on how to provide consumers like Hammack with assistance if they barely miss qualifying for subsidies.

So what is Hammack going to do? If his income were to fall below four times the federal poverty level, or about $62,000 for a family of two, he would qualify for subsidies that could lower his premium cost to as low as zero. If he makes even one dollar more, he gets nothing.

That’s what he’s leaning toward — lowering his salary or shifting more money toward a retirement account and applying for a subsidy.

“We’re not changing our views because of this situation, but it hurt to hear Obama saying, just the other day, that if our plan has been dropped it’s because it wasn’t any good, and our costs would go up only slightly,” he said. “We’re gratified that the press is on the case, but frustrated that the stewards of the ACA don’t seem to have heard.”
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Enki
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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Yeah, anyone that believed the hype about Obamacare on either side is a fool. I was pretty skeptical about it from the beginning. So far it hasn't screwed that many people that I know.
Men often oppose a thing merely because they have had no agency in planning it, or because it may have been planned by those whom they dislike.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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Enki wrote:Yeah, anyone that believed the hype about Obamacare on either side is a fool. I was pretty skeptical about it from the beginning. So far it hasn't screwed that many people that I know.
On the contrary it has screwed most every one you know. Either screwed their politics or screwed the economy in ways that have not hit yet. During the coming year as people realize they are going to have to pay 100's more permonth to pay for health care that is not as good as what they already had do you suppose they are going to 1)Go on a spending spree. 2) spend the same amount 3) spend less. The left was making a big deal about a made up number $24 billion lost to the economy. That is chump change compared to what is coming. IE Left wing political Ideology is finished in this country for at least a generation. Its a done deal. Or does Alinsky have a rule for the White House Pooch being pregnant? Perhaps something to do with re-education camps?
"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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Enki wrote:Yeah, anyone that believed the hype about Obamacare on either side is a fool. I was pretty skeptical about it from the beginning.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I have all the posts.
So far it hasn't screwed that many people that I know.
You've always been insular. It's destroying many lives and it hasn't even gotten started yet of course you don't care.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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Enki wrote:LOL at Leftist cruelty. Watching Mr. Perfect become a populist after years of 'let them eat cake'.
Actually as you never listened my message has always been "everyone is capable of getting their own cake, just let them".
The left wants to provide the poor with a safety net
And yet the left has created record levels of poverty why is that do you think in your own words. I know you don't follow politics or current events but let me know your thots.
while the right fights to defend low wages and defund welfare.

Actually insolvent states will defund welfare more than any Republican can ever dream of.
I am creating jobs, unlike Mr.P with his FIRE vocation.
I've fired more people than you will ever hire.
I don't have the cruelty to be right wing and constantly vote against the interests of the poor
How come the poor did so much better under Republicans than Democrats I have an answer if you can't think of one, you record poverty setting Democrat you. You gave all the money to the 1% and none to the poor, do you know why I know why and will tell everyone when you don't. You don't give one rip about the poor, you've actively destroyed their lives.
then have the hypocritical temerity to pretend to be a man of the people when really all I care about is lowering my tax burden.
Lowering my tax burden helps all the people.
More people will be insured and we are about to hit an economic boom.
Axes to the forehead in your future. Don't you get tired of it.

Personally I enjoyed the softballs. Thanks.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

Post by noddy »

in aus the left are wedging apart with the ultra wet left economically liberal loons moving to the green party and leaving the old school catholic lefties and unionists in the labour party (democrats)

the right wing wedged ages ago into rural conservatives and independants and they have since formed coalitions and this isnt a big problem as it lets them break per issue yet allow the shared ground to happen.

mr p, i think you are missing the forest for the trees on this one - of course the right wing splits will still choose to align themselves and form a 2 party reality, the only main change is on some issues they will choose not to.

in the right wing the common ground between the pro small business libertarian economically conversative people and the social conservatives is sometimes pretty fragile.

same goes on the left, the average socially conversative old school unionist is only barely able to speak to feminazi greenies.

the right wing socially liberals and the left wing ones arent that easy to join together because the right wing version is "do whatever you want, just dont expect me to pay for it" and thats called isolation and neglect by the lefties.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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We expect cancelation letters any day. When we tried to get another division written under our current provider, they told us that they saw the writing on the wall and were not interested.

Will clubfooted single mother lesbian Botswanan-peace-corps-workers suddenly shed their Birkenstocks, do you think, or go to absolute war for single payer? How about those architect guys? The legal framework has been set.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Demon of Undoing wrote:We expect cancelation letters any day.
Justice has been done.
When we tried to get another division written under our current provider, they told us that they saw the writing on the wall and were not interested.

Will clubfooted single mother lesbian Botswanan-peace-corps-workers suddenly shed their Birkenstocks, do you think, or go to absolute war for single payer? How about those architect guys? The legal framework has been set.
There will never be single payer in America.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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noddy wrote:in aus the left are wedging apart with the ultra wet left economically liberal loons moving to the green party and leaving the old school catholic lefties and unionists in the labour party (democrats)

the right wing wedged ages ago into rural conservatives and independants and they have since formed coalitions and this isnt a big problem as it lets them break per issue yet allow the shared ground to happen.

mr p, i think you are missing the forest for the trees on this one - of course the right wing splits will still choose to align themselves and form a 2 party reality, the only main change is on some issues they will choose not to.

in the right wing the common ground between the pro small business libertarian economically conversative people and the social conservatives is sometimes pretty fragile.

same goes on the left, the average socially conversative old school unionist is only barely able to speak to feminazi greenies.

the right wing socially liberals and the left wing ones arent that easy to join together because the right wing version is "do whatever you want, just dont expect me to pay for it" and thats called isolation and neglect by the lefties.
TBH I can't follow a single thing in here.

America is finished, it is bankrupt, the Constitution permanently breached, nothing but implosions ahead, and the end times.

I never got about the end times, what would trigger that level of self destruction the answer came in the left fooling a small percentage of the right.

This VA election just goes to demonstrate that, in a mere academic cataloging of the end times.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:We expect cancelation letters any day.
Justice has been done.
When we tried to get another division written under our current provider, they told us that they saw the writing on the wall and were not interested.

Will clubfooted single mother lesbian Botswanan-peace-corps-workers suddenly shed their Birkenstocks, do you think, or go to absolute war for single payer? How about those architect guys? The legal framework has been set.
There will never be single payer in America.

I'm sorry, that's right. You only see what you want to see. I call this a win. You know why?

The quickest way to lose respect for the law is to create unjust ones. If this law is unjust, it will cause irreparable damage- far beyond the corrosion of the WoD, drones or your bullcrap tax worries- to the people's willingness to live within the law. If it lays down like that, I win.

If it does not come off as unjust, and the people modify and accept it, then this is what we call " a functioning system", just not for old white people like you. Deal with demographics, baby. This land ain't your land, you just pretended it was after the Russians wore down the Germans. Most of your sentimentality is informed by bad TV, and America was never the entity for whom you seem to be carrying all this nostalgia.

They call it democracy. Not my idea, I'd prefer something much different if I'd had my druthers. But I don't get my druthers, there's no combination of actions that can bring my druthers to reality, and you know what, champ? Neither is there for yours. Demographics, bitchez.

Everybody that might conceivably lose in this gig did more than enough to deserve punishment. I like punishment. It sorts out the assholes and the cowards. Either this thing will fly or turn into a lawn dart. I made my bets.

Take solace, honky. It was going to be this or something else. I'm now engaging in civil disobedience, and will have tons of company. We're even going to have a poker night, at which I expect to lose my welcome after the first hour.

Go get drunk or something and quit whining.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Yeah, yeah, I know, you don't have the heart to be a leftist. You have the heart to shoot a starving family in the face with a $ 3k sniper rifle, but not to be a leftist, or a character from a badly-written fantasy novel, or whatever mental game you're playing today.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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80/20 rule says that people like myself have to look out for the 80%. You don't seem to realize that many innocent people will be hurt here, severely. I'm the champion of the innocent, I'm not sure what you champion exactly.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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Repentance.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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Smells more like self flagellation.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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Demon of Undoing wrote:Yeah, yeah, I know, you don't have the heart to be a leftist. You have the heart to shoot a starving family in the face with a $ 3k sniper rifle, but not to be a leftist, or a character from a badly-written fantasy novel, or whatever mental game you're playing today.
Let me know how many people Noah let into the ark after the rain started.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:Yeah, yeah, I know, you don't have the heart to be a leftist. You have the heart to shoot a starving family in the face with a $ 3k sniper rifle, but not to be a leftist, or a character from a badly-written fantasy novel, or whatever mental game you're playing today.
Let me know how many people Noah let into the ark after the rain started.
So you're wanting to be like Noah now?

Not Christ?
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Whatever lets you kill people, I guess.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

Post by Mr. Perfect »

Demon of Undoing wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:Yeah, yeah, I know, you don't have the heart to be a leftist. You have the heart to shoot a starving family in the face with a $ 3k sniper rifle, but not to be a leftist, or a character from a badly-written fantasy novel, or whatever mental game you're playing today.
Let me know how many people Noah let into the ark after the rain started.
So you're wanting to be like Noah now?

Not Christ?
Who did Noah work for. What did Christ do to those with no oil.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

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Demon of Undoing wrote:Whatever lets you kill people, I guess.
Well it wasn't my idea. A liberal told me once he would send hispanic gangs out to kill christian conservatives in the future. I looked into it and it seemed like a promise more than a threat. It's entirely up to them. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:
Mr. Perfect wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:Yeah, yeah, I know, you don't have the heart to be a leftist. You have the heart to shoot a starving family in the face with a $ 3k sniper rifle, but not to be a leftist, or a character from a badly-written fantasy novel, or whatever mental game you're playing today.
Let me know how many people Noah let into the ark after the rain started.
So you're wanting to be like Noah now?

Not Christ?
Who did Noah work for. What did Christ do to those with no oil.
Nothing, bonehead. It was a parable. He was not in the story. He used it to teach a very limited point. You might want to learn more about his parables than what you are teaching at Sunday school, it's something you consistently get wrong.

Oh, and since you screwed up another parable and bragged about it, remember when you said Jesus never taught anything in a parable that was illegal or wrong? You forgot this.

I dunno, in your world, maybe that's a sanction on theft.
Last edited by Demon of Undoing on Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Third Party costs GOP prime Governorship

Post by Demon of Undoing »

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Demon of Undoing wrote:Whatever lets you kill people, I guess.
Well it wasn't my idea. A liberal told me once he would send hispanic gangs out to kill christian conservatives in the future. I looked into it and it seemed like a promise more than a threat. It's entirely up to them. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

You aren't talking about Latino gangs when you are talking about starving refugees. Maybe you ought to take your own fantasies more seriously. You might be able to eventually do without fantasies at all.
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