On the Nature of Things | Forum

I have left out many due to the limits of the forum software. Turkey and Iran of course being the mostly obvious scenarios.

ME countries are under attack from the Russian Federation?

YMix wrote:ME countries are under attack from the Russian Federation?

Did Hitler stop at Poland and say "that it is enough"? Beside Obama lead the Ukrainians to believe(rightly or wrongly) that the US would defend them should Russia invade. So yes it is a perfectly valid question. After all isn't it best to be very clear about such things?

Hitler invaded a couple of other countries because they were... ummm... close to Germany. The Russian Federation is not close to the Middle East. What exactly do you expect the Russians to do? Send their carrier battle groups and marines to the Eastern Mediterranean, the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf? Oh, wait, they only have one carrier. And their marines are... something I've never head of. I guess they must have some kind of seaborne infantry, but I don't remember reading anything about its operations. Sorry to derail the thread, but, as far as I know, the RF is kinda low on power projection.

YMix wrote:Hitler invaded a couple of other countries because they were... ummm... close to Germany. The Russian Federation is not close to the Middle East. What exactly do you expect the Russians to do? Send their carrier battle groups and marines to the Eastern Mediterranean, the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf? Oh, wait, they only have one carrier. And their marines are... something I've never head of. I guess they must have some kind of seaborne infantry, but I don't remember reading anything about its operations. Sorry to derail the thread, but, as far as I know, the RF is kinda low on power projection.

But don't you see- it's Hitler all over again! Hitler! There's no time to reflect on it. It's Hitler all over again! He's climbing in your windows, he's snatching your people up!

hMtZfW2z9dw

Doc wrote:

YMix wrote:ME countries are under attack from the Russian Federation?

Did Hitler stop at Poland and say "that it is enough"? Beside Obama lead the Ukrainians to believe(rightly or wrongly) that the US would defend them should Russia invade. So yes it is a perfectly valid question. After all isn't it best to be very clear about such things?

You are confusing Poland with Czechoslovakia and the Sudetenland incident. Poland was a belli casus for the UK and France when he didn't stop at the Sudetenland, and then Czechoslovakia and so on. Of course, by the end of the war, no one seemed to remember all those promises made to the Polish.

Not only did Hitler and the Nazis campaign on a "Greater Germany", he also made his opinion of his neighboring "races" pretty clear. It says a lot that he couldn't flip more groups to his side on the Eastern Front.

I heard the opinion that Putin is trying to establish a state similar to Israel, where the Russian government is open and protective of her people at home and abroad. The big difference is that he fully embraces that Russia is traditionally multiethnic, something he tries to embrace. (Whether it is cynical or not is another matter.)

This is a completely different tactic than the Nazi's Greater Germany.

...Doc, really, would Hitler have sent in unmarked troops into the Sudentenland to have some sort of lawyerly defense so as not to run afoul of international law? Nothing about this situation matches that one, except we got a lot of people projecting that one onto this one because they really seem to enjoy the idea of total war between Russia and the US/EU.

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:

YMix wrote:Hitler invaded a couple of other countries because they were... ummm... close to Germany. The Russian Federation is not close to the Middle East. What exactly do you expect the Russians to do? Send their carrier battle groups and marines to the Eastern Mediterranean, the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf? Oh, wait, they only have one carrier. And their marines are... something I've never head of. I guess they must have some kind of seaborne infantry, but I don't remember reading anything about its operations. Sorry to derail the thread, but, as far as I know, the RF is kinda low on power projection.

But don't you see- it's Hitler all over again! Hitler! There's no time to reflect on it. It's Hitler all over again! He's climbing in your windows, he's snatching your people up!

Just a question NS. But you do realize that Russia in the form of the CIS shares borders with both Iran and Turkey don't you?



Hence my original statement in the initial post of this thread:

Turkey and Iran of course being the mostly obvious scenarios.

I am not even the first person to mention a Russian attack on Saudi Arabia

viewtopic.php?p=70841#p70841

But you are quite right about the Russians abilities in the form of non existent air craft battle groups and marine battalions.

NapLajoieonSteroids wrote:

Doc wrote:

YMix wrote:ME countries are under attack from the Russian Federation?

Did Hitler stop at Poland and say "that it is enough"? Beside Obama lead the Ukrainians to believe(rightly or wrongly) that the US would defend them should Russia invade. So yes it is a perfectly valid question. After all isn't it best to be very clear about such things?

You are confusing Poland with Czechoslovakia and the Sudetenland incident. Poland was a belli casus for the UK and France when he didn't stop at the Sudetenland, and then Czechoslovakia and so on. Of course, by the end of the war, no one seemed to remember all those promises made to the Polish.

Exactly. Promises made Promises forgotten. France and England did declare war over the invasion of Poland. In fact France moved at least 100 meters into the Saarland before stopping. Something about needing time to evacuate the children from Paris before getting serious about fighting the Germans.

Not only did Hitler and the Nazis campaign on a "Greater Germany", he also made his opinion of his neighboring "races" pretty clear. It says a lot that he couldn't flip more groups to his side on the Eastern Front.

Indeed The Ukrainians welcomed the Nazi as liberators from Stalin initially until Stalin faked a massacre of Ukrainians at the hand of Soldiers dressed in German uniforms. Hmmm sounds familiar somehow.....

I heard the opinion that Putin is trying to establish a state similar to Israel, where the Russian government is open and protective of her people at home and abroad. The big difference is that he fully embraces that Russia is traditionally multiethnic, something he tries to embrace. (Whether it is cynical or not is another matter.)

Given the foreign bank accounts of his cronies I think I will stick with cynical

This is a completely different tactic than the Nazi's Greater Germany.

Really?

...Doc, really, would Hitler have sent in unmarked troops into the Sudentenland to have some sort of lawyerly defense so as not to run afoul of international law? Nothing about this situation matches that one, except we got a lot of people projecting that one onto this one because they really seem to enjoy the idea of total war between Russia and the US/EU.

War between The US/Eu vs Russia? Oh dear. Perhaps I should expedite my Russian passport ....

Doc wrote:Just a question NS. But you do realize that Russia in the form of the CIS shares borders with both Iran and Turkey don't you?

The CIS is not a military alliance. Whether its members would support a joint attack on the ME or not is up for debate. Right now, I'd say no.

Turkey is a NATO member. Iran... good luck invading it: big country, plenty of population, plenty of weapons, rough terrain, big religious and cultural differences.

YMix wrote:

Doc wrote:Just a question NS. But you do realize that Russia in the form of the CIS shares borders with both Iran and Turkey don't you?

The CIS is not a military alliance. Whether its members would support a joint attack on the ME or not is up for debate. Right now, I'd say no.

Turkey is a NATO member. Iran... good luck invading it: big country, plenty of population, plenty of weapons, rough terrain, big religious and cultural differences.

What about Iran playing Italy to Putin's Germany then? Putin and the Iranian government do have a lot of common enemies. With "Switzerland" in between of course.

The Russian Federation and Iran are hard to invade. That doesn't mean they can launch a successful offensive operation against a relatively strong country. Pushing Georgia and Crimea around doesn't really count.

Doc wrote:I have left out many due to the limits of the forum software. Turkey and Iran of course being the mostly obvious scenarios.

Thank You VERY Much for your post, Doc.

As long as both the US and Turkey are members in good standing of NATO, both Turkey and the US are required/supposed to defend each other from armed attack in Europe and North America.....

Article 5 of the North Atlantic treaty, requiring member states to come to the aid of any member state subject to an armed attack.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

Now if you want to clinton/obama oops I mean lawyer it , one could argue that only a very small part of Turkey is in Europe as opposed to Asia Minor but I contend that would be dishonorable.......

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

Especially since the one time Article 5 has been invoked was after September 11, 2001...


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/North_Atl ... #Article_5

invoked for the first and only time after the 11 September 2001 attacks,[5] after which troops were deployed to Afghanistan under the NATO-led ISAF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

YMix wrote:The Russian Federation and Iran are hard to invade. That doesn't mean they can launch a successful offensive operation against a relatively strong country. Pushing Georgia and Crimea around doesn't really count.

Thank You Very Much for your post, YMix.

hard to invade.

Could depend on what the definition/objectives of an invasion is.....

If it is Something Stupid like Teaching Democracy to Crazy People who aren't that interested it, Building Infrastructure needed at home and otherwise Wasting your time, money & blood.. ......

Then Yes....... Very Hard.....

But if it is Revenge/Toppling the government.........

Or

Seizing/Destroying Resources........

And if one is willing to kick it down a notch

And settle for Raid instead of Invade **

Then maybe easier.......

For example it might be possible for the Russian Federation to invade/raid the Islamic Mickey Mouse Magic Kingdom of Saudi Arabia with the objective of revenge for a terrorist attack in Russia that the Saudis had backed........

Kill as many members of the Royal Family and Jihadi Imams/mad mullahs they can get their hands on.....

Might be able to do much of that without setting foot in Arabia......

Ambush the Sheiks at Banks and Casinos...


Seizing the Oil Resources would be harder........


But destroying them by doing something like having commandos inject radioactive waste into the wells/blow up the refineries might be quite possible.....

AIUI the Saudis already have a Scorched Earth System in place at their Oil Wells and Refineries to prevent them from being seized by a foreign power....

Find and activate that system.........

And Russia wins when the price of oil goes up, making their gas and oil more valuable..........


IMO it would be harder to do this in Iran but perhaps not impossible........

Especially if the Iranians have their own Scorched Earth system.........



**Break & Leave.........

monster_gardener wrote:

Doc wrote:I have left out many due to the limits of the forum software. Turkey and Iran of course being the mostly obvious scenarios.

Thank You VERY Much for your post, Doc.

As long as both the US and Turkey are members in good standing of NATO, both Turkey and the US are required/supposed to defend each other from armed attack in Europe and North America.....

Article 5 of the North Atlantic treaty, requiring member states to come to the aid of any member state subject to an armed attack.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

Now if you want to clinton/obama oops I mean lawyer it , one could argue that only a very small part of Turkey is in Europe as opposed to Asia Minor but I contend that would be dishonorable.......

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

Especially since the one time Article 5 has been invoked was after September 11, 2001...


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/North_Atl ... #Article_5

invoked for the first and only time after the 11 September 2001 attacks,[5] after which troops were deployed to Afghanistan under the NATO-led ISAF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

If you will recall Turkey's membership into the EU was blocked. Prior to that Turkey backed out of allowing US troops to invade Iraq from Turkey. I wonder what kind of SNAFUs that put into the invasion / occupation plans.

As far as ME democracies The invasion was more about people that actually live there making up their own plans for what they want their lives to be about. Instead of them blaming the west for all of their troubles.

Doc wrote:

monster_gardener wrote:

Doc wrote:I have left out many due to the limits of the forum software. Turkey and Iran of course being the mostly obvious scenarios.

Thank You VERY Much for your post, Doc.

As long as both the US and Turkey are members in good standing of NATO, both Turkey and the US are required/supposed to defend each other from armed attack in Europe and North America.....

Article 5 of the North Atlantic treaty, requiring member states to come to the aid of any member state subject to an armed attack.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

Now if you want to clinton/obama oops I mean lawyer it , one could argue that only a very small part of Turkey is in Europe as opposed to Asia Minor but I contend that would be dishonorable.......

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

Especially since the one time Article 5 has been invoked was after September 11, 2001...


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/North_Atl ... #Article_5

invoked for the first and only time after the 11 September 2001 attacks,[5] after which troops were deployed to Afghanistan under the NATO-led ISAF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

If you will recall Turkey's membership into the EU was blocked. Prior to that Turkey backed out of allowing US troops to invade Iraq from Turkey. I wonder what kind of SNAFUs that put into the invasion / occupation plans.

As far as ME democracies The invasion was more about people that actually live there making up their own plans for what they want their lives to be about. Instead of them blaming the west for all of their troubles.

Thank You VERY Much for your post, Doc.

If you will recall Turkey's membership into the EU was blocked.

Yes. Sadly perhaps/probably wise........ Remembering that it was a Turk in the pay of the Soviets who almost killed heroic Pope John Paul II

Prior to that Turkey backed out of allowing US troops to invade Iraq from Turkey.

I remember that also....... Highly Annoying

But to be fair to the Turks, It was Al Queda/Afghanistan who attacked US on 911, not Iraq/Saddam Hussein.....

So not a treaty obligation for Turkey........

Also IIRC the Turks also helped US/UN in the Korean War.......

That said, AIUI the Turks have become less Secular/Kemalist (Wishing all Religion at the Bottom of the Sea) and more Islamic/Problematic.......


Nevertheless UNTIL the NATO treaty or membership is changed, to not honor a treaty obligation would be IMVHO bad business similar to the Red Line Mouthy Blathering of obama the Arrogant, Incompetent, Lazy, LYING, WILLFULLY STUPID, Son of a Bitch Eating Creature from the Chicago Lagoon......

Instead of them blaming the west for all of their troubles.

Although individuals can and do deviate from it, the ME/Muslim cultural norm is that we in the West and elsewhere are mostly infidels of various sorts, who they are supposed to be busy trying to conquer, convert, kill, or extract Jizya tribute from and that Allah is annoyed with them for not doing so.........

monster_gardener wrote:

Doc wrote:

monster_gardener wrote:

Doc wrote:I have left out many due to the limits of the forum software. Turkey and Iran of course being the mostly obvious scenarios.

Thank You VERY Much for your post, Doc.

As long as both the US and Turkey are members in good standing of NATO, both Turkey and the US are required/supposed to defend each other from armed attack in Europe and North America.....

Article 5 of the North Atlantic treaty, requiring member states to come to the aid of any member state subject to an armed attack.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

Now if you want to clinton/obama oops I mean lawyer it , one could argue that only a very small part of Turkey is in Europe as opposed to Asia Minor but I contend that would be dishonorable.......

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security.

Especially since the one time Article 5 has been invoked was after September 11, 2001...


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/North_Atl ... #Article_5

invoked for the first and only time after the 11 September 2001 attacks,[5] after which troops were deployed to Afghanistan under the NATO-led ISAF.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

If you will recall Turkey's membership into the EU was blocked. Prior to that Turkey backed out of allowing US troops to invade Iraq from Turkey. I wonder what kind of SNAFUs that put into the invasion / occupation plans.

As far as ME democracies The invasion was more about people that actually live there making up their own plans for what they want their lives to be about. Instead of them blaming the west for all of their troubles.

Thank You VERY Much for your post, Doc.

If you will recall Turkey's membership into the EU was blocked.

Yes. Sadly perhaps/probably wise........ Remembering that it was a Turk in the pay of the Soviets who almost killed heroic Pope John Paul II

Prior to that Turkey backed out of allowing US troops to invade Iraq from Turkey.

I remember that also....... Highly Annoying

But to be fair to the Turks, It was Al Queda/Afghanistan who attacked US on 911, not Iraq/Saddam Hussein.....

So not a treaty obligation for Turkey........

Also IIRC the Turks also helped US/UN in the Korean War.......

That said, AIUI the Turks have become less Secular/Kemalist (Wishing all Religion at the Bottom of the Sea) and more Islamic/Problematic.......


Nevertheless UNTIL the NATO treaty or membership is changed, to not honor a treaty obligation would be IMVHO bad business similar to the Red Line Mouthy Blathering of obama the Arrogant, Incompetent, Lazy, LYING, WILLFULLY STUPID, Son of a Bitch Eating Creature from the Chicago Lagoon......

If Turkey was invaded you can be sure that Obama would find a way to avoid the obligation with a presidential directive. You must always remember this Administration does not feel obligated to enforce the constitution of this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_of ... ted_States

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:— “I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”

Which means that any treaty with the US under this administration is not worth the paper it is written on.

Perhaps I was too limited in the scope of my question

March 21, 2014, 06:00 am
Putin’s quiet Latin America play

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/po ... in-america

Hat tip to Mr. P.

.

Last 75 yrs, all Middle East, all those countries mentioned above, were in American camp.

And look where ME is right now

90% of ME in ruin .. all happening on America's watch

90% of all ME in poverty and ruin, at the same time America and West becoming richer and richer

Well,

Doc

What about asking which of those "People" need protection from you guys

You might imagine people of Saudi Arabia or Qatar swimming in Oil money .. ain't so, they poor .. but the Sheiks and Amirs and Kings and (30,000) Princes (your SOB) swimming in 1500 foot yachts and private B747


“In short, the New World Order – a shadowy group of global banking oligarchs bent on establishing a one-world dictatorship – is trying to overthrow every leader on earth who resists.
Russian President Putin is resisting.
That is why the Western propaganda machine is calling him names,”

March 21, 2014, 06:00 am

Putin’s quiet Latin America play

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/po ... in-america

It is no good to have only ONE "Pole" .. if so, no "checks and balances"

It is in everybodies interest, am sure in American people's interest too, that the world has 3 poles (2 Poles dangerous)

The way things developing .. there will be at least 3 but probably 5+ poles

- America and friends (probably Canada , Mexico, maybe Australia, New zeland)

- Europe and Friends (some eastern Europeans, some north Africans, some Latin Americans, etc)

- Russia and Friends (central Asia, KavKaz, some ex USSR, a bit Iran, etc)

- China and Friends (Korea, Vietnam, hopefully Japan, Indonesia, Philippine, Thailand, India, Cambodia, etc)

- Iran and friends (Turkey, all Middle East, some African, a bit India, Pakistan)

- Brazil and Friends (South American nations, a bit Europe, a bit America)

These will be future alliances and it is good so for everybody including America

Also, the more Polls the less danger of wars


BTW, wouldn't be surprised if Putin, similar to Cuba crisis, puts nuclear missiles in Venezuela .. deal would be NATO retreats in return nuke missiles out of Venezuela .. Kennedy/Khrushchev deal, same time nuclear missiles retreat from Cuba AND Turkey .. can happen

All this because of that silly argument "missile defense shield system" trying to fool Putin excuse being Iran .. come on, you no dealing with fools

Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Last 75 yrs, all Middle East, all those countries mentioned above, were in American camp.

And look where ME is right now

90% of ME in ruin .. all happening on America's watch

90% of all ME in poverty and ruin, at the same time America and West becoming richer and richer

Well,

Doc

What about asking which of those "People" need protection from you guys

You might imagine people of Saudi Arabia or Qatar swimming in Oil money .. ain't so, they poor .. but the Sheiks and Amirs and Kings and (30,000) Princes (your SOB) swimming in 1500 foot yachts and private B747


“In short, the New World Order – a shadowy group of global banking oligarchs bent on establishing a one-world dictatorship – is trying to overthrow every leader on earth who resists.
Russian President Putin is resisting.
That is why the Western propaganda machine is calling him names,”

The US is gone. Time for the peoples of the ME to grow up and take care of themselves rather than find others to blame for their largely self inflicted troubles.

March 21, 2014, 06:00 am

Putin’s quiet Latin America play

Read more: http://thehill.com/blogs/defcon-hill/po ... in-america

Doc wrote:

Heracleum Persicum wrote:.

Last 75 yrs, all Middle East, all those countries mentioned above, were in American camp.

And look where ME is right now

90% of ME in ruin .. all happening on America's watch

90% of all ME in poverty and ruin, at the same time America and West becoming richer and richer

Well,

Doc

What about asking which of those "People" need protection from you guys

You might imagine people of Saudi Arabia or Qatar swimming in Oil money .. ain't so, they poor .. but the Sheiks and Amirs and Kings and (30,000) Princes (your SOB) swimming in 1500 foot yachts and private B747


“In short, the New World Order – a shadowy group of global banking oligarchs bent on establishing a one-world dictatorship – is trying to overthrow every leader on earth who resists.
Russian President Putin is resisting.
That is why the Western propaganda machine is calling him names,”

The US is gone.

Gone where ?

what's 5th fleet doing in 14th province of Iran (Bahrain) .. let 5th fleet go home and Bahraini people decide (Crimea, here we come )

Doc wrote:
Time for the peoples of the ME to grow up and take care of themselves rather than find others to blame for their largely self inflicted troubles.

seconded

look, Doc, you and Azari on the same page, more so than you think .. Iranians don't want "milk" America .. Iran wants a "partner" America, an "honest" partner .. if so, Iran will shape the whole Middle East, nobody else has the "civilizational dept" to be able to pull it through, Iran is the heart of the matter as Germany in Europe is .. but , Doc, nothing is for free, pay the price, it ain't getting cheaper .. what price ? ? Iranians prefer GE/Westinghouse nuclear power-stations to Russian ones, what about a dozen of them ? ? ? for your past sins

russia can have as many 'stans as it wants, if they are mad enough to try, im cynical enough to watch them with shaudenfraude

noddy wrote:russia can have as many 'stans as it wants, if they are mad enough to try, im cynical enough to watch them with shaudenfraude

Thank You Very MUCH for your post.

schadenfreude

Not me........ Not this time.......

NO help for the Islamic 'stans'!.....

No Stinger missiles.......

Or similar....

Nothing.......


In fact if we/US really want to Reset Relations with Russia

We should Defend Our Right to Arm Bears!

And help out........

Try to block funds and jihadis from here like the vile Tsarnev brothers and Adam Gadahn .........

Maybe more.......